"Rich Man" and "Lazarus" and eternal torment

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RR144

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Does Christ's statement as to the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" teach that the wicked go to eternal torment at death?

There is not a single word in this much discussed parable about the Rich Man being a wicked man or the Poor Man being a good man. Therefore, it could be positively stated that there is nothing said about the wicked going to eternal torment at death. To interpret the story literally just as it reads, as so many are prone to do who believe in the theory of eternal torment for nearly every one but themselves, involves one in a number of absurdities. It would signify that all who are clad in purple and fine linen and who fare sumptuously every day, are at death to be placed in a furnace of fire and tormented. It would also mean that unless we were poverty stricken beggars, the companion of dogs, full of sores, and fed on crumbs at some rich man's back gate, we would never be able to wing our flight to Abraham's bosom when we departed this life. Poor Abraham would experience considerable difficulty in clasping all of the poor to his expansive bosom! The parable, rightly understood, does not in the remotest degree teach the monstrous doctrine of eternal torment.

Conceding that the "Rich man and Lazarus" is a parable, representing the Jews' and the Gentiles' positions of favor and disfavor during this Christian Age, the question arises concerning the figure itself: (a) Is it not a well- known fact that our Lord used everyday occurrences and things to make up the various figures and "dark sayings" (sheep, goats, seed, sower, harvest, reaper, stewards, etc.)? Then why did Lazarus die to be carried to Abraham's bosom? Why must the "Rich Man" be alive in torment when he is DEAD? If "hell" is a place of "forgetfulness," why did the "Rich Man" remember his "five brothers?"

The Scriptures were written and arranged in such a way by the Lord, through the inspired writers that they could not be understood excepting by those who would come into harmony with Him by faith and obedience. The Lord is pleased to enlighten His children by the operation of the holy spirit through His Divine purposes. It is related of our Lord Jesus, that in all of His teachings He addressed the multitudes in parables and dark sayings and then afterwards explained them to His disciples. (Mark 4:11,33,34) The parable of "The Rich Man and the Poor Man" is a remarkable prophecy of conditions relating to the Jews and the Gentiles and, we believe, could have been stated in no other way without disclosing the realities which was evidently intended by the Lord should remain disguised or concealed from the world in general and whose real significance would be known only by His devoted followers. The entire book of Revelation is composed of prophecies thus concealed in signs, symbols and figures.
 

Patrick1966

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In biblical context, torment alludes to refining. Also, the only period of time that is "eternal" is when we all live with God in his kingdom in the new Earth.
 
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exEnigma

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For me, the context in Luke 16 speaking of Lazarus and the rich man is one that Jesus' frequently brought up - a context of challenging the pharisees to reconsider the nature of what Abrahamic lineage means. They thought they were an entitled lot. Jesus tried to point out that the poor get a shot at Abraham too. He was trying to tell them, the lowly and meek and poor have access to the kingdom - to Abrahamic lineage. Of course I have a soft spot for the pharisees - they were diligent faithful hard working scholastic men of God.
 

David in NJ

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For me, the context in Luke 16 speaking of Lazarus and the rich man is one that Jesus' frequently brought up - a context of challenging the pharisees to reconsider the nature of what Abrahamic lineage means. They thought they were an entitled lot. Jesus tried to point out that the poor get a shot at Abraham too. He was trying to tell them, the lowly and meek and poor have access to the kingdom - to Abrahamic lineage. Of course I have a soft spot for the pharisees - they were diligent faithful hard working scholastic men of God.
Good truthful Post except i am not persuaded with the pharisee ending.

"pharisees - they were diligent faithful hard working scholastic men" = fixed it for you

Men of a god who cried out "crucify Him, crucify Him - we have no king but Ceasar!"

"There is nothing new under the sun - what has been will be"
 

David in NJ

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Jesus words indicate to us that Luke 16:14-31 is not a parable.

The parables that Jesus began in Luke ch15 carried over into Luke 16:1-13.

After Luke 16:1-13, Jesus begins speaking direct non-parable warnings and truth = Luke 16:14-31
 
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Davy

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There are other New Testament Scriptures that proclaim the existence of Paradise in the Heavenly, so those who 'try' to claim Jesus was just making up a fake story about that kind thing with Lazarus and the rich man go against all those other... Bible Scriptures too (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7).

One may call what Jesus gave in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man as just a 'story' or 'parable', BUT the parameters in it that Jesus gave WERE REAL. Paradise in the Heavenly is a REAL place.

Too often those who try to downplay Christ's lesson about Lazarus and the rich man want to call it just a parable because they want us to believe Jesus just made it up, and thus likewise had to have made up His idea about where Lazarus and the rich man were taken to after they died and their bodies buried. No, Jesus was describing a REAL place, and a REAL division in Paradise between the side Abraham was on, and the other side of hell where the rich man was taken.

The Bible student also needs to remember this...

The orthodox unbelieving Jews do not believe when our flesh dies that our soul with spirit goes back to the Heavenly where it came from. They instead believe the soul dies with our flesh with both buried in the ground, and only come back to life together at the resurrection. This is where the 'dead in the ground' theory began, and many Christian Church systems wrongly teach it against God's Word, especially the New Testament that gives more detail about the separation of our spirit and soul from our flesh at flesh death. So this description Lord Jesus gave in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man taken to Paradise after their flesh bodies died, they are against, and that is one of the main reasons they want to claim Jesus just made it all up.
 
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Anima

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Does Christ's statement as to the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" teach that the wicked go to eternal torment at death?

There is not a single word in this much discussed parable about the Rich Man being a wicked man or the Poor Man being a good man. Therefore, it could be positively stated that there is nothing said about the wicked going to eternal torment at death. To interpret the story literally just as it reads, as so many are prone to do who believe in the theory of eternal torment for nearly every one but themselves, involves one in a number of absurdities. It would signify that all who are clad in purple and fine linen and who fare sumptuously every day, are at death to be placed in a furnace of fire and tormented. It would also mean that unless we were poverty stricken beggars, the companion of dogs, full of sores, and fed on crumbs at some rich man's back gate, we would never be able to wing our flight to Abraham's bosom when we departed this life. Poor Abraham would experience considerable difficulty in clasping all of the poor to his expansive bosom! The parable, rightly understood, does not in the remotest degree teach the monstrous doctrine of eternal torment.

Conceding that the "Rich man and Lazarus" is a parable, representing the Jews' and the Gentiles' positions of favor and disfavor during this Christian Age, the question arises concerning the figure itself: (a) Is it not a well- known fact that our Lord used everyday occurrences and things to make up the various figures and "dark sayings" (sheep, goats, seed, sower, harvest, reaper, stewards, etc.)? Then why did Lazarus die to be carried to Abraham's bosom? Why must the "Rich Man" be alive in torment when he is DEAD? If "hell" is a place of "forgetfulness," why did the "Rich Man" remember his "five brothers?"

The Scriptures were written and arranged in such a way by the Lord, through the inspired writers that they could not be understood excepting by those who would come into harmony with Him by faith and obedience. The Lord is pleased to enlighten His children by the operation of the holy spirit through His Divine purposes. It is related of our Lord Jesus, that in all of His teachings He addressed the multitudes in parables and dark sayings and then afterwards explained them to His disciples. (Mark 4:11,33,34) The parable of "The Rich Man and the Poor Man" is a remarkable prophecy of conditions relating to the Jews and the Gentiles and, we believe, could have been stated in no other way without disclosing the realities which was evidently intended by the Lord should remain disguised or concealed from the world in general and whose real significance would be known only by His devoted followers. The entire book of Revelation is composed of prophecies thus concealed in signs, symbols and figures.

The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in full can be found in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, p. 154

The rich man had all good things, Lazarus all bad things, but he turned evil into good, whereas the rich man did nothing but evil of all the good things. Therefore, the justice of God saw that Lazarus receive the reward of Heaven, because he loved Him and his neighbor, and the rich man suffering in Hell.

Do not hate, never, for any reason, whatsoever. Hatred is strong in the world, but it always has a limit. Love has no limit of power or time. Love therefore, to possess love, as a defense and comfort on the earth, and as a reward in Heaven. It is better to be Lazarus than the rich man. Believe that and you will be blessed. That's Jesus's meaning of the parable.

"who [God] will repay each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation." (Rom. 2:6-8)
 

JPPT1974

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The word hate is a strong word. Usually do the best to use dislike. But really Lazarus was rich in eternity. Not with dollar signs mind you all. But that he received his reward in heaven that is what you want. Eternity with Christ. Rich man could had given his riches to the poor and less fortunate but sadly choose not to do that. Sadly his loss.
 

face2face

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There are other New Testament Scriptures that proclaim the existence of Paradise in the Heavenly, so those who 'try' to claim Jesus was just making up a fake story about that kind thing with Lazarus and the rich man go against all those other... Bible Scriptures too (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7).
One must see the text as being "extraordinarily" different to all other Scriptures! We have already established the context and back story to its meaning and application to the Pharisees here: The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus
 

face2face

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One may call what Jesus gave in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man as just a 'story' or 'parable', BUT the parameters in it that Jesus gave WERE REAL. Paradise in the Heavenly is a REAL place.
I get why you want it to be literal, but the evidence is so overwhelmingly in favor of a parable, and one specifically designed with the Pharisees in mind, using their false teachings to condemn them for their lack of compassion on their brothers and sisters. We have already established it fails to sync with mainstream Christian belief on Heaven going - you just can't make it fit anywhere hence it's uniqueness in all Scripture.