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Sorry, bro', but you need to re-think 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The context of this verse never says WHERE we're going to go, being "with the Lord!" Many ASSUME it means we're going to "go to Heaven," but it never says that. It only says that wherever He goes, we go with Him! IF He were to "bounce back up" to "Heaven," THEN we would go to "Heaven," too. BUT, what if He's on His way SOMEWHERE ELSE?! Is He coming back just to "rapture" His people and then go away? OR, does He have a more pressing, urgent need? I believe from other passages that He is resurrecting an ARMY to take with Him in His fight against the enemies of His Land and of His People!Jun2u said:If you want to play blind to the words set forth in Mt. 24:29 and refuse to recognize the word “immediately” then you are not contending with me but with God. The phrase “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” in Rev. 20:2-6 cannot be literal years because of the language of I Th. 4:17 which reads:
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
I Cor. 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed
Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Between the scripture texts above along with Mt.24:29 there is really no room for a thousand year reign of Christ on earth.
The “thousand years” must be understood as “completeness of whatever is in view” otherwise; we will run into all kinds of problems. In the case of Rev. 20:2-6 it is the "completeness of God's timetable" to what's in view.
To God Be The Glory
I agree with this and had held this position for 30+ years.Retrobyter said:One must SEVER the umbilical cord between the word "saved" and the concept of being "born again." They are NOT THE SAME!!!
"Being justified by God" is the same as "being born again."
"Being saved" is the same as "being rescued" or "being delivered!"
Sure. I never said that all Isra'el would be justified! I merely said that all Isra'el would be rescued! That IS what "saved" means. What they do with the Messiah after they have met Him will determine whether they live on or not. Most, I believe, will treat Him with the respect and honor He deserves. Many will treat Him as His more immediate family, particularly the ones listed in Zechariah 12, will treat Him. They will mourn for Him - for what they as a people have done to Him - and they will accept Him as their King. A few will not. They are the "bneey Bliya`al," the "sons of Belial," who of their own volition will choose against the Messiah ... to their own demise.guysmith said:Shalom Retrobyter,
I agree with this and had held this position for 30+ years.
You stated: Tell me, if you had ... say ... three sons asleep in a house and the house caught fire, which one would you rescue? That's an unfair question, right? Wouldn't you want to rescue ALL of them?! Say now that you're an old man with grandchildren in the house. Wouldn't you still want to rescue ALL of them, too?! The Hebrew mentality that you will find THROUGHOUT the Bible is that they are FAMILY! "MISHPACHAH," in Hebrew!
So, even if God has to resurrect them and bring them back to life first, ALL ISRA'EL WILL BE RESCUED!!!
My response: Earlier, you had made it clear that there is a difference between being "rescued" and being "born again." To me being "born again" means salvation/avoiding the second death/ being in the first resurrection. Your last statement implies that being "rescued" = (equals) salvation/avoiding the second death/being in the first resurrection. Please clarify.
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
It sounds like you're doing it, too. "Saved" does NOT mean "justified by God." It means "rescued" or "delivered." It is a common mistake, but once one is aware of the difference, he should work to avoid that mistake in the future. It's hard, I know. It took me a long time to make the correction, especially when I was constantly going to church and hearing the same mistake over and over by every Christian with whom I talked.Wormwood said:The salvation of ALL Israel in Romans 11 is referring to the MANNER in which all Israelites will be saved. It is not teaching that every Israelite will be saved.
It breaks down like this...
Paul says that God is saving Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Through this jealousy and seeing God's work among Gentiles, Israelites will come to faith. It is IN THIS MANNER that all Israel will be saved (through seeing God's grace at work among Gentiles through faith in Christ). So the point is not that EVERY Israelite will be saved (Paul has made this clear that NOT every Israelite will be saved in chapters 9-10. Rather, all the Israelites who are saved will be saved in the manner of seeing God's work among the Gentiles by faith in Christ.
I think the Greek substantiates this as well. Arnie, I think Poppin has a better grasp on Romans on this issue than you give her credit for.
Those that are going to be "rescued" are called (Joel 2:32). Your trying to convince those that aren't called to be "rescued."Retrobyter said:With a few exceptions, I'm about to give up on y'all as UNTEACHABLE!
God will send a country from the other end of the earth to carry away part of Israel's people at the time the judgment by fire falls and the heavens are darkened over Israe.guysmith said:Shalom Retrobyter,
I contend that Zechariah 14: 1-5 is a description of the only ones "rescued." Just as God provided Noah with divine survival instructions, God has provided end time believers with divine survival instructions to be "rescued." I also contend that all unfulfilled prophetic scripture supports this "rescue."
Those that are going to be "rescued" are called (Joel 2:32). Your trying to convince those that aren't called to be "rescued."
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
You're right in part; however, Zechariah 14 is only PART of the prophecy of Yeshua`s return and His rescue of the people in His Land. Zechariah 14 has to do with the rescue of those in Yerushalayim itself. One should NOT discount Zechariah 12, which is also part of this "oracle" from God through the prophet Z'kharyahu: (I'm going to use the NIV purely for readability.)guysmith said:Shalom Retrobyter,
I contend that Zechariah 14: 1-5 is a description of the only ones "rescued." Just as God provided Noah with divine survival instructions, God has provided end time believers with divine survival instructions to be "rescued." I also contend that all unfulfilled prophetic scripture supports this "rescue."
Those that are going to be "rescued" are called (Joel 2:32). You're trying to convince those that aren't called to be "rescued."
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Shalom Retrobyter,Retrobyter said:Shalom, guysmith.
In other words, God (through His Messiah) is going to rescue the people of Y'hudah FIRST; that is, He is going to rescue the Jews in Isra'el BEFORE He rescues those living in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). There, He puts a shield around them until He can get there.
With all due respect, that's nonsense. You've "refuted" nothing. Only in your mind have you killed the straw man. "Saved" is LINKED to the concept of justification by God because many in Isra'el are indeed justified by God at the time of the Rescue when Yeshua` returns; however, the terms are NOT synonymous! 1 Peter 3:21 is a good example. If you think baptism has ANYTHING to do with God's justification of an individual, you have a LOT to learn about GOD'S justification of an individual!Wormwood said:Retrobyter,
Yes, you already made this argument and I refuted it. There are dozens, if not hundreds of Scriptures that use the term "saved" in reference to justification. I would point you to the book of Acts and the preaching of the Apostles. Salvation is almost always and ONLY used of justification which "saves" one from a wicked and corrupt generation. 1 Peter 3 declares that "baptism now saves you. Not the washing of dirt from the flesh but the plea to God for a clean conscience." I don't think you made a correction. I think you made an error and the folks conversing with you at church were right all along.
Actually, that's not quite right. Do you really think that God has to put up a shield for 3.5 years while He's rescuing Y'hudah?! NO! While it WILL take some time to do the rescuing, it won't take NEARLY that long! The shield doesn't go up until He has arrived and is actually in the PROCESS of rescuing His people. Before that time, Z'kharyahu tells us that the people of Yerushalayim are taken captive, the women are raped, and the houses are plundered! Why do you think He's in such a hurry to rescue them?!guysmith said:Shalom Retrobyter,
This shield will go up the first day of the GT and last for the 1260 days of the GT. Just as God protected Israel in the wilderness with a "cloud and fire", He is going to also protect Jerusalem (Isaiah 4).
I can't discount your position on Judah. The problem is that 2/3 of the inhabitants of Israel are going to be killed by the armies of the A/C as it closes in on Jerusalem. Is it possible that there may be pockets of survivors in Judah? Maybe, however, there are no specific locations identified in the Bible like Jerusalem.
1. The two witnesses will prophesy from Jerusalem for the 1260 days of the GT (Revelation 11)
2. The 144,000 will be found "standing" on Mount Zion with Christ (Revelation 14)
3. Christ will fight for Jerusalem at His advent (Zechariah 14:1-5)
4. The Daughters of Zion will be protected on Mount Zion (Isaiah 4)
5. The "Remnant" will be "rescued" on Mount Zion (Joel 2:32)
…..just to name a few.
This is a "Noah Event" where God has deemed that certain end time believers are going to survive the coming "flood" of destruction and persecution. Mount Zion is the future "ark" and those "believers" that make it to this "sanctuary" will be "rescued".
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Yes, it appears I misspoke suggesting that "your disagreement with me revolves around your struggle in being reoriented with the truth I've presented." There probably ISN'T a struggle in you regarding what you think my "truth" is, from your perspective, and I can see where that has been offensive to you and appears to you as arrogant and presumptuous on my part. Most aren't even AWARE that there is a "problem," as I have come to perceive it. Consequently, as I suggest that there is a problem of such magnitude, the simple answer is that I'm wrong. (I don't think so.)Wormwood said:Retro,
I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that you are restructuring the parameters of this discussion to make your argument. I never said the word "saved" and justification are synonymous. I said the Bible often uses passages that speak of salvation in reference to justification. You said, "saved does not mean justified by God." I have shown you multiple passages that clearly indicate that the term saved OFTEN does mean this very thing. Take, for instance, Romans 5:1-11.
It is very obvious from this passage that Paul is clearly linking salvation and justification here. He begins by saying, "Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." In verse 9 he goes on to say, "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." So, contextually, Paul is clearly linking justification through Christ as bringing salvation from God's wrath.
John 3:17 is another example. God so loved "the world" that he sent his son so that the world would not be condemned but would be saved through faith in the Son.
These verses clearly apply to all people and are not directed specifically to Israel (Romans was directed to the church in Rome that clearly had a large Gentile population). Justification in Christ and salvation from the wages of sin are two sides of the same coin. Certainly "saved" can refer to something other than justification and salvation from God's wrath. I never claimed otherwise. However, to suggest that salvation is not used in reference to justification is a tremendous error.
I would encourage you to read the verses that specifically relate to NT teaching on baptism. The Bible references baptism as being "washed, clothed with Christ, buried with Christ, raised with Christ and immersed into the body of Christ." And as I pointed out before, 1 Peter 3 says, "Baptism now saves you" and qualifies this statement that it is faith in Christ displayed in the act and not the water alone that brings salvation. In fact, Peter here links baptism and the Great Deluge as both saving the righteous from a world of evil. In my opinion, you are not dealing directly with the text. If the Bible says "baptism now saves you" and you claim baptism has nothing to do with salvation...my allegiance belongs to the Scripture unless you can show me how I am misinterpreting this seemingly straight-forward passage.
Finally, I would encourage you not to make statements that suggest that my disagreement with you revolves around my struggle in being reoriented with the truth you have presented. This comes across as arrogant and presumptuous. My disagreement is not because I am struggling with coming to the truth from a common error, but because I believe you are in error on this issue.
Thank you for the retraction and clarification. I appreciate your humility in the matter. I understand your point, so I am aware of what you feel the problem is. However, I disagree with your view (as you do with mine).Yes, it appears I misspoke suggesting that "your disagreement with me revolves around your struggle in being reoriented with the truth I've presented." There probably ISN'T a struggle in you regarding what you think my "truth" is, from your perspective, and I can see where that has been offensive to you and appears to you as arrogant and presumptuous on my part. Most aren't even AWARE that there is a "problem," as I have come to perceive it. Consequently, as I suggest that there is a problem of such magnitude, the simple answer is that I'm wrong. (I don't think so.)