Primordial Goo --> Life?

[medicalmatt]

Ok, I started this topic in the evolution thread, but really it's not about evolution. Of course, if you want to take evolution and get "no God" from it, you have to believe that living cells spontaneously threw themselves together from primordial goo. Here's my posting from the evolution thread, suggesting just the tip of the iceberg as to why this can't be. I would love to hear thoughts, challenges, or questions! I'm a medical student, so this stuff I love. I'd be happy to explain (very simply...I'm a tutor as well so I can do that!) any of the basic processes of life, or the basic components of a cell, etc, for you less-scientifically-knowledgeable, if you're interested!Let's consider the idea of ireducible complexity. Consider DNA alone. In order to have life, you need thousands of enzymes (enzymes are proteins that speed up chemical reactions). Let's assume the (impossible) case that SOMEHOW, a bacterial cell arose, complete with plasma membrane, DNA, ribosomes, microtubules, etc etc etc, and all the enzymes required for metabolism, movement, degradation, etc etc. But even if you somehow randomly got all those enzymes together, you would also have to have the DNA there to be passed on to daughter cells, or else this life that somehow came to be, would simply die and nothing would come of it. So, not only would you need the basic components of a cell, not only would you need the DNA that somehow magically codes for those same components, but you would also need the machinery to copy the DNA. Here's just a couple of the enzymes required in prokaryotic (the most basic bacterial) cells.DNA Polymerase, the basic replicator: Note that this image also includes a section of DNA

Helicase, Required to open up the DNA so that it can be replicated. Don't forget all the proteins required to KEEP it open, once it's been opened:

Here's a Ribosome, required to translate the DNA into proteins. (I know I said that this was just going to be DNA replication enzymes, but I couldn't help throwing this in there...having DNA is worthless if you can't translate it!

So, you want to tell me that even these three things all happened to spontaneously form at the same time? Let alone the thousands of similar molecules that would be required to sustain and propogate a cell. Yes, these are mere molecules, composed of mere atoms. But still...dang. You see?

 

[treeoflife]

Primordial Goo... It sounds like one of those "candy fads" that you can get at conveniences stores. Kinda sweet... but mostly sour. And, not an ounce of nutrition!Of course, I agree with your post's intent. Life is very complex. That's because it was created by an amazingly brilliant God.

 

[medicalmatt]

Amen to that. I find my awe when I'm deep in my studies is the source of some of my most profound worship.

 

[treeoflife]

Feel so helpless... sometimes when you're trying to break someone of their evolutionary brainwashing... it's just like hitting your head against a brickwall.I was studying to major in biology before we decided to take a different route... but these things always confounded me how someone could think on them, and honestly arrive at no hand of God involved.

 

[ForYou]

I find it pointless to look into life for reasons God has already told us. We were made.We were there by God. There is no way we could just somehow be created. Our teacher has taught us about all the DNA. The structure,the types of RNA,how it is transfered it wold be impossible for it to just randomly be created then make shape. Just like a chicken can not come unless it is from an egg. We are not goo then into humans. God made us and The chicken.

 

[treeoflife]

(ForYou;48673)
I find it pointless to look into life for reasons God has already told us. We were made.We were there by God. There is no way we could just somehow be created. Our teacher has taught us about all the DNA. The structure,the types of RNA,how it is transfered it wold be impossible for it to just randomly be created then make shape. Just like a chicken can not come unless it is from an egg. We are not goo then into humans. God made us and The chicken.
:amen:

 

[Lunar]

(treeoflife;48669)
Feel so helpless... sometimes when you're trying to break someone of their evolutionary brainwashing... it's just like hitting your head against a brickwall.
Hey, you know, this is a forum for Christians to discuss things with non-Christians, not for Christians to sit around and make fun of non-Christians. All I've seen is you guys patting each other on the back and thumbing your noses at people who believe in evolution. Can't you see that calling it "brainwashing" is flamebait?And speaking of "banging your head against the wall," that's pretty much how I feel repeating over and over that evolution and abiogenesis are separate theories, and having it be continually ignored. The incompleteness of abiogenesis theory is not evidence against evolution. I just posted a whole host of instances of sub-optimal design and vestigial traits in the other thread which you conveniently ignored in favor of making a point about the semantics of dog breeding. Maybe you should take a second look at it.Anyways. medicalmatt, if what you are asking for is a comprehensive scientific account of the chemical evolution of DNA, we're all in agreement that the scientific community doesn't have one. This, of course, doesn't mean that we never can find a comprehensive account for it, and it definitely doesn't mean that the best explanation is God.As far as your particular argument goes, you are arguing that DNA is a complex nucleic acid with many interweaving parts like the DNA polymerase, the helicase, the ribosome, etc. which are all required in order for it to be functional. The fallacy that this commits is very well elaborated in the video I'm about to link you. This video discusses it in the context of biological evolution but I think you can see how the same principles apply to chemical evolution:http://youtube.com/watch?v=RQQ7ubVIqo4Basically, your argument only holds if each constituent part could only ever serve one function: the interdependent function which it currently serves in DNA. This is a pretty huge assumption to make! It is entirely possible that the constituent parts of DNA are capable of existing, either in their current form or in some slightly different form, independently.

 

[Wakka]

This is another fact of irreversible complexity. A single cellular organism cannot have evolved from anything simpler. The reason being that every unicellular organism has hundreds upon thousands of individual moving parts that all rely on each other. Without those parts, the cell wouldn't be able to function, breed, or feed.

 

[Lunar]

(Wakka;48693)
This is another fact of irreversible complexity. A single cellular organism cannot have evolved from anything simpler. The reason being that every unicellular organism has hundreds upon thousands of individual moving parts that all rely on each other. Without those parts, the cell wouldn't be able to function, breed, or feed.
*facepalms*Wakka, did you read the thread?