Roman Catholicism Is Blasphemy

[Selene]

By definition, 'blasphemy' means the treatment of God/Christ in an irreverent or impious manner.

Roman Catholics have informed me, and they refuse to renounce the following Roman Catholic belief:


So, YES, the Roman Catholics have elevated their church to the level of the deity, Christ. Such belief certainly classifies as 'blasphemy'.

Hello Watchman

You are INCORRECT when you say that we have elevated our Church to the level of a deity. Catholics do not believe that the Church is a deity. We believe in God the Father, and we know that Christ built His Church and we have always claimed to be that Church. It is true that we believe that the Church is both the "Bride of Christ" and the "Body of Christ." If you believe that YOUR church is actually the Church that Christ built, don't you think you would also be calling your church "the Bride of Christ" and the "Body of Christ" just as it says in the Bible (See Revelations 21:9 and 1 Corinthians 12:27). Catholics also say that the Head and Founder of their Church is Jesus Christ just as it says in the Bible. If you believe that the head and founder of your church is Christ, then wouldn't you say so just as it says in the Bible (See Ephesians 5:23)?

Catholics call their Church the "Bride and body of Christ" because that is who we are. If you don't call your church the "Bride of Christ," then perhaps you should look into who founded your church in the first place. Catholics believe that the Founder and Head of their Church is Christ. Because Christ Himself is the fullness of Truth who dwells and lives in our Church as our Founder and Head, then naturally, we would say that we have salvation within our Church because Christ who is salvation is in our Church. If you cannot say that about YOUR church, then perhaps you need to investigate who is the founder and the head of your church.

Matthew 18:17-20 And if he will not hear them: tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican......For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Look at the above Scripture. It says that if there is a problem with a brother or sister, we are to turn to the Church. Why? Because Christ is the Founder and Head of our Church and He is there in our midst. Salvation comes only through Christ who we believe is in our Church as our Founder and Head. Is Christ the Founder and Head of YOUR Church? Christ, who is salvation, is in our Church as our Head and Founder; therefore, salvation is found in our Church, and If you cannot say that about YOUR church, what does that tell you? God bless.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[242006]

Hello Selene,

Please do not call me a liar -- I accurately quoted a devout Catholic, who claimed that such position of the RCC is in the Catechism and, therefore, he would never renounce it. Clearly, such position of the RCC is defeated by the scriptures in Matthew, which you posted. Furthermore, we are instructed to not judge salvation [Mat. 7:1] -- Christ is the saviour...not the Catholic Church.

I was a member at a forum owned and operated by Catholics. When I confronted them with their blasphemy, as represented in the quoted position in my prior post, none of them renounced it. Such RCC doctrine is the doctrine of church -- not the doctrine of Christ. In accordance with the Word [2Joh. 1:9-10], I repudiated those Catholics as they are non-christians. Of course, I was banned from that site.

To call a church the bride of Christ is a complete misrepresentation of the Bible [one of many falsehoods perpetuated by the RCC]. The bride of Christ is determined on an individual basis -- not upon the collective. See the parable of the 10 virgins [Mat. 25:1-13]. Hence, belonging to the RCC will not necessarily bring salvation to any member thereof.

 

[Selene]

Hello Selene,

Please do not call me a liar -- I accurately quoted a devout Catholic, who claimed that such position of the RCC is in the Catechism and, therefore, he would never renounce it. Clearly, such position of the RCC is defeated by the scriptures in Matthew, which you posted. Furthermore, we are instructed to not judge salvation [Mat. 7:1] -- Christ is the saviour...not the Catholic Church.

I was a member at a forum owned and operated by Catholics. When I confronted them with their blasphemy, as represented in the quoted position in my prior post, none of them renounced it. Such RCC doctrine is the doctrine of church -- not the doctrine of Christ. In accordance with the Word [2Joh. 1:9-10], I repudiated those Catholics as they are non-christians. Of course, I was banned from that site.

To call a church the bride of Christ is a complete misrepresentation of the Bible [one of many falsehoods perpetuated by the RCC]. The bride of Christ is determined on an individual basis -- not upon the collective. See the parable of the 10 virgins [Mat. 25:1-13]. Hence, belonging to the RCC will not necessarily bring salvation to any member thereof.

My brother, I never said that you are a liar. I said that you are incorrect when you said that we have elevated our Church to a deity. No Catholic believe nor call the Catholic Church a "God." Even the quotes you provided is not saying that the Catholic Church is a "God." I explained the reason why we are the "Bride and Body of Christ." If you had actually read my post, I said that salvation is found in our Church because Christ, who is salvation, is in our Church as the Founder and Head. The Bride of the Lamb is an assembly of people. It is a Church.

Revelations 21:9-10 And there came one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying: Come, and I will shew thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he took me up in spirit to a great and high mountain: and he shewed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

The Lamb is Christ for He is the Lamb of God. And according to Scripture, when the angel showed St. John the wife of the lamb, it was NOT an individual, but the new city of Jerusalem that came out of Heaven from God. We have never claimed that our Church was built by men. We are a Church built by God through the Apostle Peter. We are a Church that have the authority to bind and loose things on earth and on Heaven for Christ says, "that what we bind and loose on earth will also be bound and loose in Heaven." We call ourselves the "Bride and body of Christ" because as I told you, Christ is the Head of our Church. As St. Paul points out, the husband is the Head and the wife is the Body. Christ is our Head. He is the savior of the Church, His body.

Ephesians 5:23-29 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the Head of the church. He is the saviour of His body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:.......So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Who is the Head and Founder of your church? If you cannot call your church the "Bride of Christ" or the "Body of Christ" then perhaps you need to ask who founded your church.


In Christ,
Selene

 

[242006]

Selene,

You can quote Bible all day long and it makes no difference to the blasphemous position of the RCC, as set forth in the following quote, which comes from the Catechism:

. . . all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .

. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .

The RCC promotes the doctrine of church -- not the doctrine of Christ. Hence, as long as Catholics believe in such nonsense, Christians have a duty to ostracize Catholics as non-christians.

Christ judges the RCC [Rev. 2:2-6] out as a Christian Church. Though Christ does not inform us as to what doctrine of the RCC that needs to be repented of in order to bring the RCC into the family of Christian Churches, I would surmise it is the quoted position, which, unmistakedly, places the RCC as the means for salvation -- all other Churches being unsaved.

I urge you to admonish your church heirarchy for such blasphemy and demand that they repent thereof!

 

[mcorba]

. . . all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .



. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .


Selene & Watchman - interesting debate, both making good points.

Regarding the above, the first quote is typical of previous attitudes in the Catholic church, in which I was raised,
but I do suspect that with recent reviews (1960s?) official positions have changed.

At least this is what I gathered from a local Monsignor, who assured me that one change in stance means that any denomination member can find their way to God through trust and belief in Jesus Christ.
Now he has either said this to me in error, which is unlikely, as he has Vatican links, or the position has changed. Selene, do you know of this?

Re the second statement above, this is in line with other Christian denomination beliefs, right? It doesnt semantically state that ONLY through the Catholic church....thoughts?

Mike

 

[Selene]

. . . all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .



. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .


Selene & Watchman - interesting debate, both making good points.

Regarding the above, the first quote is typical of previous attitudes in the Catholic church, in which I was raised,
but I do suspect that with recent reviews (1960s?) official positions have changed.

At least this is what I gathered from a local Monsignor, who assured me that one change in stance means that any denomination member can find their way to God through trust and belief in Jesus Christ.
Now he has either said this to me in error, which is unlikely, as he has Vatican links, or the position has changed. Selene, do you know of this?

Re the second statement above, this is in line with other Christian denomination beliefs, right? It doesnt semantically state that ONLY through the Catholic church....thoughts?

Mike

Hello Mike,

There are a few people who call themselves Catholics who preach that a person can only be saved if they are a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Father Leonard Feeny, a priest in Massachusetts, who preached this teaching was excommunicated by the Pope in 1949 because this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Romans Catholics must follow the Holy See. The teachings of the Holy See is that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ can be saved despite that they are NOT members of the Catholic Church. That is also in the Catechism of the Catholic Church #838. Therefore, the Monsignor you spoke to was correct. Any denomination member can find their way to God through trust and belief in Jesus Christ. The priest in Massachesetts, on the other hand, was excommunicated by the Church in 1949 because he went against the teachings of the true Roman Catholic Church and her Catechism.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[242006]

. . . all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .



. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .


Selene & Watchman - interesting debate, both making good points.

Regarding the above, the first quote is typical of previous attitudes in the Catholic church, in which I was raised,
but I do suspect that with recent reviews (1960s?) official positions have changed.

At least this is what I gathered from a local Monsignor, who assured me that one change in stance means that any denomination member can find their way to God through trust and belief in Jesus Christ.
Now he has either said this to me in error, which is unlikely, as he has Vatican links, or the position has changed. Selene, do you know of this?

Re the second statement above, this is in line with other Christian denomination beliefs, right? It doesnt semantically state that ONLY through the Catholic church....thoughts?

Mike

Thanks for your input. Of course, I cannot speak for the RCC as to its official position. I would surmise that there are a great number of Catholics that do not subscribe to those positions. I was surprised at the other [Catholic] forum that no Catholic was willing to renounce such beliefs.

I am not aware that any Protestant denomination claims that all means of salvation subsists in that specific denomination alone. Nor am I aware of any claim that all mankind is saved through that church denomination. If so, such Protestant denomination would be equally blasphemous as the RCC. Any Bible student should be righteously indignant to any denominational claim of exclusivity, as the RCC has done. Moreover, the plain substitution of the church name for the sole province of Christ, as the RCC has done, is worthy of condemnation.

 

[Selene]

Selene,

You can quote Bible all day long and it makes no difference to the blasphemous position of the RCC, as set forth in the following quote, which comes from the Catechism:




The RCC promotes the doctrine of church -- not the doctrine of Christ. Hence, as long as Catholics believe in such nonsense, Christians have a duty to ostracize Catholics as non-christians.

Christ judges the RCC [Rev. 2:2-6] out as a Christian Church. Though Christ does not inform us as to what doctrine of the RCC that needs to be repented of in order to bring the RCC into the family of Christian Churches, I would surmise it is the quoted position, which, unmistakedly, places the RCC as the means for salvation -- all other Churches being unsaved.

I urge you to admonish your church heirarchy for such blasphemy and demand that they repent thereof!

The doctrine of Christ is in the Church. And what nonsense would that be, my brother? I asked if the Head and Founder of your Church is Christ, and you don't even answer. For us Catholics, we can say with confidence that Christ is the Founder and Head of our Church and therefore, salvation is found in our Church because Christ is in it. Apparantly, you cannot say the same about your church.

Rev. 2:2-6 is not even referring to the Catholic Church. It was referring to the Roman emperor, Nero who ruled over the Roman Empire. At that time, Rome was the enemy of both the Jews (God's chosen people) and the Christians. Rome conquered Israel and oppressed the Jews. Rome also murdered many Christians in the arenas of the colussium. And look at what God has done. God planted His Church in the very heart of the enemy. St. Peter spoke about this Church.....the Church at Babylon (1 Peter 5:13). St. John predicted that the Roman Empire will fall, and that prediction came true. And in the place of the enemy stood God's Church, which became victorious over the enemy.

It's obvious that you did not even bother to read what I stated to Mike about the Catholic Church's position in regards to the other Christian churches.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[242006]

Selene,

The topic here is whether or not Roman Catholicism is blasphemy. Despite your efforts to ameliorate the RCC's beliefs which may be practiced in some local churches, the official position of the RCC is as follows:

. . . all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .

. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .

Such belief is blasphemy as it raises the Catholic Church to the level of Christ. If the Catholic religion substituted 'Christ' for 'the Catholic Church' in the quoted positions, which were taken from the official Catechism, the RCC would not be blaspheming Christ.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see why the RCC has indoctrinated [brainwashed] its congregations to believe such nonsense as quoted above. Those that actually believe that nonsense would never leave the Catholic religion -- leaving the religion would mean that one also rejects [what they preceive to be] Christ.

You simply have a flawed understanding. The Doctrine of Christ is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13] -- not any church. A church, as you previously noted, is any two or three gathered in Christ's name. Nowhere in scripture is a church elevated to the status of deity, which the RCC has done in the above quotes from the Catechism.

The funny thing is that the RCC actually knows that Rev. 2:2-6 speaks against them. Why do you think you were taught such a bastardized interpretation of Rev. 2 and 3?? You aren't even remotely close to being correct. The meaning of 'Revelation' or 'Apocalypse' is 'the unveiling'. It makes no sense to provide us an endtime unveiling about events happening in 70 A.D.

Look at Rev. 1 for the basis of understanding the scriptures regarding the 7 churches [church types] that are detailed in Rev. 2 and 3.



Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Clearly, the time frame is the Lord's Day, when John writes the following:


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Without question, that which is written in Rev. 2:2-6 is part of Christ's endtime judgment of the seven churches. Hence, when one reads the following:



Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Surely, the RCC has tried and burned false apostles in history. Certainly, such scripture does not apply to Protestants.

Then, we get further confirmation:



Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.


The RCC claims to be the first church, and has not fainted from the beginning [apostolic succession]. Undoubtedly, this judgment by Christ is of the RCC -- and the RCC knows it.



Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.




How else do you think the word 'somewhat' has crept into the text. The word 'somewhat' is not in the manuscripts [does not belong there either] and was added early on in the Vulgate [English translation thereof].

Time for you to wake up about your religion!

 

[Selene]

Hello Watchman,

Again, it's obvious that you did not read what I posted to Mike; therefore, I will post what I stated below:

Hello Mike,

There are a few people who call themselves Catholics who preach that a person can only be saved if they are a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Father Leonard Feeny, a priest in Massachusetts, who preached this teaching was excommunicated by the Pope in 1949 because this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Romans Catholics must follow the Holy See. The teachings of the Holy See is that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ can be saved despite that they are NOT members of the Catholic Church. That is also in the Catechism of the Catholic Church #838. Therefore, the Monsignor you spoke to was correct. Any denomination member can find their way to God through trust and belief in Jesus Christ. The priest in Massachesetts, on the other hand, was excommunicated by the Church in 1949 because he went against the teachings of the true Roman Catholic Church and her Catechism.

In Christ,
Selene

As you can see, my brother, the Vatican (which is the Roman Catholic Church) teaches that any Christian denomination member can find their way to God through trust and belief in Christ and do not have to be a member of the Catholic Church. The Church cannot judge who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. A priest or bishop who teaches against the teachings of the Catholic faith can and will be excommunicated.

You simply have a flawed understanding. The Doctrine of Christ is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13] -- not any church. A church, as you previously noted, is any two or three gathered in Christ's name. Nowhere in scripture is a church elevated to the status of deity, which the RCC has done in the above quotes from the Catechism.

For your information, the Word of God is Jesus Christ Himself. He is the "Word of God"(John 1:1) and the Word of God is the Founder and Head of our Church.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[242006]

Selene,

I have read all the posts. As I previously presented, the devout Catholics at another forum state uniformly that the official RCC position, as set forth in the Catechism, is as follows:

. . . all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .

. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .

I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the Catholics at the other site. Mike confirmed that, to his knowledge, this blasphemous position was, indeed, RCC doctrine in the past. Hence, your effforts to mitigate this blasphemous position of the RCC with local church application speculation and an excommunication case are not on point at all. It would take an edict from the pope to change official RCC doctrine.

The bottom line is very simple -- either the RCC has repented of this blasphemous position, through an edict from the pope, or the RCC has not repented and still maintains such doctrine. The other Catholics say the quoted position is, in fact, current RCC doctrine. You say it is not. I would guess that, if you are correct, such position would have been deleted from the Catechism. The proof is therein.

Every denomination, including the RCC, claims that Christ is the head of their church. If they did not make such claim, no one would consider it a 'Christian' church. Surely, you can see the distinction between a claim that Christ is the head of each church denomination and a claim that salvation subsists 'solely' in their denomination. The former is expected and legitimate. The latter is blasphemy.

 

[Selene]

Selene,

I have read all the posts. As I previously presented, the devout Catholics at another forum state uniformly that the official RCC position, as set forth in the Catechism, is as follows:





I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the Catholics at the other site. Mike confirmed that, to his knowledge, this blasphemous position was, indeed, RCC doctrine in the past. Hence, your effforts to mitigate this blasphemous position of the RCC with local church application speculation and an excommunication case are not on point at all. It would take an edict from the pope to change official RCC doctrine.

The bottom line is very simple -- either the RCC has repented of this blasphemous position, through an edict from the pope, or the RCC has not repented and still maintains such doctrine. The other Catholics say the quoted position is, in fact, current RCC doctrine. You say it is not. I would guess that, if you are correct, such position would have been deleted from the Catechism. The proof is therein.

Every denomination, including the RCC, claims that Christ is the head of their church. If they did not make such claim, no one would consider it a 'Christian' church. Surely, you can see the distinction between a claim that Christ is the head of each church denomination and a claim that salvation subsists 'solely' in their denomination. The former is expected and legitimate. The latter is blasphemy.

Hello Watchman,

The Pope does not need to issue an edict to change any RCC teaching because it is already in the Catechism. All the doctrines of the Catholic Church are in the Catechisms and Canon Law. The Latin phrase "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" (Outside the Church, there is no salvation) has always been misinterpreted even by Catholics. First of all, the correct English translation is supposed to read "WITHOUT the Church, there is no salvation." If you had looked in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the Latin phrase "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" (CCC #846-848) you will find, that it was referring mainly to the pagans...the non-Christians. Why? Because we believe that salvation comes only from Jesus Christ, who is God, not from Buddah or the Hindu god, or anyone else.

Salvation comes only from Christ, who is God. Christ is our Founder and Head of our Church, and it was Christ who sent His Church to the Gentiles to preach the Good News so that the Gentiles would also come to believe in Him and have salvation. So, salvation came to the Gentiles from Christ through the Church. It was not the Church that gave the Gentiles salvation. It was Christ through the Church that gave it to them. Salvation is found in the Church because Christ is our Head. That is the meaning of the doctrine "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" and it was referring mainly to the non-Christians. Echoing the words of St. Paul, described the Church as the Spouse and Body of Christ. Jesus is one with His Spouse, the Church ( Eph. 5:32). The two form the one Body of Christ visible on earth. Christ is the Head, and He ministers through His body, which is the sacrament of salvation. To whom does He minister? Both His body and those apart from the body, that he might draw all men to Himself. In this way, the Church dispenses to all men the graces of salvation won by Christ. Those who knowingly reject these graces are lost. Those who accept them are saved. Those who do not have the opportunity to accept the grace can be saved because of the presence of the Church in the world (1 Cor. 7:12-16). This is why I asked you several times in my post "Who is the founder and head of YOUR church?"

Secondly, for Christians who are not Catholics, they are in communion with the Catholic Church despite the fact that the communion is imperfect. If you had looked that up, you would have found that in CCC #838. Furthermore, the following is what the Vatican Council says about the Christians who are not Catholics:

[Many] of the most significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Him, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. . . . It follows that these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church” (Decree on Ecumenism, no. 3).

This is why I asked you many times in my post, ""Who is the head of YOUR church?" if you had answered Jesus Christ, then you have received His grace. You know who the One True God is.

Finally, there are actually Catholics who don't know their faith very well. I also go to a Catholic forum board. There was a fellow Catholic in that board who thought that all others who don't belong to the Catholic Church are not saved. I and many other Catholics who are more knowledgeable in the Catechism corrected him. I always advise Catholics to read the Catechisms in order to understand their faith better otherwise they may end up teaching against what the Church teaches.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[forgivenWretch]

I always advise Catholics to read the Catechisms in order to understand their faith better otherwise they may end up teaching against what the Church teaches.

Why are the catechisms placed above the bible?

 

[Selene]

Why are the catechisms placed above the bible?

Where in my post did I say that the Catechisms are placed above the Bible? The Catechisms are not above the Bible.

 

[forgivenWretch]

Where in my post did I say that the Catechisms are placed above the Bible? The Catechisms are not above the Bible.

Why do you not advise them to read the bible

in order to understand their faith better otherwise they may end up teaching against what the Church teaches.

 

[Paul]

That is enough, you can continue the catholic discussion on another forum not here at CB. Post Closed!