Righteousness is thru our faith and our works

[Raccoon1010]

I've heard people talk about righteousness by obeying the law, that they have become righteous. And I was reading Romans 4 today and found that to be not entirely true. Lately I have started threads where we discussed that the rich man was promised eternal life if he lived the commandments perfectly. And if not then he was a sinner. How many of us have sold our possessions and given them to the poor and followed after Christ? If not then are works are to our debt. Let us live by faith in God that it might be accounted us as righteousness.

Romans 4:1-5

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I've heard people talk about righteousness by obeying the law, that they have become righteous. And I was reading Romans 4 today and found that to be incorrect. Lately I have started threads where we discussed that the rich man was promised eternal life if he lived the commandments perfectly. And if not then he was a sinner. How many of us have sold our possessions and given them to the poor and followed after Christ? If not then are works are to our debt. Let us live by faith in God that it might be accounted us as righteousness.

Romans 4:1-5

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

So you say faith Dev, and another will say works. Are you wrong? No! Are they wrong? No! Both of those are a requirement for life, but all who have works have faith, but do all who have faith have works? Not necessarily. The Bible makes it rather clear what is required for salvation when Jesus returns, you have to know God, and you have to obey the gospel, that being the law of the Christ sir 2 Thes 1:8; Gal 6:2

 

[Raccoon1010]

So you say faith Dev, and another will say works. Are you wrong? No! Are they wrong? No! Both of those are a requirement for life, but all who have works have faith, but do all who have faith have works? Not necessarily. The Bible makes it rather clear what is required for salvation when Jesus returns, you have to know God, and you have to obey the gospel, that being the law of the Christ sir 2 Thes 1:8; Gal 6:2

Our works increase our debt. Have you read the OP scripture? Paul made it clear. Yes we are told to obey the commandments. But we do a poor job of that, so we are all sinners. The scripture in the OP make much clear.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

it also says in the Bible that Abraham's works made his faith complete.

 

[Jim B]

it also says in the Bible that Abraham's works made his faith complete.

Abraham showed his faith to be genuine by what he did.

Romans 4:1-3, "What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”"

Paul and James disagree.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Abraham showed his faith to be genuine by what he did.

Romans 4:1-3, "What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”"

Paul and James disagree.

James 2:23-25

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

His righteousness was that he believed God. He was justified by works. They are different. One is righteousness, the other is justification.

 

[Raccoon1010]

it also says in the Bible that Abraham's works made his faith complete.

Faith without works is dead yes. But Paul makes it clear that our works add to our debt. So we are as little children needing to be lead by the Holy Spirit to do good works. And that is of God.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Regarding post #6, what do we know about justification as taught by Jesus:

Parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee:

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Raccoon1010]

In fact I would say that we are to provide works meet for repentance, and Christ justifies us as we repent of being selfish.

Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

[marks]

I've heard people talk about righteousness by obeying the law, that they have become righteous. And I was reading Romans 4 today and found that to be incorrect. Lately I have started threads where we discussed that the rich man was promised eternal life if he lived the commandments perfectly. And if not then he was a sinner. How many of us have sold our possessions and given them to the poor and followed after Christ? If not then are works are to our debt. Let us live by faith in God that it might be accounted us as righteousness.

Romans 4:1-5

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

My thinking is that those who think they can make themself acceptible to God by their works do not understand righteousness, or God's holy standard.

And of course Paul eschewed righteousness by works, what he wanted was the righteousness of God through faith.

Philippians 3:7-11 YLT
7) But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
8) yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
9) not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ—the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
10) to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death,
11) if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead.

Much love!

 

[Raccoon1010]

My thinking is that those who think they can make themself acceptible to God by their works do not understand righteousness, or God's holy standard.

And of course Paul eschewed righteousness by works, what he wanted was the righteousness of God through faith.

Philippians 3:7-11 YLT
7) But what things were to me gains, these I have counted, because of the Christ, loss;
8) yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him,
9) not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ—the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
10) to know him, and the power of his rising again, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death,
11) if anyhow I may attain to the rising again of the dead.

Much love!

Yes, I think we follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit of God, and he is righteous and directs us to do righteous things. And they are works meet for repentance. But perhaps they are not my righteousness but God's and are accounted for him. But if I believe God and do the works perhaps it will please God. Because I believe in him and have faith.

 

[marks]

James 2:23-25

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

His righteousness was that he believed God. He was justified by works. They are different. One is righteousness, the other is justification.

And we must not overlook the contexts. James is talking about what others can see. Abraham was justified by God because Abraham believed God. Abraham was justified by his works in that others can see his works which show his faith. They can't see his faith, but they can see his works. God could see Abraham's faith, and didn't need works to prove what God already knew.

James 2:18 KJV
18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Much love!

 

[Raccoon1010]

Interesting as I'm trying to learn the scriptures here, but in the KJV bible it has a definition for righteous which is also applied to the saints of God.

RIGHTEOUS, a. ri'chus.

1. Just; accordant to the divine law. Applied to persons, it denotes one who is holy in heart, and observant of the divine commands in practice; as a righteous man. Applied to things, it denotes consonant to the divine will or to justice; as a righteous act. It is used chiefly in theology, and applied to God, to his testimonies and to his saints.

The righteous, in Scripture, denote the servants of God, the saints.

2. Just; equitable; merited.

 

[amadeus]

Faith without works is dead yes. But Paul makes it clear that our works add to our debt. So we are as little children needing to be lead by the Holy Spirit to do good works. And that is of God.

Jas 2:17	Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18	Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works

 

[Jim B]

Jas 2:17	Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18	Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works

What exactly are "works" as defined here? Suppose, for one reason or another, a person because of some physical or mental disability, cannot perform "works". Is that person "dead" spiritually?

A person can have a deep, abiding faith and a true love of God. That is all that is necessary! "Works" are a bonus, but claiming superiority by one's works is not from God.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: righteousness is through our faith, not our works?
"
By God's "Grace Through faith" Correct, and the confusion of mixing this
'Body Of Christ / Mystery-Grace Context' up with:

Israel's 'prophecy / law-covenants Context' should be solved by God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

Please review: I have decided to Follow Jesus?

Amen?

 

[Raccoon1010]

Jas 2:17	Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18	Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works

Yes, Jesus taught the rich man to obey the commandments, sell all he had and give it to the poor. And then Jesus would save him.

And we are taught to provide fruits meet for repentance.

I see that the church described in scripture had all things in common and everything was given to each according to their needs. And they were living this way to become justified by God. Perhaps they were made righteous also by their faith and works?

Acts 2:44-45 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

 

[Raccoon1010]

I'm going to change the title of the thread as I see works can justify a person because God provides for it.

 

[amadeus]

What exactly are "works" as defined here? Suppose, for one reason or another, a person because of some physical or mental disability, cannot perform "works". Is that person "dead" spiritually?

A person can have a deep, abiding faith and a true love of God. That is all that is necessary! "Works" are a bonus, but claiming superiority by one's works is not from God.

The works in the verses I quoted are those things/actions caused by our faith in God. Splitting too many hairs may cause more problems for people than they help. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit. If we are, will not the appropriate works follow? If we are not, then what sort of works should be expected? So then again...

Ro 8:5	For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:6	For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[Lambano]

His righteousness was that he believed God. He was justified by works. They are different. One is righteousness, the other is justification.

The words are cognate in the Greek.

• Adjective form: δίκαιος ("dikaios") - righteous, as one ought to be; in a court setting, judged to be in the right.
• Verb form: δικαιόω ("dikaioo") - to justify; to make right; to show to be right; in a court setting, to declare to be in the right.
• Noun form: δικαιοσύνη ("dikaiosune") - righteousness; the state of him who is as he ought to be; justice; the rendering unto each his due.

Net-net: We're God's covenant people. God has counted our trust in Him, our trust in Jesus, and judged us to be "in the right". Trust God, trust Jesus, try to do the right thing.