Questions on oaths

[PS95]

Matt 5:33-37 Jesus taught us this--

33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

James repeated it- James 5:12-

12But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Many years ago I had to go to court- I didn't swear on the bible because of those words above. I affirmed, instead.
I got some dirty looks for it.
Anyway- I have heard people say things like- that doesn't mean you can take an oath- it just means to tell the truth.
I don't see that when I read those. I see, don't swear an oath. Of course, we should be honest, but don't swear an oath.

What do you think?

and.. is reciting the marriage vows swearing an oath?

 

[RepentingChristian]

I don't understand the explanation in the verses.

 

[PS95]

I don't understand the explanation in the verses.

Hmm well let's see.. I'm no expert on this as you can see, hence my Q- but I'll take a stab-

33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

Jesus is saying that in the old covenant- they were told to be truthful in making a vow.-- OK
and to honor your vows--- OK
but now- Jesus said
make no oaths at all. OK
not by heaven - or earth- or Jerusalem-- OK
not by your head -- I am gonna assume and not by your mother's grave...etc or on a bible.. OK
Just always be honest- say yes, if you mean yes, and no if you mean no. -OK

I don't know what I'm missing but it seems pretty clear cut. Don't do it. anything beyond yes or no is evil. WHY? Idk for sure- but if He doesn't like it then I don't either. Could be because someone who is asking you to swear is saying that you would not be truthful otherwise? Or is it to protect us from being put in a bad position? IDK

James-12But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Again- No oaths. James even says" ABOVE ALL" ?
just tell the truth by yes and no
fall under judgment.. we don't want that.

If they were only teaching us to tell the truth always when swearing an oath or vow-- then why not just say that? It can't be. what do you think?

 

[Ziggy]

Matt 5:33-37 Jesus taught us this--

33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

James repeated it- James 5:12-

12But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Many years ago I had to go to court- I didn't swear on the bible because of those words above. I affirmed, instead.
I got some dirty looks for it.
Anyway- I have heard people say things like- that doesn't mean you can take an oath- it just means to tell the truth.
I don't see that when I read those. I see, don't swear an oath. Of course, we should be honest, but don't swear an oath.

What do you think?

and.. is reciting the marriage vows swearing an oath?

I just started a thread on Unclean Lips before I came across this thread.

Lev 5:4
Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.

NLT puts it this way:

NLT
“Or suppose you make a foolish vow of any kind, whether its purpose is for good or for bad. When you realize its foolishness, you must admit your guilt.

and.. is reciting the marriage vows swearing an oath?

Until death do you part. Well, death comes in a lot of different forms. Physically and spiritually.
Sometimes a marriage dies.

Deu 24:1
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Mat 19:7
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

1 Corinthians chapter 7 has a lot to say about putting away one's wife.

Lot of things cause divorces. It usually begins in the heart though.
Discontentment, growing apart, not having a good foundation.
A lot of cultures don't marry for love they marry for progeny, to multiply the numbers.
Some just prefer different flavors of the week.

Question is? What was the hardness of their heart that caused Moses to give them a bill of divorcement?

Hugs

 

[RepentingChristian]

Hmm well let's see.. I'm no expert on this as you can see, hence my Q- but I'll take a stab-

33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

Jesus is saying that in the old covenant- they were told to be truthful in making a vow.-- OK
and to honor your vows--- OK
but now- Jesus said
make no oaths at all. OK
not by heaven - or earth- or Jerusalem-- OK
not by your head -- I am gonna assume and not by your mother's grave...etc or on a bible.. OK
Just always be honest- say yes, if you mean yes, and no if you mean no. -OK

I don't know what I'm missing but it seems pretty clear cut. Don't do it. anything beyond yes or no is evil. WHY? Idk for sure- but if He doesn't like it then I don't either. Could be because someone who is asking you to swear is saying that you would not be truthful otherwise? Or is it to protect us from being put in a bad position? IDK

James-12But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Again- No oaths. James even says" ABOVE ALL" ?
just tell the truth by yes and no
fall under judgment.. we don't want that.

If they were only teaching us to tell the truth always when swearing an oath or vow-- then why not just say that? It can't be. what do you think?

Thanks. Makes sense.

 

[RepentingChristian]

Question is? What was the hardness of their heart that caused Moses to give them a bill of divorcement?

I don't know. What was it?

 

[PS95]

I just started a thread on Unclean Lips before I came across this thread.

Lev 5:4
Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.

NLT puts it this way:

NLT
“Or suppose you make a foolish vow of any kind, whether its purpose is for good or for bad. When you realize its foolishness, you must admit your guilt.

A frivolous oath? That goes along with my thinking when I said a person could be put into a bad position.. when I was a young child my one sister was constantly demanding "swear on the bible"! I didn't even know what a bible was. lol- but I knew that to get her off of my back- I had to say - Yes I do.
--But Jesus didn't say anything about foolish oaths or anything else other than what He did say..
Seems to me He that He forbade it. I know others see it differently but I don't get why they do. Could be that a truthful oath is fine as long as you keep it- but I don't see Jesus saying that here. I could be taking it all wrong. I don't get why he said it that way.

Until death do you part. Well, death comes in a lot of different forms. Physically and spiritually.
Sometimes a marriage dies.

Deu 24:1
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Mat 19:7
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

1 Corinthians chapter 7 has a lot to say about putting away one's wife.

Lot of things cause divorces. It usually begins in the heart though.
Discontentment, growing apart, not having a good foundation.
A lot of cultures don't marry for love they marry for progeny, to multiply the numbers.
Some just prefer different flavors of the week.

Question is? What was the hardness of their heart that caused Moses to give them a bill of divorcement?

Hugs

I was only asking about the marriage vows as an oath before God.
Now that you brought divorce up- I suppose it is yet another good reason not to divorce. Taking an oath/vow before God is a very serious thing. He expects us to fully honor it.- until death we do part is physical death obviously.

That explains frivolous oaths, but it doesn't seem to be what Jesus and James said here.

The divorce topic has been covered here recently. Some go by scripture only and some don't for their own reasons.
According to Jesus, divorce is only allowed for adultery/fornication. If you can't get along for some other reason- you can part with the goal to reconcile- but not remarry. Otherwise it's adultery.
That's what the scriptures say.-

Apparently- the hardness of heart Jesus spoke about with Moses- ..Some interpret “hardness of heart,” of the cruelty of men towards their wives. --But Jesus taught that men were to love their wives as He loves the church. and He said that what Moses taught was not the way God made marriage in the beginning. @Grailhunter talks about that a lot- how men treated their wives in Moses' day.

It's a good thing oaths aren't that common. We see Presidents swear to uphold the Constitution by swearing on a bible... lotta good that does. We do have marriage vows but no one forces anyone to say them a certain way.
and we see it in court, but they do give the option to affirm. Good thing I have no plans to be president. Thanks for your reply, Ziggy.

 

[Ziggy]

According to Jesus, divorce is only allowed for adultery/fornication.

And there always seems to be a dual application.

Because to look at a woman with lust in one's heart is also considered adultery.

I believe there is a difference between making a person to person oath than it is to make an oath to God himself.
For some reason I feel God would be more forgiving if we confessed we lied or had other intensions like trying to get out of a jamb.
Where people tend to be less forgiving for any reason.

So you go to court, swear on the Bible to tell the truth and you get caught lying. What happens?
You go to jail for perjury.
Are you swearing to God or to the judge?

If you don't get caught by the court and you think you are free, I believe you will still be judged for lying.
Some people actually have a conscience and lying, knowingly lying would weigh on their hearts, and they would seek forgiveness before it crushes them.
While others have 0 conscience of doing anything wrong as long as it turns out thier way in the end.


What I would like to know is, Why don't they have a conscience?

Hugs

 

[lforrest]

Matt 5:33-37 Jesus taught us this--

33“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34“But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36“Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37“But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

James repeated it- James 5:12-

12But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

Many years ago I had to go to court- I didn't swear on the bible because of those words above. I affirmed, instead.
I got some dirty looks for it.
Anyway- I have heard people say things like- that doesn't mean you can take an oath- it just means to tell the truth.
I don't see that when I read those. I see, don't swear an oath. Of course, we should be honest, but don't swear an oath.

What do you think?

and.. is reciting the marriage vows swearing an oath?

Jesus saying not to sware oaths, but to let your yes be yes and your no be no, I understand to be instructions to avoid compounding sin upon sin.

When you make a promise and do not keep it that becomes sin. Then an oath is like another layer of sin you voluntarily stack atop it to try and reaffirm your conviction to fulfill that promise.

The affirming in court seems like a good compromise. As you acknowledge that you are to tell the truth and you understand failure to do so is perjury. No additional sin is added.

As for marriage, it is entering into an institution that already has expectations associated with it.
Vows make clear those expectations, and who is witness to them.

Articulating who is witness, and what is promised does not seem to be contrary to the Spirit of the commandment against oaths.

 

[PS95]

And there always seems to be a dual application.

Because to look at a woman with lust in one's heart is also considered adultery.

For sure- and who hasn't done that? But that is between the man and God. No one divorces over a thought, and a born again believer is able to curb those thoughts by power of the Spirit.
Thing is, if a woman is married and the husband is watching porn all day pleasuring himself in the living room- I would say that's grounds to leave him if he wont repent. It's adultery - that's how I see it anyway- and if he is hurting her- then there is no love. What if he is an unbeliever? He has no power over his sin.. It's a tough one. "Only marry in the Lord" is for our own good.
It would be exceptionally hard if she became a beleiver after marriage and he did not.
That "activity" seems to be an epidemic as of late. It's all been made too easy & acceptable. Used to be a man had to go to the store and buy a magazine and hide it.
As our culture just keeps sinking lower.. satan is a prowler destroying all that God sees as good.
We went wayyy off topic lol

I believe there is a difference between making a person to person oath than it is to make an oath to God himself.
For some reason I feel God would be more forgiving if we confessed we lied or had other intensions like trying to get out of a jamb.
Where people tend to be less forgiving for any reason.

Honestly, I think I just prefer to avoid oaths. What's the point? My yes needs to be good enough.

So you go to court, swear on the Bible to tell the truth and you get caught lying. What happens?
You go to jail for perjury.
Are you swearing to God or to the judge?

Well they have you swear on the bible. The option to affirm is always there though.

If you don't get caught by the court and you think you are free, I believe you will still be judged for lying.

yep.

Some people actually have a conscience and lying, knowingly lying would weigh on their hearts, and they would seek forgiveness before it crushes them.
While others have 0 conscience of doing anything wrong as long as it turns out thier way in the end.

I think the difference is the Holy Spirit who convicts us- guides us etc.

What I would like to know is, Why don't they have a conscience?

Lack of Holy Spirit= No love.

Hugs

Hugs to you too

 

[PS95]

Jesus saying not to sware oaths, but to let your yes be yes and your no be no, I understand to be instructions to avoid compounding sin upon sin.

When you make a promise and do not keep it that becomes sin. Then an oath is like another layer of sin you voluntarily stack atop it to try and reaffirm your conviction to fulfill that promise.

The affirming in court seems like a good compromise. As you acknowledge that you are to tell the truth and you understand failure to do so is perjury. No additional sin is added.

As for marriage, it is entering into an institution that already has expectations associated with it.
Vows make clear those expectations, and who is witness to them.

Articulating who is witness, and what is promised does not seem to be contrary to the Spirit of the commandment against oaths.

Hi forrest- I always appreciate your posts.
The marriage vows- isn't that a vow before God? been so long I don't honestly recall!
When I think of all of the divorces and broken vows- disturbing. Marriage needs to be taken more seriously. our culture doesn't- our churches need to.

 

[Ziggy]

Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mat 19:4
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1Co 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Thinking...
Hugs

 

[Deborah_]

Many years ago I had to go to court- I didn't swear on the bible because of those words above. I affirmed, instead.
I got some dirty looks for it.
Anyway- I have heard people say things like- that doesn't mean you can take an oath- it just means to tell the truth.
I don't see that when I read those. I see, don't swear an oath. Of course, we should be honest, but don't swear an oath.

What do you think?

I used to think the same way, when I was a young Christian 50 years ago. My husband still holds to that. But society has been changing in all that time. Nowadays, most people who make an affirmation (rather than swearing an oath) do so to call attention to the fact that they don't believe in God. Do I want people to think that I'm an atheist?

I'm not sure that Jesus meant us to avoid oaths in the courtroom or on other solemn occasions. He was forbidding their use in everyday conversation - when we should be content with simply telling the truth, every time we open our mouths.

The only time I've ever had to swear an oath was when I was executing my mother's estate, and had to swear (or affirm) that I had filled out the probate form honestly. It was a private affair in a solicitor's office with just the two of us present, and she took a tiny Bible out of her desk drawer for me to swear on. In a way it seemed to be trivialising the procedure; but simply "making an affirmation" would have felt insufficient, like a self-declaration of integrity without there necessarily being any substance to it.

 

[RepentingChristian]

Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mat 19:4
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1Co 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Thinking...
Hugs

You really love hearing yourself talk. Your ego is of EPIC proportions.

 

[Ziggy]

You really love hearing yourself talk. Your ego is of EPIC proportions.

Well I suppose how you hear it.
There is a difference between flesh and spirit no?
Adam was the one who spoke concerning two being one flesh.
Jesus spoke of two being one spirit.

The flesh profiteth nothing.

Jhn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I was thinking about the oath given in marriage under man's law vs. God's law.
Adam is not God.

And of course we know that Jesus was speaking about Christ and the church, which is spiritual.
Our oath in marriage is like an image of the true.

1Co 7:10
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11
But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1Co 7:12
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13
And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:15
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

What if you swear an oath on the bible and you are an unbeliever?

Does it count?

And who are the rest?

Hugs

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus saying not to sware oaths, but to let your yes be yes and your no be no, I understand to be instructions to avoid compounding sin upon sin.

When you make a promise and do not keep it that becomes sin. Then an oath is like another layer of sin you voluntarily stack atop it to try and reaffirm your conviction to fulfill that promise.

The affirming in court seems like a good compromise. As you acknowledge that you are to tell the truth and you understand failure to do so is perjury. No additional sin is added.

As for marriage, it is entering into an institution that already has expectations associated with it.
Vows make clear those expectations, and who is witness to them.

Articulating who is witness, and what is promised does not seem to be contrary to the Spirit of the commandment against oaths.

speaking of marriages . Let us talk about marriages .
Many beleive its okay to attend marriages of known adultery or marriages of same sex .
Just rememember , IF there be any reason why as the two cannot be wed , WELL SPEAK UP
or you just agreed with this covenant that GOD DOES NOT agree with .
We are not to just go with the flow of t his world . Ask yourself
WHAT DID JESUS DO when he saw sin and error . WHY he always corrected it . Even reminded some to GO and sin NO MORE .
SO if any feel compelled to go to such an abomination
THEY better be ready to SPEAK NOW . FOR BELIEVE YOU ME , THERE IS REASON WHY the TWO OUGHT NOT to be married .

 

[lforrest]

speaking of marriages . Let us talk about marriages .
Many beleive its okay to attend marriages of known adultery or marriages of same sex .
Just rememember , IF there be any reason why as the two cannot be wed , WELL SPEAK UP
or you just agreed with this covenant that GOD DOES NOT agree with .
We are not to just go with the flow of t his world . Ask yourself
WHAT DID JESUS DO when he saw sin and error . WHY he always corrected it . Even reminded some to GO and sin NO MORE .
SO if any feel compelled to go to such an abomination
THEY better be ready to SPEAK NOW . FOR BELIEVE YOU ME , THERE IS REASON WHY the TWO OUGHT NOT to be married .

God liking it and God accepting it are two different things.

When husband and wife marry and become one flesh, it is entirely possible for that flesh to be split again and again if there is unfaithfulness. This is a source of a lot of heartache.

But should someone who is divorced remarry against Jesus command, what actually prevents them from doing so? So many people know it is a sin to divorce and remarry but do it anyways, it doesn't make the second marriage illegitimate.

 

[amigo de christo]

God liking it and God accepting it are two different things.

When husband and wife marry and become one flesh, it is entirely possible for that flesh to be split again and again if there is unfaithfulness. This is a source of a lot of heartache.

But should someone who is divorced remarry against Jesus command, what actually prevents them from doing so? So many people know it is a sin to divorce and remarry but do it anyways, it doesn't make the second marriage illegitimate.

it makes the second marriage this .
SO then IF she be married to another man while her first husband liveth
she shall be called an ADULTERESS . same goes for the man who also put away his wife and married another .
We already know the exception . FORNICATION and or death .
That alone . As far as the marriage between man and man or woman and woman
IT dont matter if its the first time or not , ITS abomination and will be always seen by GOD as such .

 

[amigo de christo]

God liking it and God accepting it are two different things.

When husband and wife marry and become one flesh, it is entirely possible for that flesh to be split again and again if there is unfaithfulness. This is a source of a lot of heartache.

But should someone who is divorced remarry against Jesus command, what actually prevents them from doing so? So many people know it is a sin to divorce and remarry but do it anyways, it doesn't make the second marriage illegitimate.

S hould someone who is divorced remarry against JESUS command . OF course not .
What actually prevents one from doing so . GLAD you asked .
Many many years ago i knew a man that had put away his wife .
He did date a little after that . SOON after HE was actually drawn to GOD .
And a new heart given . with new desires . He went into the bible and loved reading it daily .
Soon after he realized he would not be able to ever remarry so long as his first wife lived .
YET The JOY of THE LORD filled him and happy was that man who keeps JESUS sayings .
Anyway twenty plus years later , having lived single that entire time
THE JOY of that man has not diminished . HE does not hang his head wishing he could be remarried .
SO to answer your questoin on what prevents one from DOING SO , from remarrying . WHY GOD DOES OF COURSE .
HIS SPIRIT does guide us and safely lead us .
Now i dont want you feeling sorrow for that man . HE too has warned a few others
over the years about NOT remarrying . Even had to seperate himself from the company
of a man who married a fourth wife . but dont think that man a wicked judg mental monster . NOPE .
That man did what was best for the other man , but the other man HEARD NOT and HEEDED NOT
and walked RIGHT INTO adultery .
OH , I am that man . This was not a good sounding story , I AM that man . HAPPY is the one who KEEPS MY SAYINGS .
SO on that note , LEAP up and PRAISE THE LORD my friend . The LORD is our hope and our salvation .

 

[Wrangler]

I've wondered about this for a long time. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a minister and that seems to violate the prohibition on making oaths.