Rachel weeping for her children

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Mungo

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Matthew 2:18
“A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more.”
What is all that about?

Well I've been reading a book that explains it.
Firstly Rachel; before I read this I knew very little about Rachel. She doesn't seem very important.

Briefly - Jacob, on the instructions of his father, Isaac, goes to his ancestral homeland to seek a wife. He meets Rachel at a well and falls in love with her (Gen 29) and offers Laban, Rachel's father, to work for 7 years as payment for Rachel to be his wife. At the end of 7 years Laban tricks Isaac into marrying Leah, Rachels' elder sister. He then marries Rachel as well but has to serve Laban another 7 years. During this time Leah conceived 4 sons but Rachel was barren. So Rachel gave Jacob her maid Bilhah as his wife to have children for her, by whom he had 2 sons. Leah was jealous, and by now barren herself, so she gave her maid Zilpah to Jacob and they had two more sons. But then Leah conceived two more sons. Finally God opened Rachel's womb and she bore a son (Joseph of the many coloured coat) for Jacob.

Then Jacob returned home with his wives and the 11 sons.
Later Rachel produced one more son (Benjamin) for Jacob.
Rachel had a painful labour (Gen 35:17) and died giving birth to Benjamin at Ephrath (Gen 35:18-19) which is identified as Bethlehem . Then she was not buried in the family plot at Machpelah, along with Sarah and Rebekah, but near Bethlehem, and Jacob set up a pillar upon her grave; it is the pillar of Rachel’s tomb, which is there to this day (Gen 35:20).

According to the writer when we look outside the Bible to Jewish writings there are three things that stand out:
1. Rachel was a woman of intense suffering.
2. The location of her tomb is Bethlehem.
3. Ancient rabbinic commentaries say that Rachel is not just a matriarch of her people but a most powerful intercessor on behalf of Israel. For example he says that in one tradition, both Abraham and Moses come to God weeping and pleading for Israel after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, but God does not answer their prayers (Lamentations Rabbah 24). It is only when the "matriarch Rachel" intercedes with God on behalf of the sinful people that he responds:
…."for you sake, Rachel I will restore Israel to their place."
Thus says the Lord: “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not.” (Jer 31:15)

Followed by:
Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future, says the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country.(Jer 31:16-17).
So as a reward for her intercession God promises to restore Israel

So in ancient Judaism the author writes, As the wife of Jacob/Israel himself, Rachel was regarded in a special way as the sorrowful mother of all Israel, whose special role was to pray for and intercede on behalf of her children, even, though she was no longer on earth.
He also notes: In the twentieth century, we even have records of Jews visiting Rachel's tomb to light candles and ask for her prayers.


Hence when Herod slaughters the male children in Bethlehem and the region around it - in the vicinity of Rachel's tomb near Bethlehem - Matthew recalls Jeremiah:
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:

“A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children;
she refused to be consoled, because they were no more.”
(Mt 2:17,18)
Although Rachel has died she is somehow aware of the suffering of her children and laments for them as the matriarch of Israel - "weeping for her children", in the OT for their exile, and now for their killing.

Finally another point about Rachel (though there are more), as noted earlier, Rachel had a painful labour when giving birth to her second son Benjamin and died.
At the cross Mary suffered watching her son die. As Simeon said to Mary a sword will pierce through your own soul also (Lk 2:35). It is at this time of intense suffering that Mary receives her second son, the beloved disciple:
When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27).
As Rachel received her second son in pain and suffering so Mary receives her second son at a time of pain and suffering. John is like a second Benjamin and that perhaps explains why John calls himself "the beloved" disciple because Benjamin was called "the beloved of the Lord" (Dt 33:12).

There is more but I think that is enough for now.
 
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Mungo

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In the Bible there are types and anti-types of people or events.
Types are in the OT and point towards an anti-type in the NT
There is an Old and a New.
There are many types of Jesus in the OT. For example Isaac is a type of Jesus being taken for sacrifice (Gen 22:1-19).

It is in typology that we find another link between Rachel and Mary.
Rachel's son Joseph is a type of Jesus. There are many similarities between Joseph and Jesus

Joseph is the first born and beloved son of Jacob
Jesus is the first born son of Mary and beloved Son of God

Joseph is sold to the Gentiles for 20 silver pieces by Judah on of the twelve brothers.
Jesus is sold to the Jews for 30 silver pieces by Judas one of the twelve disciples.

Joseph is with two condemned men, one of whom is pardoned and given physical life.
Jesus is with two condemned men, one of whom is forgiven and given everlasting life.

Joseph is 30 years old when he enters Pharaoh's service.
Jesus was 30 years old when he begins his ministry.

Joseph is exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh and rules over the kingdom of Egypt
Jesus is exalted to the right hand of God and rules over the kingdom of heaven.

Joseph saves Israel and the Gentiles from death and feeds them life-giving wheat.
Jesus saves Israel and the Gentiles from spiritual death and feed them with life-giving bread.

Joseph gives special honour to Benjamin, youngest of the twelve at a banquet.
Jesus gives special honour to the Beloved Disciple at the Last Supper.

Joseph is revealed to his brothers, who do not recognise him at first, after he is exalted to the throne of Egypt.
Jesus is revealed to his disciples, who do not recognise him at first, after he is raised from the dead.

So just as Rachel is the mother of Joseph, the type of Jesus, so Mary is the mother of Jesus, the anti-type.
 

marks

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So in ancient Judaism the author writes, As the wife of Jacob/Israel himself, Rachel was regarded in a special way as the sorrowful mother of all Israel, whose special role was to pray for and intercede on behalf of her children, even, though she was no longer on earth.
He also notes: In the twentieth century, we even have records of Jews visiting Rachel's tomb to light candles and ask for her prayers.
This is very interesting!

But this is in rabbinical tradition, and not in the Bible. That Rachel has this special "afterlife role in the ways of men".

And don't quite a number of people around the world light candles, and make shrines, and give offerings for/to their dearly departed? Of various faiths? According to their traditions?

Much love!
 

Mungo

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This is very interesting!

But this is in rabbinical tradition, and not in the Bible. That Rachel has this special "afterlife role in the ways of men".

And don't quite a number of people around the world light candles, and make shrines, and give offerings for/to their dearly departed? Of various faiths? According to their traditions?

Much love!

Some of it is ancient Jewish tradition. Most of it is from the Bible.
 

marks

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Some of it is ancient Jewish tradition. Most of it is from the Bible.
The part I mentioned . . . it's not in the Bible. This stuff about Rachel having some active role in the affairs of man in her afterlife, that's not in the Bible. I didn't know it was a Jewish tradition, or ancient rabbinical teaching, and that's interesting.

But that someone prays to a dead person at their grave, or a shrine constructed for that purpose, lots of cultures and religions do that. I don't see it in the Bible, Old or New Testaments, and I don't see it having any place in the Christian life.

Much love!
 

Mungo

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The part I mentioned . . . it's not in the Bible. This stuff about Rachel having some active role in the affairs of man in her afterlife, that's not in the Bible. I didn't know it was a Jewish tradition, or ancient rabbinical teaching, and that's interesting.

But that someone prays to a dead person at their grave, or a shrine constructed for that purpose, lots of cultures and religions do that. I don't see it in the Bible, Old or New Testaments, and I don't see it having any place in the Christian life.

Much love!
Did you miss this bit
Thus says the Lord: “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not.” (Jer 31:15)
Jeremiah lived some 1300 years after Rachel died. Jeremiah records Rachel as weeping for her children (Israel) as they are exiled after the fall of Jerusalem (approx 586BC). As a reward for her intercession God promises to restore Israel.
Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future, says the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country.(Jer 31:16-17).

And that something is not in the Bible does not mean it is not true.

That different cultures do something does not mean that it has no value in Christianity.
 

marks

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Did you miss this bit
Thus says the Lord: “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not.” (Jer 31:15)
Jeremiah lived some 1300 years after Rachel died. Jeremiah records Rachel as weeping for her children (Israel) as they are exiled after the fall of Jerusalem (approx 586BC). As a reward for her intercession God promises to restore Israel.
Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future, says the Lord, and your children shall come back to their own country.(Jer 31:16-17).

And that something is not in the Bible does not mean it is not true.

That different cultures do something does not mean that it has no value in Christianity.
No I didn't miss that bit. And people seem to have built an awful lot on that bit of wording there. There are various ways to understand that. And I wonder . . . how many were there that actually lit candles and prayed at her grave? And again . . . people do that round the world.

And how do we know whether Rachel, in the afterlife, were to be seeing the slaughter of the children, and that she wept? And that this is the extent of her involvement?

Perhaps Rachel herself would eschew those candles and prayers. Why wouldn't she?

Praying to the dead is nothing special to Christianity, and that people may have done this, doesn't mean it's a good thing to do.

Much love!
 
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TLHKAJ

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Some of it is ancient Jewish tradition. Most of it is from the Bible.
The traditions don't line up scripturally. It sounds more like catholicism.
 

Mungo

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And how do we know whether Rachel, in the afterlife, were to be seeing the slaughter of the children, and that she wept? And that this is the extent of her involvement?
Because Scriptures says she did.