Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[Lizbeth]

I agree with imputed righteousness when God does it. What I disagree with is imputing righteousness to yourself. The system does it and you do it...it is hypocrisy.

He does it alright, when we come to faith apart from works. It is a free gift. As the scriptures do say. Jesus is holy and He is our covering......that we His children might be called holy. But it doesn't end there, that is the just the beginning, we have a race to run, a price to pay, the proving of our faith, a journey on the narrow path. There are pitfalls to avoid or be rescued out of, battles to fight, things to overcome (IF we will, it isn't guaranteed in the explicit sense)....etc. The ultimate danger that I see in scripture is that we might fall away.........and that is why we need to go on to perfection (Heb 6), keep running the race so as to win it. Where there is life, there is growth, a taking of ground going on. I'm thankful the Lord is patient.

And I don't believe He is judging the same way man judges a literal race......if someone should die before reaching the goal, God will judge according to whether they were in the race and how they were running it with the time that they had, not based on whether they attained to the full stature of Christ, and if any dont make it....too bad so sad. Too bad so sad, even if they had obeyed the Lord and given everything they knew to give thus far? And there are so many variables...if you've been forgiven much you love much and vice versa; single and unencumbered, or married with families and cumbered with cares of life; some just seem to inherit more or less difficult battles to fight, etc. I don't think the Lord judges His people in a cut and dried way, it is more like a bell curve perhaps. He is merciful and just. Many believers die before crossing the finish line per se who had been running well up to then, but just ran out of time. Many even die through persecution....is it outer darkness for them if they hadn't reached the full stature of Christ? It would be very hard to convince me of that.

I highlight many warnings from the bible that you say are for others not yourself. That is typical of indoctrination.

Where have I said or implied that Epi? I take the warnings of scripture very seriously for myself and others. And have often brought them to bear in many discussions. I am not a believer in OSAS.

 

[Lizbeth]

It doesn't resolve it as you wish it would, or as I was wishing it would earlier when I was very mistaken. We both wished to work in a "but father don't you have a blessing for me (or them) too" of the flesh, a mercy and pity for what He can have no mercy or pity on in order to free us and load us down with His riches.

I've marveled this morning that the Esau God hates was, strangely, given to us BY God. What has to die was given. He clothed us with what He wants us to sacrifice. God is the one who clothed us with what He hates. No matter how long I have sat here this morning trying to get at that, I sit stupefied about it.

If this man tried to do what you (and I) wanted him to do, I'm not sure God would ever forgive him.

I'm thinking in terms that the Lord clothed man with what man chose to be clothed with essentially....the consequences of hearkening to the serpent. God foreknew it would happen though, and has woven it all into His ultimate purposes which are higher than ours.

I wonder if the two sides might be resolved by understanding that though the children be holy, once they become adults they will be held responsible for themselves. We have to have received from the Lord first......because growth springs from what we have already received, not from a vacuum. What we received in the beginning is like a seed. The parable of the talents. The fountains of the deep springing up at the same time the heavens are raining down (so to speak).

No mercy and pity for our old man ultimately, no. But I don't believe the Lord judges in a cut and dried way....see my post to Episkopos, if I expressed it properly.

 

[Episkopos]

He does it alright, when we come to faith apart from works. It is a free gift. As the scriptures do say. Jesus is holy and He is our covering......that we His children might be called holy.

1. The righteous don't know they are righteous. The humble don't know they are humble.
Abraham did not think of himself as righteous...far from it.

The publican went home justified...but not thinking he was justified. You have to learn a lot more about what righteousness entails.

The only ones who count themselves as being righteous are the Pharisees. And this based on the way they read the bible...putting into effect every law as they are able to do. Of course not realizing that they are not doing as well as they think. EXACTLY like the Pharisees of today who claim to be righteous because of their reading of the bible. No difference. And likewise the modern Pharisees condemn all who are not "under grace" or have believed as they have. Same hypocrisy....same superior attitude.

My next podcast is about Phariseeism in the modern church.

How do we know we are covered by Christ's holiness? When we walk in His resurrection life in the kingdom realm. A saint KNOWS He is walking in a higher righteousness because of the power of his walk. It's no longer him doing the effort...it is power (grace) from above. That is what it means to be under grace.

I have explained this so many times....

Where have I said or implied that Epi? I take the warnings of scripture very seriously for myself and others. And have often brought them to bear in many discussions. I am not a believer in OSAS.

But you are a believer that you are rich and already holy...just like the Laodiceans....but you say the rebuke of Christ is not for you...when it is particularly directed your way.

 

[Lizbeth]

Example... If you don't believe in Jesus you are condemned...is for Israel not the world (Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus as a leader of Israel) John 3

I'm afraid I can't keep up with every comment or point. But regarding this I would like to say........this is for Israel FIRST, then the Gentiles. The same truth, the same gospel, is to the Jew FIRST, then the Gentile. As well as tribulation was to the Jew first, then the Gentile/world (Rom 2:9). Speaking of 70AD, and now soon the world/Gentile will likewise be judged.

 

[Episkopos]

I wonder how many can detect the "nuance" between what is taught in present day church circles and what the bible actually says...

Ex. If while we seek to be justified by Christ we are found to be sinners...is Christ therefore a minister of forgiveness? And the whole congregation shouted AMEN!!!!

Whereas in the bible we read...“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." Gal 2:17-18

Jesus did NOT come to forgive sins but that through Him we might be overcomers as He is. The cross is about holiness not forgiveness.

 

[MostlyConfused]

He does it alright, when we come to faith apart from works. It is a free gift. As the scriptures do say. Jesus is holy and He is our covering......that we His children might be called holy. But it doesn't end there, that is the just the beginning, we have a race to run, a price to pay, the proving of our faith, a journey on the narrow path. There are pitfalls to avoid or be rescued out of, battles to fight, things to overcome (IF we will, it isn't guaranteed in the explicit sense)....etc. The ultimate danger that I see in scripture is that we might fall away.........and that is why we need to go on to perfection (Heb 6), keep running the race so as to win it. Where there is life, there is growth, a taking of ground going on. I'm thankful the Lord is patient.

And I don't believe He is judging the same way man judges a literal race......if someone should die before reaching the goal, God will judge according to whether they were in the race and how they were running it with the time that they had, not based on whether they attained to the full stature of Christ, and if any dont make it....too bad so sad. Too bad so sad, even if they had obeyed the Lord and given everything they knew to give thus far? And there are so many variables...if you've been forgiven much you love much and vice versa; single and unencumbered, or married with families and cumbered with cares of life; some just seem to inherit more or less difficult battles to fight, etc. I don't think the Lord judges His people in a cut and dried way, it is more like a bell curve perhaps. He is merciful and just. Many believers die before crossing the finish line per se who had been running well up to then, but just ran out of time. Many even die through persecution....is it outer darkness for them if they hadn't reached the full stature of Christ? It would be very hard to convince me of that.


Where have I said or implied that Epi? I take the warnings of scripture very seriously for myself and others. And have often brought them to bear in many discussions. I am not a believer in OSAS.

This man doesn’t say if you fail to win the prize/enter in that you go to outer darkness. Even from his very first video on YouTube he does not say that. In that first video he specifically SAYS that’s not what he is saying.

Im not sure why you hear him say what he doesn’t say and don’t hear what he DOES say but it appears to me as fear that causes it, fear that he is trying to take something from you, and by your constant arguing, the only thing I think I can see that it is that you think he is trying to take from you is your belief that God sees you as holy. So it makes me think you must believe unless God sees you as holy you will go to outer darkness. But I think what this man says is that the people who think and say they are holy when they aren’t are the ones who go there and the people who try not to harm others or control others and don’t claim to be more than they are inherit the earth.
And further, also in his very first video, (and cant say I fully understand it) he says something about “corporate” holiness, (of which I instantly recalled some verses I think apply), and personal holiness. But I don’t think personal holiness is what we think it is, like a possession or a thing we own but rather as a result of BEING possessed BY. Does that sound crazy? Satan possessed Judas so it would be the opposite of that - not satan possessing you but God possessing you.

 

[Lizbeth]

This man doesn’t say if you fail to win the prize/enter in that you go to outer darkness. Even from his very first video on YouTube he does not say that. In that first video he specifically SAYS that’s not what he is saying.

Im not sure why you hear him say what he doesn’t say and don’t hear what he DOES say but it appears to me as fear that causes it, fear that he is trying to take something from you, and by your constant arguing, the only thing I think I can see that it is that you think he is trying to take from you is your belief that God sees you as holy. So it makes me think you must believe unless God sees you as holy you will go to outer darkness. But I think what this man says is that the people who think and say they are holy when they aren’t are the ones who go there and the people who try not to harm others or control others and don’t claim to be more than they are inherit the earth.
And further, also in his very first video, (and cant say I fully understand it) he says something about “corporate” holiness, (of which I instantly recalled some verses I think apply), and personal holiness. But I don’t think personal holiness is what we think it is, like a possession or a thing we own but rather as a result of BEING possessed BY. Does that sound crazy? Satan possessed Judas so it would be the opposite of that - not satan possessing you but God possessing you.

There might be areas of misunderstanding on both sides here, I'm not sure. It sure seems Epi is misunderstanding me quite a bit. We're just doing our best, I'm sure, to hash this out.

I think it is a kind of possession, but one where we are willing. When God does the work and we just go along for the ride, so to speak.

 

[Lizbeth]

I wonder how many can detect the "nuance" between what is taught in present day church circles and what the bible actually says...

Ex. If while we seek to be justified by Christ we are found to be sinners...is Christ therefore a minister of forgiveness? And the whole congregation shouted AMEN!!!!

Whereas in the bible we read...“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." Gal 2:17-18

Jesus did NOT come to forgive sins but that through Him we might be overcomers as He is. The cross is about holiness not forgiveness.

Therefore let us not sin. Grace is not be used as a license to sin, that's for sure. I realize some new believers might have battles in some areas before ceasing from their former life of sin in every area, but I did not find it hard to cease lying, fornication, swearing, gossiping, etc. The Lord even delivered me from addiction to cigarettes. But after that we go on to perfection and taking more ground in being cleansed from inadvertent sins and inner heart issues, etc. As time goes on we start to see and realize in His light that we still have hidden corners of our heart that need to be swept clean, and ultimately as I believe, to surrender up our very will to the Lord.

Here again I find what you are saying to be strange and I can't agree with it: the cross is about forgiveness too, as well as holiness, as long as we are not abusing that grace.

Act 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 13:37-39
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1Jo 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Even the Lord's supper, remembering His death on the cross, is about forgiveness and bringing things to the cross as we have need...that is why we are to examine ourselves before partaking it.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I think it is a kind of possession, but one where we are willing. When God does the work and we just go along for the ride, so to speak.

I can understand you saying and thinking that but I’m cautious too because I thought I was willing to give up my life and then when everything began to be taken from me I was not at all willing. My attitude became bad from how overwhelming it was, over the course of about at least 14 or 15 years, just one hit after another after another. My attitude was a bit like, He must really hate me to do all this to me. I must be the worst case imaginable for Him to be so cruel and punishing. But then I read Job and saw that he wasnt willing to have all that happen to him. He didn’t agree to it. And I also saw God didn’t do any of it, satan did. God permitted it but he permitted it for good in the end. He literally used satan and what was meant with sheer malice and evil God used to Jobs advantage. So at least with some of us, He doesn’t wait until we’re willing, He just allows to be done what is necessary because we don’t belong to ourselves, we belong to Him and He will do whatever He pleases to have us and bless us.
To my shame, I was not willing that God do to me whatever it pleases Him to do, to me in me on me with me, until AFTER I saw some good by it. And even then, it took seeing myself as I truly was and the overwhelming revulsion of seeing it that I said death would be preferable to living with this foul person. That was when I was truly willing to just chuck it all in great disgust, to give up any control, to have any say, or even to feel sorry for myself.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Here again I find what you are saying to be strange and I can't agree with it: the cross is about forgiveness too, as well as holiness, as long as we are not abusing that grace.

I don’t think it’s wrong to think He died so I could SEE that He loves me and forgives me, but MY cross is not picked up so I can be forgiven. My cross has one goal, to kill me - and I am now in agreement on that. MY cross does not work to reform me or make me kinder, politer, not so mean, not as rude, more loving and forgiving, to make my flesh behave more. (Scripture can have some limited effect there, but not my cross). My cross is not meant to improve my self, my ego, my selfishness, my self will - it’s meant to KILL my flesh, not improve it.

 

[Episkopos]

Therefore let us not sin. Grace is not be used as a license to sin, that's for sure. I realize some new believers might have battles in some areas before ceasing from their former life of sin in every area, but I did not find it hard to cease lying, fornication, swearing, gossiping, etc. The Lord even delivered me from addiction to cigarettes. But after that we go on to perfection and taking more ground in being cleansed from inadvertent sins and inner heart issues, etc. As time goes on we start to see and realize in His light that we still have hidden corners of our heart that need to be swept clean, and ultimately as I believe, to surrender up our very will to the Lord.

Here again I find what you are saying to be strange and I can't agree with it: the cross is about forgiveness too, as well as holiness, as long as we are not abusing that grace.

Act 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 13:37-39
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

1Jo 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Even the Lord's supper, remembering His death on the cross, is about forgiveness and bringing things to the cross as we have need...that is why we are to examine ourselves before partaking it.

Are you saying that God never forgave any sins until after Jesus died on the cross? Show me one passage that shows that God was unable to be merciful because He is so wrathful as to be unforgiving...even as He expects us to be forgiving without sacrifice.

is not our forgiveness dependent on how we forgive others?

Explain God's forgiveness before and after the cross. Then explain God's holiness in His people before and after the cross. Dare to compare.

 

[Lizbeth]

I can understand you saying and thinking that but I’m cautious too because I thought I was willing to give up my life and then when everything began to be taken from me I was not at all willing. My attitude became bad from how overwhelming it was, over the course of about at least 14 or 15 years, just one hit after another after another. My attitude was a bit like, He must really hate me to do all this to me. I must be the worst case imaginable for Him to be so cruel and punishing. But then I read Job and saw that he wasnt willing to have all that happen to him. He didn’t agree to it. And I also saw God didn’t do any of it, satan did. God permitted it but he permitted it for good in the end. He literally used satan and what was meant with sheer malice and evil God used to Jobs advantage. So at least with some of us, He doesn’t wait until we’re willing, He just allows to be done what is necessary because we don’t belong to ourselves, we belong to Him and He will do whatever He pleases to have us and bless us.
To my shame, I was not willing that God do to me whatever it pleases Him to do, to me in me on me with me, until AFTER I saw some good by it. And even then, it took seeing myself as I truly was and the overwhelming revulsion of seeing it that I said death would be preferable to living with this foul person. That was when I was truly willing to just chuck it all in great disgust, to give up any control, to have any say, or even to feel sorry for myself.

Yes, the Lord does with us as He pleases, for our good, that we may partake of His holiness. Maybe we could say He does whatever is necessary to MAKE us willing, especially when we are praying to be made willing (eg, like David). I'm thinking of the bondslave who after serving the mandatory seven years and is set free, remains to serve his master out of love, no longer under compulsion, and covenants to having his ear pierced at the master's doorpost. Paul called himself a bondslave.

 

[Lizbeth]

Are you saying that God never forgave any sins until after Jesus died on the cross? Show me one passage that shows that God was unable to be merciful because He is so wrathful as to be unforgiving...even as He expects us to be forgiving without sacrifice.

is not our forgiveness dependent on how we forgive others?

Explain God's forgiveness before and after the cross. Then explain God's holiness in His people before and after the cross. Dare to compare.

All I know is what those scriptures say. We are forgiven through the blood of Christ, through faith in His blood, in Him. Can't fathom anyone saying the cross is not about forgiveness. Maybe you are overthinking it.

I believe that before the cross, there was forgiveness through faith as well. But it wasn't fulfilled in those saints until Jesus died and rose from the dead. The scripture that says in Heb 11, " God provided something better for us that they would not be made perfect apart from us."

And there is a difference between God forgiving/overlooking specific deeds so as to not punish them in this life, as opposed to the kind of wholesale forgiveness that is unto eternal life. For example when we forgive someone their trespass against us and pray for them......God will not punish them for that particular trespass, but it doesn't mean they are saved that way...if they still have other sins and their general state of iniquity that has not been forgiven because they do not know the Lord. The forgiveness we receive through faith in Christ is a wholesale forgiveness as I think of it.

 

[Episkopos]

All I know is what those scriptures say. We are forgiven through the blood of Christ, through faith in His blood, in Him. Can't fathom anyone saying the cross is not about forgiveness. Maybe you are overthinking it.

LOL...critical thinking goes overboard if you take any given translation as much credence as the original scriptures.

I think you are underthinking it in that you trust in translations...according to the spirit of the age.

The word you read as forgiveness is actually freedom from sin....aphesis.

I believe that before the cross, there was forgiveness through faith as well. But it wasn't fulfilled in those saints until Jesus died and rose from the dead. The scripture that says in Heb 11, " God provided something better for us that they would not be made perfect apart from us."

Do you know what being made perfect means?

 

[Lizbeth]

I don’t think it’s wrong to think He died so I could SEE that He loves me and forgives me, but MY cross is not picked up so I can be forgiven. My cross has one goal, to kill me - and I am now in agreement on that. MY cross does not work to reform me or make me kinder, politer, not so mean, not as rude, more loving and forgiving, to make my flesh behave more. (Scripture can have some limited effect there, but not my cross). My cross is not meant to improve my self, my ego, my selfishness, my self will - it’s meant to KILL my flesh, not improve it.

Agree with this up to a point. It's because of HIS cross that we are forgiven........and not until then do we begin to take up OUR cross. We love Him because He first loved us. But I think our cross does have the effect of improving us along the way too, there is an aspect that we take ground and overcome our "enemies" little by little in the Promised Land, but also the end goal of it all is the death of all that we call self. The battles are necessary in God's wisdom that we not be overtaken by our own wild beasts of things like pride. If it were to come too easily it would only spoil us, for such is the perverse and intractable nature of man.

Deu 7:22
And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee.

 

[Lizbeth]

LOL...critical thinking goes overboard if you take any given translation as much credence as the original scriptures.

I think you are underthinking it in that you trust in translations...according to the spirit of the age.

The word you read as forgiveness is actually freedom from sin....aphesis.

Freedom from sin........is talking about being forgiven, freed and released from the debt of it. To clean the slate and start again. It also means being delivered from its power. But it is not right to confine it to either one or the other meaning. I hope most who come to faith no longer walk according to their former lives before knowing the Lord, unless they backslide...so they have been delivered from their sin. But even so, not yet perfected..... we still need refining.

Do you know what being made perfect means?

There are three senses of perfect in scripture that I seem to have seen. One is the perfection that speaks of going from the Law to grace, from the old covenant to the new covenant by faith. That is the perfection/culmination that this verse is referring to concerning old testament saints, "they would not be made perfect without us". Heb 7:19 as well..."the law made nothing perfect". Next is the perfection of refining.....ultimately to become "spiritual", in the spirit, concerning those after we have been saved through faith....which is what these discussions have been about...."let us go on to perfection" through being refined....continuing on and growing, not sitting on our laurels camping out permanently on the shore of the Red Sea. Thirdly I believe is the perfection that comes after death of the body when mortality puts on immortality. The last enemy to be defeated is death. Luke 13:32 "Go and tell that fox....the third day I will be perfected."

 

[IndianaRob]

LOL...critical thinking goes overboard if you take any given translation as much credence as the original scriptures.

How do you figure that? People can’t even agree on which copies of the originals are the right ones.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I don’t know Lizbeth, I’ve gone through a lot of his threads and he does not seek you out, you seek him out. You say it’s because you find no one else who teaches about holiness. So you seem to want to learn about it while also claiming it. you seem to want To learn about it while also thinking you can teach about it to the one teaching about it. None of this makes sense to me. You seem stonefaced determined that you will get the man to agree with you or die trying. It’s like…I want to learn from you what you know as you are the only one I’ve found who understands it but I must teach you what you need to know first so you can think everything I think before we begin. It’s like saying, I want to learn from you but first I have to teach you. its almost like you want him to reflect yourself back to you. In the history of the world, (or even cinematic history) has anyone ever climbed mountains and forded streams to get to where a master of some thing or some discipline lived so they could…teach him?

 

[shepherdsword]

Epi has the best threads on this forum. They have great depth. Whether you agree or disagree with him you have to admit...he stirs the pot and provokes others to seek out the truth. It's a breath of fresh air from the "one saved always saves" and the "pre-trib rapture debates". Everything else just seems so plastic and shallow.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I wonder how many can detect the "nuance" between what is taught in present day church circles and what the bible actually says...

Ex. If while we seek to be justified by Christ we are found to be sinners...is Christ therefore a minister of forgiveness? And the whole congregation shouted AMEN!!!!

Whereas in the bible we read...“But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." Gal 2:17-18

Jesus did NOT come to forgive sins but that through Him we might be overcomers as He is. The cross is about holiness not forgiveness.

It HAS always seemed strange to me that God can forgive a man his sins only if He kills an innocent man. I just figured there was something I wasn’t seeing because it didn’t seem right to me.

In that Galatians verse I don’t understand what the last sentence is saying.