Protestants and Catholics in Agreement on This...

[Enoch111]

It is unwise and unnecessary as the word of God has all we need to understand the path we are to walk.

In that case you will have to show a CLEAR INJUNCTION TO CHRISTIANS -- within the New Testament -- to observe the 7th day Sabbath. You will find no such thing.

At the same time, when the issue of the application of the Law of Moses to Gentiles was brought up (and the Law of Moses makes it clear that the sabbath was given to ISRAEL), here is what the Holy Spirit, the apostles, the elders, and the whole of the Jerusalem Church decreed:

ACTS 15:5-34
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe... Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?...

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:... Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood...

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner;

The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

We should take careful note of TWO THINGS in this passage of Scripture:
1. Sabbath observance is EXCLUDED.
2. Those who insist on observing the entire Law of Moses SUBVERT the souls of Christians. Therefore Sabbatarianism is subversion.

 

[quietthinker]

In that case you will have to show a CLEAR INJUNCTION TO CHRISTIANS -- within the New Testament -- to observe the 7th day Sabbath. You will find no such thing.

At the same time, when the issue of the application of the Law of Moses to Gentiles was brought up (and the Law of Moses makes it clear that the sabbath was given to ISRAEL), here is what the Holy Spirit, the apostles, the elders, and the whole of the Jerusalem Church decreed:

ACTS 15:5-34
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe... Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?...

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:... Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood...

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner;

The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

We should take careful note of TWO THINGS in this passage of Scripture:
1. Sabbath observance is EXCLUDED.
2. Those who insist on observing the entire Law of Moses SUBVERT the souls of Christians. Therefore Sabbatarianism is subversion.

You confuse ceremonial law with the Decalogue.

If keeping the Sabbath is a subversion then so are all the other nine commandments.

 

[Philip James]

Its not the letter of the Law, but the Spirit of the Law that matters...

Love God!
Love one another!

Peace!

 

[Enoch111]

You confuse ceremonial law with the Decalogue.

Not at all. What were the marks of the Sabbath? It was to be a day set apart (sanctified and regarded as holy) for (a) worship, (b) rest, and (c) good works. This was according to Christ Himself, who healed on sabbath days, but also attended the synagogue and rested.

So when a Christian applies those same principles to the Christian Sabbath (on the Lord's Day) he or she is observing the spirit of the Sabbath commandment.

If keeping the Sabbath is a subversion then so are all the other nine commandments.

What you are clearly forgetting is that the 6th day Sabbath was given to Israel very specifically. But that also required observing the whole Law of Moses. Please note:

EXODUS 31
12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Now if you wish to consider yourself an Israelite, you will need to keep the WHOLE Law. Chances are you will fail, but you will be held accountable. But Paul tells Christians to disregard those who insist on Sabbatarianism: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[quietthinker]

I see you are familiar with the pronouncements in Exodus 31.
I hope you have read them well given that Paul refers to the real Israel as God’s Church.

Also, I assume your reference to the 6th day Sabbath at the beginning of your post is a miss type?

 

[brakelite]

In that case you will have to show a CLEAR INJUNCTION TO CHRISTIANS -- within the New Testament -- to observe the 7th day Sabbath. You will find no such thing.

At the same time, when the issue of the application of the Law of Moses to Gentiles was brought up (and the Law of Moses makes it clear that the sabbath was given to ISRAEL), here is what the Holy Spirit, the apostles, the elders, and the whole of the Jerusalem Church decreed:

ACTS 15:5-34
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe... Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?...

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:... Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood...

Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote letters by them after this manner;

The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.

We should take careful note of TWO THINGS in this passage of Scripture:
1. Sabbath observance is EXCLUDED.
2. Those who insist on observing the entire Law of Moses SUBVERT the souls of Christians. Therefore Sabbatarianism is subversion.

In reference to your statement immediately above, that the "Sabbath is excluded", I beg to differ, for you omitted a very significant text in your quote from Acts 15 above. Allow me to quote the full context....
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

So why is it that the council mentioned only these four things that newly converted Gentiles were to observe? What about matters of honesty? Were new coverts immune from being thieves or liars? What about matters of being kind and loving? What about being forgiving to others? Why did the council not mention them? And why, as you also question, did they not mention Sabbath keeping? Well my friend the answer is in the very next verse, the one you missed...

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Every Sabbath day in the synagogues newly converted Gentiles were meeting together with newly converted Jews and traditional Jews, learning from the law and the prophets, everything concerning Christ and His mission. Moses was still preaching through his writings. Every Sabbath. The Gentiles didn't need to hear again any instruction on Sabbath keeping (or any other matter) as they were already observing it, and were already being taught those other matters from God's word. Every Sabbath. This is confirmed here...

Ac 13:42,43 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath, and the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

With the recent spate of disagreement and debate between Catholics and Protestants, I thought I would venture into new territory. Something that doctrinally, they agree on. Sunday sacredness. The following is an abridged catechism from the 17th century, the full version of which was fully accepted with the church as reflecting accurately the teachings of the Council of Trent.

"QUESTION: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
"ANSWER: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.

"QUESTION: How prove you that?
"ANSWER: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power."--Henry Tuberville, D. D., "An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine"

The author of the Baptist Manual, Dr. Edward Hiscox, agrees with the above...quote from an address to a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

I sure you are not trying to say that we have to observe any one day of the week whether it be Saturday or Sunday in order to be saved. If that were true then there would have been no need for our Lord Jesus Christ to come and die for us. Living a Christian Life is not observing one day of the week as holy but living everyday as holy because when God stated on the Sabbath day he began resting and that God was talking of some 24 hour day when he said that, then you're wrong because that Sabbath day rest has been going still and it's been 6000 years now, so God was not speaking of some 24 hour day although some may disagree believing we have to recognize one 24 hour day in order to remain in God's rest or Holiness.

 

[quietthinker]

I sure you are not trying to say that we have to observe any one day of the week whether it be Saturday or Sunday in order to be saved. If that were true then there would have been no need for our Lord Jesus Christ to come and die for us. Living a Christian Life is not observing one day of the week as holy but living everyday as holy because when God stated on the Sabbath day he began resting and that God was talking of some 24 hour day when he said that, then you're wrong because that Sabbath day rest has been going still and it's been 6000 years now, so God was not speaking of some 24 hour day although some may disagree believing we have to recognize one 24 hour day in order to remain in God's rest or Holiness.

For its purpose Barney, the commandment is as clear as the other nine.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

For its purpose Barney, the commandment is as clear as the other nine.

For its purpose Barney, the commandment is as clear as the other nine.

What I believe is that Sabbath day of rest the scriptures state after God finished creating has been going on for 6000 years and we are still in that resting so like l said we should live as though each day is Holy not just one. The people changing to start meeting on a Sunday rather than on Saturday or the church establishing festivals doesn't change the fact we live everyday as being Holy.

 

[brakelite]

I sure you are not trying to say that we have to observe any one day of the week whether it be Saturday or Sunday in order to be saved.

No. What I was saying is that Protestants and Catholics agree that Sunday is a man-made institution having no basis in scripture. Therefore that being the case, the 4th commandment stands as it did throughout the life of Moses, the prophets, Jesus, the early apostolic church, and the church in the wilderness these past 1800 years or so.

we should live as though each day is Holy not just one

Yes, we should live holy lives. But the 4th commandment isn't about living a holy life. Its about keeping a day holy. It is the day which the commandment requires we keep holy, having already being made holy by our Creator. One specific day that Catholics and Protestants both recognise as being the 7th day of the week, the Sabbath. What you do with that information may well affect your salvation, depending on factors such as understanding, knowledge, motive, and heart attitude. But such decisions are above my pay-grade. That said, a commandment is a commandment. Not a suggestion.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

No. What I was saying is that Protestants and Catholics agree that Sunday is a man-made institution having no basis in scripture. Therefore that being the case, the 4th commandment stands as it did throughout the life of Moses, the prophets, Jesus, the early apostolic church, and the church in the wilderness these past 1800 years or so.



Yes, we should live holy lives. But the 4th commandment isn't about living a holy life. Its about keeping a day holy. It is the day which the commandment requires we keep holy, having already being made holy by our Creator. One specific day that Catholics and Protestants both recognise as being the 7th day of the week, the Sabbath. What you do with that information may well affect your salvation, depending on factors such as understanding, knowledge, motive, and heart attitude. But such decisions are above my pay-grade. That said, a commandment is a commandment. Not a suggestion.

It still seems to me that you are saying that the recognition of a 24 hour day of the week is what affects your salvation and I disagree with that not even obeying a law including the Sabbath day law, which was given only to the nation of Israel, not the nation of Israel and the gentile Nations can save you. The law covenant which includes the Sabbath day law was never given as something to save us, but to show how much we needed a deliverer to come and live by that law perfectly so the one who lived by that law covenant perfectly could then be sacrificed to cover all mankind's sins

 

[brakelite]

@BARNEY BRIGHT Before we go any further, I think you need to clarify three questions.
1. What are we being saved from...and
2. What are we being saved for...and
3. How is that affected?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@BARNEY BRIGHT Before we go any further, I think you need to clarify three questions.
1. What are we being saved from...and
2. What are we being saved for...and
3. How is that affected?

Salvation is provided by Jehovah through Jesus Christ for “all sorts of men.” (1Ti 4:10) He saves them from sin and death (Ro 8:2), from Babylon the Great (Re 18:2, 4), from this world under Satan’s control (Joh 17:16; Col 1:13), and from destruction and everlasting death (Re 7:14-17; 21:3, 4).

Why did God create us in the first place. We all know, God is love so God created because he wanted to express that love of life with other intelligent beings so that they (Angels & humans) would experience love, first for their creator then for each other and continue to progress in that love that is eternal showing the love compassion Mercy that God first showed his creation. We can't show that love perfectly right now but after the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ we all Angels and humans will be able to express that love perfectly. Isn't this what God created us for to express that love for God and then each other, so isn't that why God is saving mankind for, so that expression of God love can continue for eternity, through out his creation.

 

[Enoch111]

So why is it that the council mentioned only these four things that newly converted Gentiles were to observe? What about matters of honesty? Were new coverts immune from being thieves or liars? What about matters of being kind and loving? What about being forgiving to others? Why did the council not mention them?

The council did not need to mention any of this, since they are all covered under the Ten Commandments, and those Ten were distilled into the Two Greatest, which became the Law of Christ. As to the Sabbath, the Lord's Day (the first day of the week) became the Christian Sabbath therefore it was excluded from the commandments for Gentiles (and later for all Christian churches).

Every Sabbath day in the synagogues newly converted Gentiles were meeting together with newly converted Jews and traditional Jews, learning from the law and the prophets, everything concerning Christ and His mission.

This was only in THE VERY EARLY STAGES. After the churches were established, Christians were not attending synagogues. So let's not start confusing things with Moses being read in the synagogues. What you failed to recall is what Peter said about the Old Covenant:

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?...

So if you wish to put that yoke of the Old Covenant upon your own neck and observe Sabbath-keeping, that would be your choice. But at the same time, God would expect you to obey every injunction in the Law of Moses.