Questions on oaths

[Ziggy]

I've wondered about this for a long time. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a minister and that seems to violate the prohibition on making oaths.

Isa 49:22
Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

Standard
nace; from H5264; a flag; also a sail; by implication, a flagstaff; generally a signal; figuratively, a token:—banner, pole, sail, (en-) sign, standard.

Jer 50:2
Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.

Num 2:2
Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.

Looks like it's been a tradition to have a flag for a long time.

Learn something new every day.

Hugs

 

[Wrangler]

Looks like it's been a tradition to have a flag for a long time.

Having a flag, making an oath. Not the same thing. Christ didn’t prohibit flag waving.

 

[Ziggy]

Having a flag, making an oath. Not the same thing. Christ didn’t prohibit flag waving.

What is the difference between an oath and a gift?

Mat 5:23
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

2Ch 6:22
If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to make him swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house;
2Ch 6:23
Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.

or:

Mat 23:16
Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18
And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20
Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21
And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22
And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

So if I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America,
Am I pledging my allegiance to the flag or to the Country which it represents?

And to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation Under God.
Indivisible. With Liberty and Justice for All.

A republic, based on the Latin phrase res publica ('public thing' or 'people's thing'), is a state in which political power rests with the public (people), typically through their representatives—in contrast to a monarchy.

fidelity, allegiance, fealty, loyalty, devotion, piety mean faithfulness to something to which one is bound by pledge or duty. fidelity implies strict and continuing faithfulness to an obligation, trust, or duty.

Hugs

 

[Wrangler]

There is a Christian flag. Divided loyalties?

 

[Ziggy]

I never heard of this before, nor do I remember seeing one either,

Some churches and organizations in the USA practice a "pledge of allegiance" or "affirmation of loyalty" to the Christian Flag, which is similar to the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag. The first pledge was written by Lynn Harold Hough, a Methodist minister who had heard Ralph Diffendorfer, secretary to the Methodist Young People's Missionary Movement, promoting the Christian flag at a rally. He wrote the following pledge:

I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Saviour for whose kingdom it stands; one brotherhood, uniting all mankind in service and in love.

In Canada and the United States, accommodationists and separationists have entered impassioned debate on the legality of erecting the Christian Flag atop governmental buildings.

Christian Flag - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So many rabbit holes. so little time.
LOL

Hugs

 

[lforrest]

I've wondered about this for a long time. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a minister and that seems to violate the prohibition on making oaths.

I used to be angered way back when I was in school. They always pressured the kids into making oaths.

I remember the pledge of allegiance. I stopped saying it eventually, because I didn't agree that the nation was under God. Assuming it implied approval by God.

Then there were academic integrity pledges. I was not as conscientious back then. Good thing I never intend to go back to school.

Some other initiative they tried to pressure the class into taking a pledge not to take up smoking ever. I don't smoke, but that really irritated me that it was an affront to my personal Liberty. And I refused to take the oath.

Thinking back, it was out of line to try and get kids to sware oaths and make pledges. One shouldn't demand things from children when you wouldn't do that for adults.

 

[Ziggy]

There is a Christian flag. Divided loyalties?

I don't think so. Just different dimensions.

I don't agree with dual citizenship though.
Like, you can't be a Christian and Islamic or Buddhist, at the same time.
Just like you can't be duty bound to two different Countries.

Divisions are everywhere.

Carnal vs. Carnal, Spiritual vs Spiritual.
But I think as long as we are in this world there will always be a division between God and Mammon.

Hugs

 

[amigo de christo]

Having a flag, making an oath. Not the same thing. Christ didn’t prohibit flag waving.

Rainbow lgbtq flag . yeah i would not wave that one my friend . its god is NOT THE GOD who created all .

 

[Ziggy]

Some other initiative they tried to pressure the class into taking a pledge not to take up smoking ever.

I'm glad I'm not guilty of taking that pledge.

 

[amigo de christo]

I used to be angered way back when I was in school. They always pressured the kids into making oaths.

I remember the pledge of allegiance. I stopped saying it eventually, because I didn't agree that the nation was under God. Assuming it implied approval by God.

Then there were academic integrity pledges. I was not as conscientious back then. Good thing I never intend to go back to school.

Some other initiative they tried to pressure the class into taking a pledge not to take up smoking ever. I don't smoke, but that really irritated me that it was an affront to my personal Liberty. And I refused to take the oath.

Thinking back, it was out of line to try and get kids to sware oaths and make pledges. One shouldn't demand things from children when you wouldn't do that for adults.

many already do and soon ALL not in the lambs b ook of life will swear allegiance to the god of inclusivity .
And it will become law . And be enforced upon all through a powerful AI led digital no buy no sell system .
The one world religoin is not coming
ITS HERE . ITS ONLY GROWING Now both in power , in number and in influence into only greater darkness and rebellion to GOD
and HIS CHRIST .
The one world religoin cometh not with pitchforks and a tail . IT came presented as Love and as loving
as inclusive and as tolerant and it has led them into only greater hatred against the GOD and HIS CHRIST and HIS WORDS
and his saints . And WHO ya think determines what is mis and dis information
what is hate , what is divisive . THEY DO . this world gonna reap and pay a deep and dear price
for its rebellion to the ONLY GOD and HIS CHRIST who could have saved them .

 

[PS95]

I used to think the same way, when I was a young Christian 50 years ago. My husband still holds to that. But society has been changing in all that time. Nowadays, most people who make an affirmation (rather than swearing an oath) do so to call attention to the fact that they don't believe in God. Do I want people to think that I'm an atheist?

I'm not sure that Jesus meant us to avoid oaths in the courtroom or on other solemn occasions. He was forbidding their use in everyday conversation - when we should be content with simply telling the truth, every time we open our mouths.

The only time I've ever had to swear an oath was when I was executing my mother's estate, and had to swear (or affirm) that I had filled out the probate form honestly. It was a private affair in a solicitor's office with just the two of us present, and she took a tiny Bible out of her desk drawer for me to swear on. In a way it seemed to be trivialising the procedure; but simply "making an affirmation" would have felt insufficient, like a self-declaration of integrity without there necessarily being any substance to it.

It seems there are several opinions on this.
Personally, if someone thought I was an atheist over this type of thing- it would not bother me- If possible, I would recite the verse and remove doubt.
In a court setting an explanation opportunity in front of the jury isn't allowed- so it is taking that chance for certain.
BUT- having said that, I don't know how I could swear on a bible given what Jesus said. I could only hope that by my disposition during testimony they would see my integrity.
It's hard for me to dissect Jesus' words there to mean-- it's ok "if"... but not ok "if.."
In the OT it was ok if you told the truth-- Jesus seems to be changing it. That's how I see it.

Oaths generally refer to something you will/won't do. We are unable to control what will happen in the future, and therefore don't know if we will be able to keep that oath.
("you cannot make even one hair white or black"). ?
Maybe it's akin to James saying that we should not say "tomorrow we will do this or that" instead of If the Lord wills we will..
I'm not sure about the connections I'm making here.. that's why I asked the question.
I am unable to see what Jesus is saying- other than- "don't do it.- it comes from evil"
Then, for some reason James prefaced his statement with "Above all".- which seems odd.

I understand your thinking about your mom's estate... a solemn time and not a time to want to make any waves.
In seeing what I do now- for me- that would probably be the time to quote the verse and then affirm.
If you don't feel convicted over it- then I certainly would not be concerned!

 

[PS95]

I've wondered about this for a long time. The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a minister and that seems to violate the prohibition on making oaths.

I've always been baffled by the Jw teachings I grew up with about oaths. For them it's forbidden to salute the flag, but it's fine to swear on the bible in court.
Then we see the JW leaders & Jw attorneys lying under oath.. -Oh my head.

Seems people are all over the place with this.
I will say- I never really saw the pledge of allegiance as an oath but I suppose could be.
I saw it as more of a loyalty admission (to honor) to be a law abiding citizen and uphold rights of liberty and justice under God. I saw it as more as giving honor.--I don't see where we are swearing on a flag..

The other examples like in court literally swearing on a bible not to lie is more clear to me.
The flag is of course merely a symbol and to the United States and it's "republic"? why do Dems say the pledge? lol
I suppose people can affirm it if reciting it.

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

to.. "I affirm giving honor to the flag of the United States and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
R0 13
1Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

 

[Marvelloustime]

many already do and soon ALL not in the lambs b ook of life will swear allegiance to the god of inclusivity .
And it will become law . And be enforced upon all through a powerful AI led digital no buy no sell system .
The one world religoin is not coming
ITS HERE . ITS ONLY GROWING Now both in power , in number and in influence into only greater darkness and rebellion to GOD
and HIS CHRIST .
The one world religoin cometh not with pitchforks and a tail . IT came presented as Love and as loving
as inclusive and as tolerant and it has led them into only greater hatred against the GOD and HIS CHRIST and HIS WORDS
and his saints . And WHO ya think determines what is mis and dis information
what is hate , what is divisive . THEY DO . this world gonna reap and pay a deep and dear price
for its rebellion to the ONLY GOD and HIS CHRIST who could have saved them .

@amigo de christo