Renouncing My Faith

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Nancy

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No, this isn't the verse, but I think it brings understanding to that verse.

This isn't the branch that is not in Jesus, this is a branch that is in Jesus, but does not bear fruit. The Father, the husbandman, "carries" that branch away, "airei", to take up and carry away.

There are branches that are in Jesus, and those that are not.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

There are three. The branch in Christ that does not bear fruit, the Father carries away. The branch in Christ that does bear fruit, the Father purges so it will bear more fruit. And the branch not in Christ is gathered to be burned.

What is the branch that is in Christ, but does not bear fruit? What does it mean that the Father carries this one away, but the branch not in Christ is burned? What is the difference between these?

I understand this to mean that the branch that is actually in Christ, born again, but unfruitful, they may find themselves carried off by the Father, in an untimely death. The born again person who is fruitful the Father will work with to become more fruitful. And those who are not in Christ, not born again, these are gathered and burned.

With this in mind, saving someone from death could be speaking of physical death, not spiritual death, as that person has become fruitful again, showing this to be the purging work.

Much love!

"What is the branch that is in Christ, but does not bear fruit? What does it mean that the Father carries this one away, but the branch not in Christ is burned? What is the difference between these?"


I would say that the branch that is in Christ but does not bear fruit could relate to the meaning of "ariei" (to take up).
If we take this in a literal sense...what would the caretaker of a vineyard do when a branch is weak and not bearing fruit? He would lift it from the ground and attach it back to the vine to get life? Don't they do that IRL?
 

marks

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But that's not what it says. You can't abide if you aren't already in him. You can't be cast out if you were never saved. It clearly states the branch can choose to remain or not.
Let's look at the verse:

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

upload_2020-2-20_8-45-47.png

Where is the choice here, to not remain, to not be in Christ in an ongoing way?

Those who remain in Christ, and those who do not, and of those in Christ, there are those who do, and those who do not bear fruit.

Those in Christ who bear fruit, God purges them to become more fruitful. Those in Christ who do not bear fruit, God carries them away. And those who are not in Christ, cast out, gathered, and burned.

But I wanted to post this to show more my understanding of the passage you were sharing,

Renniks said:
James 5: 19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

My question would be, if we are looking to this passage to show the spiritual death of the child of God, how would we know for certain that this is the death spoken of, rather than physical death?

Much love!
 

marks

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"What is the branch that is in Christ, but does not bear fruit? What does it mean that the Father carries this one away, but the branch not in Christ is burned? What is the difference between these?"


I would say that the branch that is in Christ but does not bear fruit could relate to the meaning of "ariei" (to take up).
If we take this in a literal sense...what would the caretaker of a vineyard do when a branch is weak and not bearing fruit? He would lift it from the ground and attach it back to the vine to get life? Don't they do that IRL?
I think the meaning of the word is more to lift up and away, to carry off.

It's also used here:

John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

Jesus carried away the sins of the world. The Father carries away the branch in Christ that does not bear fruit. Is how I understand it.

Much love!
 

Renniks

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Let's look at the verse:

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

9252_7f738480e0a08a186ab2a07b4f70aa4e.png


Where is the choice here, to not remain, to not be in Christ in an ongoing way?
Right there in the verse. "If a man abide not in me, assumes a man can indeed abide in him.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

I don't see how it could be more clear. He's talking to the same person the whole time, its not three different branches. To make it say something else, you have to twist and wiggle and jive. Which might make you a great dancer, but not so much an honest reader of scripture.
 

marks

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Right there in the verse. "If a man abide not in me, assumes a man can indeed abide in him.
But it doesn't assume that he was abiding in Christ, and now is not. Only that he does not abide in Christ.

I have a different point of view than do you . No need to "twist and wiggle and jive".

I don't dance, never was good at it.

As to my honesty, I'm not going to defend myself against your comments.
 

Renniks

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My question would be, if we are looking to this passage to show the spiritual death of the child of God, how would we know for certain that this is the death spoken of, rather than physical death?
Because that's the obvious interpretation. turning somebody back to God isn't going to stop them from physically dying. We all do that.
But it doesn't assume that he was abiding in Christ, and now is not. Only that he does not abide in Christ.

I have a different point of view than do you . No need to "twist and wiggle and jive".

I don't dance, never was good at it.

As to my honesty, I'm not going to defend myself against your comments.
I used to be a pretty good dancer. Maybe I still am if I don't throw my back out.. lol. No worries, I just can't read it anyway but the way it sounds.
If a decade of being taught OSAS in church didn't convince me, an internet post probably isn't going to either.
 

marks

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Because that's the obvious interpretation. turning somebody back to God isn't going to stop them from physically dying. We all do that.

What I'm suggesting is that if indeed God may take someone home early because they are no longer producing fruit, if we can help to turn them around and become fruitful that doesn't have to happen. Turning them back to God saves them from an early death.

Much love!
 

Renniks

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What I'm suggesting is that if indeed God may take someone home early because they are no longer producing fruit, if we can help to turn them around and become fruitful that doesn't have to happen. Turning them back to God saves them from an early death.

Much love!
Maybe in some cases, but he doesn't state it as a mere possibly.
 

marks

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Maybe in some cases, but he doesn't state it as a mere possibly.
So what I'm saying is that this is an alternate view of that passage in James. If you feel this is a reasonable idea, then the question is, given more than one way to understand the passage, is there something to give more illumination?

Much love!
 

Renniks

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So what I'm saying is that this is an alternate view of that passage in James. If you feel this is a reasonable idea, then the question is, given more than one way to understand the passage, is there something to give more illumination?

Much love!
IMO the passage only makes sense if it's speaking of spiritual death. Saying you will save him from death is very different than saying God might lengthen his life.
 

marks

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IMO the passage only makes sense if it's speaking of spiritual death. Saying you will save him from death is very different than saying God might lengthen his life.
I understand. And I appreciate your following this through with me!

Much love!
 
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marks

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@Renniks ,

I've found a number of passages which I believe make unequivical statements that have convinced me that no one who is truly born again will in fact 'die again'.

If you are interested in looking at any, say the word, if not, I understand.

Much love!
 

Renniks

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@Renniks ,

I've found a number of passages which I believe make unequivical statements that have convinced me that no one who is truly born again will in fact 'die again'.

If you are interested in looking at any, say the word, if not, I understand.

Much love!
Sure, pick one and give me your thoughts on it.
 

Prayer Warrior

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I suppose if I wanted to edit the OP, I'd put it in quotes, "Renouncing My Faith". The OP was inspired by talk on another thread about someone renouncing their faith, and I began to think, Is that even possible?

Much love!
My heart just about skipped a beat when I read your title. :(
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

While we are saved through faith, salvation is not found in faith itself.

Ephesians 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"

Faith brings us to Jesus. In Jesus Christ we receive every spiritual blessing.

Our salvation is immersing into Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;"

Romans 6:3-7
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

By faith this becomes possible, but rebirth is from God. In Christ we are a new creation, made free from sin.

And by then it's too late to talk about renouncing your faith.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What keeps us is not our faith, we are kept by the power of God. This does not say we are kept by faith in God's power. We are kept by God's power, which works in our faith.

His keeping power is such that it is "unto salvation", not unto the great question. He keeps us by His power through faith unto salvation.

Galatians 2
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Kept by the power of God through faith . . . whose faith?

It's Jesus' faith!

Much love!

How can one can have all faith so they could remove mountains ... but lack one thing without Charity. Which without “I am nothing and it profits me nothing?” 1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

It is charity which is confusing because what Charity is spoken of as all the rest is empty and void(nothing) without it. When again the word contrast “though I give all my goods to feed the poor and my body to be burned” without Charity I am nothing and it profits me nothing. Same with having all faith to remove mountains...James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What are those things needful to the body?
 

marks

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How can one can have all faith so they could remove mountains ... but lack one thing without Charity. Which without “I am nothing and it profits me nothing?” 1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

It is charity which is confusing because what Charity is spoken of as all the rest is empty and void(nothing) without it. When again the word contrast “though I give all my goods to feed the poor and my body to be burned” without Charity I am nothing and it profits me nothing. Same with having all faith to remove mountains...James 2:14-17 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, [16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

What are those things needful to the body?
Food and shelter and rest, faith and hope and love.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. Someone can do all the works they want, but that's all they are doing, the works that they want. You may relieve someone's hunger or thirst, but without love, its not from faith, and is then ultimately sin.

Do the works, not because I love you, and care for you, but because it will make God accept me, make you like me, make them think I'm spiritual, make me feel better about myself, it's all take, not give, without love.

Much love!
 

VictoryinJesus

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I wonder why there are a multitude of warnings about falling away from the faith, then?

the warnings is NOT to that which is sown in the good ground. “Seek first the Kingdom of God”.

2 Corinthians 9:8-10 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: [9] (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. [10] Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, AND multiply your seed sown, AND increase the fruits of your righteousness(Philippians 1:11)

Mark 4:14-20 The sower soweth the word. [15] And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. [16] And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; [17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. [18] And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, [19] And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. [20] And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

fallen by the way side, satan comes and “takes away the word sown in their hearts” is not possible with Matthew 6:19-21 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

There Is “choked” “withered in the heat” and “the stony ground” which has no root but endures for a time; afterward when persecution comes for the sake of the word, that sown on stony ground is immediately offended and falls away, departs from the Word. But then there is the good ground which is sown (where no thief approaches) where His word says ... bears fruit and increases.... “multiplying”.
 

marks

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Sure, pick one and give me your thoughts on it.
One is Colossians 3, the first few verses.

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

In this passage I see that God is giving a "rule of thumb", telling us what is true in a certain case.

If you are risen with Christ, being dead, your life hid with Christ in God. This I see as specifying the person who is born again. Immersed into Jesus' death and burial, risen with Him. In Christ you are a new creation.

If this is you . . .

Your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, you also shall appear with Him in glory.

This is prophecy, and will be fulfilled. If you are born again, you will appear with Him in glory.

And He goes on to say that since this is true, therefore, put to death your members that are upon the earth. Kill the flesh, because you are dead, hid, to appear with Jesus in glory.

If someone who was reborn were not to appear with Jesus in glory, then this passage is wrong. And that will not be.

If you be risen with Christ . . . you will appear with Him in glory . . . therefore mortify your members upon the earth.

Your thoughts?

Much love!