Renouncing My Faith

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Consider Living water for the thirsty, and the Bread of “I Am the Bread” for hunger.

That's what's important!

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

One is Colossians 3, the first few verses.

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

In this passage I see that God is giving a "rule of thumb", telling us what is true in a certain case.

If you are risen with Christ, being dead, your life hid with Christ in God. This I see as specifying the person who is born again. Immersed into Jesus' death and burial, risen with Him. In Christ you are a new creation.

If this is you . . .

Your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, you also shall appear with Him in glory.

This is prophecy, and will be fulfilled. If you are born again, you will appear with Him in glory.

And He goes on to say that since this is true, therefore, put to death your members that are upon the earth. Kill the flesh, because you are dead, hid, to appear with Jesus in glory.

If someone who was reborn were not to appear with Jesus in glory, then this passage is wrong. And that will not be.

If you be risen with Christ . . . you will appear with Him in glory . . . therefore mortify your members upon the earth.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Those are wonderful promises for believers

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, of this world...." Also in Colossians

22) "And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--

(v. 23) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard . . ." Also in Colossians.

Notice that these promises are conditional on remaining in the hope of the Gospel.
They aren't for those who fall into false teaching or unbelief.

 

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Those are wonderful promises for believers

"8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, of this world...." Also in Colossians

22) "And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--

(v. 23) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard . . ." Also in Colossians.

Notice that these promises are conditional on remaining in the hope of the Gospel.
They aren't for those who fall into false teaching or unbelief.

Yes, this is who the passage is speaking of, believers. Do you agree that this passage refers to those who have been born again?

This is what I'm looking at:

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Colossians 3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This is the only condition that appears here. If you are risen with Christ. Are you risen with Christ? If not, you are not born again. If yes, then, according to this passage, without any other conditions given, there is a prophecy, that you will appear with Jesus in glory.

Now, understanding that you believe other passages modify what this says, let me ask you, if this were the only passage you were looking at, is that not what this passage says?

Is it not a simple conditional statement, that boils down to, if you are risen with Christ, you will appear in glory with Christ?

If you feel it says something different than that, what does it say? And if this is what it says, what should that mean to us?

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

Yes, this is who the passage is speaking of, believers. Do you agree that this passage refers to those who have been born again?

This is what I'm looking at:

Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Colossians 3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

This is the only condition that appears here. If you are risen with Christ. Are you risen with Christ? If not, you are not born again. If yes, then, according to this passage, without any other conditions given, there is a prophecy, that you will appear with Jesus in glory.

Now, understanding that you believe other passages modify what this says, let me ask you, if this were the only passage you were looking at, is that not what this passage says?

Is it not a simple conditional statement, that boils down to, if you are risen with Christ, you will appear in glory with Christ?

If you feel it says something different than that, what does it say? And if this is what it says, what should that mean to us?

Much love!

Of course that's what it says, but you can't read passages in isolation. You have to let scripture interpret scripture.
" For ye are dead." Doesn't mean you can't choose to let your faith fail and become dead in sins instead of buried with Christ.
It's addressed to those who believe, and just the fact that he's telling them where to set thier affection indicates they can do otherwise, which other passages tell us can lead to losing thier secure position.

I'm convinced that only determinism can make eternal security make sense, and God isn't making robots, but humans with free will.

 

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Of course that's what it says, but you can't read passages in isolation. You have to let scripture interpret scripture.
" For ye are dead." Doesn't mean you can't choose to let your faith fail and become dead in sins instead of buried with Christ.
It's addressed to those who believe, and just the fact that he's telling them where to set thier affection indicates they can do otherwise, which other passages tell us can lead to losing thier secure position.

I'm convinced that only determinism can make eternal security make sense, and God isn't making robots, but humans with free will.

Doesn't your view render this verse false? That there may be some who are risen with Christ, but who will not appear with Him in glory?

I completely agree, all Scripture will harmonize if correctly understood.

"Choosing to let your faith fail", that's the whole thing I'm examining on this thread, is that even possible? I don't think so.

One of the reasons is this passage, that makes such a clear statement.

If this passage is so clearly stated, and this is what it says, then there will not be any passage that will contradict it. Is there one that does contradict this understanding?

The way I understand this is that we are born again with a new and stable nature, sharing in God's nature, which will prevent us from being lost.

Let me ask you . . . do you have any desire to stop being a child of God?

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

Doesn't your view render this verse false? That there may be some who are risen with Christ, but who will not appear with Him in glory?

It's a promise, not a prophecy. A conditional promise.

 

[Renniks]

If this passage is so clearly stated, and this is what it says, then there will not be any passage that will contradict it. Is there one that does contradict this understanding?

No contradict, but clarify.
And there's a bunch of them.
"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” "
Hebrews 3:12

 

[Renniks]

Let me ask you . . . do you have any desire to stop being a child of God?

No, but I'm human. I have plenty of conflicting desires. Can someone come to a place where they could not fall away? Maybe, but I'm not that holy.

 

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It's a promise, not a prophecy. A conditional promise.

I realize this is how a good many think, but please show me the condition. The only condition I can see in that passage is that we are risen with Him.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

I realize this is how a good many think, but please show me the condition. The only condition I can see in that passage is that we are risen with Him.

Much love!

Paul has already warned them earlier in Colossians 1 that they must continue in the hope of the Gospel. It would be like me giving a speech and saying: " If you choose not to desert, here are all the things I promise to you after the battle."

Nobody is going to think that they're going to get that inheritance if they run away.

 

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No, but I'm human. I have plenty of conflicting desires. Can someone come to a place where they could not fall away? Maybe, but I'm not that holy.

I don't think any of us are that holy, at least, not of ourselves.

Those conflicting desires . . . well, better yet, what of the new creation?

Ephesians 4
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What are your thoughts on this "new man" that we are to put on?

I understand this to be the new creation in 2 Corinthians 5. If any be in Christ he is a new creature, old things are passed away, look! all things are new! From God.

I understand the old man to be the source of the desires towards doubt and sin. I understand the new man to be righteous and holy, with desire towards God.

And that what God has done for us is to separate us from the flesh, the man of the flesh, to become a new creature, who yet lives in flesh body.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul has already warned them earlier in Colossians 1 that they must continue in the hope of the Gospel. It would be like me giving a speech and saying: " If you choose not to desert, here are all the things I promise to you after the battle."

Nobody is going to think that they're going to get that inheritance if they run away.

I understand the logical argument, I just don't find room for it in the text. Maybe if it said something like, If you've been raised with Christ, and not fallen again . . .

We could leave this one alone for the time being and move to other passages if you wish.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

I understand the logical argument, I just don't find room for it in the text. Maybe if it said something like, If you've been raised with Christ, and not fallen again . . .

We could leave this one alone for the time being and move to other passages if you wish.

Much love!

Sure. What ever one you want.