Nothing to forgive Dell. I was NOT offended, I was just advising you. FYI, if you want to do it manually please make sure you used the original quote at the beginning of each segment and a /quote within the brackets [ ], at the end of every segment. No more no less. It get's harder for multiple quoters but the simple rule is the first code to open a quote will be closed by the first /quote to close a quote. So if you have three open quote= then you will need 3 /quote to close them all. You don't need to cut and past the whole segment, just the open quote command at the beginning of the post. This rule is the same for ALL BBcoding on any forum. Some forums warn you if your coding is not correct but most don't.
Romans 7:1-25, saved man or unregenerate man?
- Thread starter Dell Russell
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Nothing to forgive Dell. I was NOT offended, I was just advising you. FYI, if you want to do it manually please make sure you used the original quote at the beginning of each segment and a /quote within the brackets [ ], at the end of every segment. No more no less. It get's harder for multiple quoters but the simple rule is the first code to open a quote will be closed by the first /quote to close a quote. So if you have three open quote= then you will need 3 /quote to close them all. You don't need to cut and past the whole segment, just the open quote command at the beginning of the post. This rule is the same for ALL BBcoding on any forum. Some forums warn you if your coding is not correct but most don't.
I would like to take a fresh look at this, highly and sometimes hotly debated, set of verses. Before we can say Romans 7 is or is not a license to sin for the believer, as I have read through the other thread, we must first know if this man is born again or not in this chapter. I have studied this chapter for a number of years now myself and I come to the conclusion it is indeed a lost man. I will also say, because I believe it is a lost man Paul is describing, it drives a stake in the heart of the gospel message when it is interpreted as a saved man.
As I said, I have studied this chapter for a number of years. I think I have read just about every angle used to prove it one way or the other, and I can see how it is interpreted as a saved man, but once all things are considered I do not believe it can be interpreted correctly as a saved man.
What I would like to do is put forth my own personal studies, along with a few I learned from others, as this debate plays out. (I will clarify which ones are my own and which ones that belong to someone else as I come to them. I like to give credit where credit is due.)
I have noticed, as I studied through Romans, that Paul repeats himself a number of times and in these times he reiterates what has been said thus far and then adds a few words as to where he is going with his argument. In these series of verses it is laid out in the same order as the book of Romans itself is laid out. Also we will see that every time where chapter 7 falls it is in the past tense or describes an unregenerate man.
This is not where he begins these series of verses, but because it is very clear and in the same chapter of the subject at hand I will start in Romans 7.
Romans 7:1-6 has been used to argue over marriage and divorce and remarriage, but I will let someone else hash that one out, as I think at this point that is a side issue to the subject of whether or not this is a saved man or not.
Romans 7:2 and 3 is about chapter 5.
Here in these two verses we have a husband and wife analogy. Many believe the first husband mentioned is the law and it is the law that must die in order for the woman to be free to remarry. But that is not the case here. In fact if you have studied Romans you would notice that Paul contrasts a number of things, flesh to spirit, law to faith, Adam to Christ, life to death, and so on. As you notice here we see it is law to faith and Adam to Christ that has been contrasted. So, in understanding this we see Adam would be the first husband and not the law.
In chapter 5 we see our problem is we are born in the line of Adam and him being the head of the human race. The cure for that is we need to be in Christ, but Christ will not or can not become our head until the Adam part of us is put to death. Paul will tell us how that death takes place in chapter 6.
I think why many believe the first husband is the law probably comes from 7:6. It says, "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held..." What we must understand is "what died" and then we will understand how we were delivered from the law. Very simply, the flesh, old man, Adam self was put to death by the way of the cross. And because the flesh part of man is crucified the law no longer reigns and rules over the believer, thus we are delivered from the law.
Romans 7:4 is about chapter 6.
Here we have a one verse description of chapter 6. Just as Romans 6 tells us we have been crucified with Christ and raised with Christ that we have fruits untoiness, this verse (7:4) describes chapter 6 to a T.
Romans 7:5 is about chapter 7.
Here we have a one verse description of the man of chapter 7. Just as 7:5 is in the flesh, so is the man of chapter 7. Just as 7:5 is under the law, so is the man of chapter 7. Just as 7:5 is bound to a life of sin, so is the man of chapter 7.
Romans 7:6 is about chapter 8.
Here we have a one verse description of chapter 8. I'll save the commentary as it is self explainatory.
What is important to notice here is the tenses of the verses of 7:4-6. It goes from present tense, to past tense, back to present tense.
Another reason I believe Romans 7 is seen by many to be a saved man is most likely because the man of chapter 7 is so far removed from the lostness of man described in chapters 1:18-3:20. But we can see Paul continues to bring the lost man back up in these series of verses. We see he does this to contrast the lost man to the saved man in these series and seeing this we can easily see how this is done in chapter 7 as well. As we go through this debate we will see Paul uses the same pattern elsewhere besides Romans. The pattern being,
The depravity of man,
The gospel message,
A look back to where we were,
Moving forward.
I hope to have a civil debate on the subject and perhaps learn a few things as well. All of the above is my own personal studies and as best as I can tell is not in any commentary, none that I have read anyway.
In Christ Jesus,
Dell Russell
Pontotoc, Mississippi
The foundational statement Paul makes for his argument in Romans is this statement:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Chapters 2-11 is his explanation why this statement is true. No one can understand Romans unless he understands why Paul made this statement.
Rom 7:2
Here the apostle is using a picture because of the natural limitations of his readers, (Rom 6:19). At death, the law of Sinai no longer applies; no more than every earthly law. But spiritual laws do not stop at death. An earthly law does not have dominion over the dead because the these words apply: 'He who does this will live by it'; and, when he dies, a man no longer functions in the visible world. Paul is comparing the relationship between the law and man with the marriage between a man and a woman. The law (the man) has authority, and man (the woman) has to obey. The man's death relieves the woman from the law to her husband. It was difficult to lead the Jewish Christians away from their legal way of thinking. Therefore, Paul pointedly spoke about the law losing its authority at death. Nevertheless, Paul must also show that the law of Sinai has also lost its authority over the Christian because he was crucified with Christ and has identified with Him in His death.
Rom 7:3
No earthly law applies to the dead; and marriage is an earthly matter. The law of marriage applies during the lifetime of both partners and ends when one of the spouse dies. When a dying man or woman compels his spouse to promise never to marry again, this is entirely against the intentions of the Creator. In the resurrection there will be neither male nor female. The believing partners in marriage will then be only 'brothers/sisters' in the Lord. Marriage and its blessings belong to earthly treasures and not with the treasure we are laying in heaven.
The difficulty of Paul's metaphor lies in the fact that the picture speaks of the death of the man (the law), while in reality, the woman (man), is dead to the law. The old self, however, has died with Christ on the cross, and the new man has been raised with Him in His resurrection. He now belongs to 'another' ... namely to Christ.
Romans 7:4
The law curses all who do not keep it. We were subjected to this curse with Christ on the cross. There He died an accursed death: One for all. Through our death in Him, the law has lost its authority over us. The new man who arose has nothing to do with the law of Sinai. For many Christians to accept this is just as difficult as to believe that at death the marriage between husband and wife is dissolved for ever. One won't meet his wife as marriage partner again but as a 'brother' in Christ, and the deceased man has for ever ceased to be husband or father.
In the same way the separation between a Christian and the law is absolute. As a pure virgin he will now be betrothed to Christ by the indwelling of the Spirit, (2Cor 11:2). The law of Sinai applied only to earthly life, especially to the people who were to 'keep the way of the Lord', (Gen 18:19).
However, when they were born again, the Jews to whom Paul was speaking to had been 'transferred' to the heavenly places, and thus become dead to the earthly law of Sinai. He who migrates to a new country has nothing to do with the laws of his old environment, excellent though they may have been. Henceforth the rule is: dead to sin, (Rom 6:11), and dead to the law. Both are relinquished in faith.
He who uses the name of the Lord is not allowed to have fellowship with the powers of sin any longer, but only with the Spirit of God. "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth", (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit has dominion over us; He guides us and we obey Him.
We belong to Him who was raised from the dead. We have been raised with Him. For that reason Paul writes in Colossians 3:3: "You have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God". The life of the believer has been joined into the body of Christ, which is His church.
The word 'hid' always indicates the unseen spiritual world. With its Head Jesus. the faithful church belongs to the Kingdom of God, and this Kingdom has its own laws. "In Him we live, move and have our being", (Acts 17:28). From this new unity with the Holy Spirit a glorious fruit issues forth. Namely, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. He makes us to be men of God who manifest the divine qualities of the Holy Spirit in the visible world. To this kind of man the law of Sinai has ceases to apply.
Romans 7:5,6
While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.
We observe that Paul keeps joining the Jewish Christians who were in the flesh and had lived under the law. This would not have applied to us Christians from the Gentiles if the church had not led us back into bondage to the law, be it only in part by holding up to us the law of the Ten Commandments and the necessity to observe the Sabbath.
Paul says: We were living in the flesh, but now we are doing so no more. When we were under the law, we were living in the flesh. (Rom 7:14), that is, we were under the control of the desires of the flesh: desires for wealth, honor and prestige, the lusts of the flesh, in fact, everything which is supposed to make life on earth agreeable.
As a religious man, the apostle also lived in the flesh, for he believed himself to be righteous by efforts and observance of the law, just as all Christians from the Jews once did. Now he describes the struggle this brought about in the lives of those Jews who sought to keep the law, a struggle which always finished up by bearing fruit for death. The law was intended to arouse good desires, (Ps 119:35). The powers of sin tried to arouse evil desires. In a life under the law these opposing powers were at war in the members of man. The law aroused good works and sin aroused evil deeds. When the law began exerting its influence, the powers of sin began to arouse the lusts of the flesh to produce sinful acts. The more the law said: 'Thou shalt not', the more the evil powers would exert themselves to arouse in man evil desires. If someone sought to keep the law, the evil powers did what they could to prevent him. Aroused by the powers, the lusts of the flesh would use the members to manifest sin in the visible world. The sinful act is the fruit which is borne into the world. "And sin when it is full grown brings forth death", (James 1:15).
When we live in the flesh, the law influences our natural being from the outside, for it functions from the outside. But we are discharged from the law, free from it because we are dead to the law, as we have died with Christ. We have also done away with sin.
So the struggle a law-abiding Jew faced all his life ceased to rage the moment he was born again. Formerly he was a prisoner; caught between the law and the powers of sin, he was pushed back and forth, now serving the one, the next moment the other. Now that he is free from both and accepted as a justified child of God, he can begin a new life. The Spirit of God controls and guides him inwardly, and he can yield his members to righteousness without hindrance, so long as he obeys the guidance of the Spirit.
The law of Sinai is the written code, for it was written on tables of stone and applied in the visible world. The New Covenant is the covenant of the Holy Spirit, of which Hebrews says that the law of God has been laid in the mind and written in the heart, causing it to function inwardly, in the inner man, from out of the unseen world (Kingdom of Heaven).
The Spirit works from the inside to the outside, exactly opposite to the law of Sinai law. That is why the believer is able to resist the attacks or temptations of the powers directly. The struggle now concentrates entirely in the unseen dimension of the inner man. There the powers of darkness function, and there the Holy Spirit also functions together with our spirit. There we fight the good fight of faith to serve God in uprightness of heart.
Here the apostle is using a picture because of the natural limitations of his readers, (Rom 6:19). At death, the law of Sinai no longer applies; no more than every earthly law. But spiritual laws do not stop at death. An earthly law does not have dominion over the dead because the these words apply: 'He who does this will live by it'; and, when he dies, a man no longer functions in the visible world. Paul is comparing the relationship between the law and man with the marriage between a man and a woman. The law (the man) has authority, and man (the woman) has to obey. The man's death relieves the woman from the law to her husband. It was difficult to lead the Jewish Christians away from their legal way of thinking. Therefore, Paul pointedly spoke about the law losing its authority at death. Nevertheless, Paul must also show that the law of Sinai has also lost its authority over the Christian because he was crucified with Christ and has identified with Him in His death.
Rom 7:3
No earthly law applies to the dead; and marriage is an earthly matter. The law of marriage applies during the lifetime of both partners and ends when one of the spouse dies. When a dying man or woman compels his spouse to promise never to marry again, this is entirely against the intentions of the Creator. In the resurrection there will be neither male nor female. The believing partners in marriage will then be only 'brothers/sisters' in the Lord. Marriage and its blessings belong to earthly treasures and not with the treasure we are laying in heaven.
The difficulty of Paul's metaphor lies in the fact that the picture speaks of the death of the man (the law), while in reality, the woman (man), is dead to the law. The old self, however, has died with Christ on the cross, and the new man has been raised with Him in His resurrection. He now belongs to 'another' ... namely to Christ.
Romans 7:4
The law curses all who do not keep it. We were subjected to this curse with Christ on the cross. There He died an accursed death: One for all. Through our death in Him, the law has lost its authority over us. The new man who arose has nothing to do with the law of Sinai. For many Christians to accept this is just as difficult as to believe that at death the marriage between husband and wife is dissolved for ever. One won't meet his wife as marriage partner again but as a 'brother' in Christ, and the deceased man has for ever ceased to be husband or father.
In the same way the separation between a Christian and the law is absolute. As a pure virgin he will now be betrothed to Christ by the indwelling of the Spirit, (2Cor 11:2). The law of Sinai applied only to earthly life, especially to the people who were to 'keep the way of the Lord', (Gen 18:19).
However, when they were born again, the Jews to whom Paul was speaking to had been 'transferred' to the heavenly places, and thus become dead to the earthly law of Sinai. He who migrates to a new country has nothing to do with the laws of his old environment, excellent though they may have been. Henceforth the rule is: dead to sin, (Rom 6:11), and dead to the law. Both are relinquished in faith.
He who uses the name of the Lord is not allowed to have fellowship with the powers of sin any longer, but only with the Spirit of God. "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth", (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit has dominion over us; He guides us and we obey Him.
We belong to Him who was raised from the dead. We have been raised with Him. For that reason Paul writes in Colossians 3:3: "You have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God". The life of the believer has been joined into the body of Christ, which is His church.
The word 'hid' always indicates the unseen spiritual world. With its Head Jesus. the faithful church belongs to the Kingdom of God, and this Kingdom has its own laws. "In Him we live, move and have our being", (Acts 17:28). From this new unity with the Holy Spirit a glorious fruit issues forth. Namely, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. He makes us to be men of God who manifest the divine qualities of the Holy Spirit in the visible world. To this kind of man the law of Sinai has ceases to apply.
Romans 7:5,6
While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.
We observe that Paul keeps joining the Jewish Christians who were in the flesh and had lived under the law. This would not have applied to us Christians from the Gentiles if the church had not led us back into bondage to the law, be it only in part by holding up to us the law of the Ten Commandments and the necessity to observe the Sabbath.
Paul says: We were living in the flesh, but now we are doing so no more. When we were under the law, we were living in the flesh. (Rom 7:14), that is, we were under the control of the desires of the flesh: desires for wealth, honor and prestige, the lusts of the flesh, in fact, everything which is supposed to make life on earth agreeable.
As a religious man, the apostle also lived in the flesh, for he believed himself to be righteous by efforts and observance of the law, just as all Christians from the Jews once did. Now he describes the struggle this brought about in the lives of those Jews who sought to keep the law, a struggle which always finished up by bearing fruit for death. The law was intended to arouse good desires, (Ps 119:35). The powers of sin tried to arouse evil desires. In a life under the law these opposing powers were at war in the members of man. The law aroused good works and sin aroused evil deeds. When the law began exerting its influence, the powers of sin began to arouse the lusts of the flesh to produce sinful acts. The more the law said: 'Thou shalt not', the more the evil powers would exert themselves to arouse in man evil desires. If someone sought to keep the law, the evil powers did what they could to prevent him. Aroused by the powers, the lusts of the flesh would use the members to manifest sin in the visible world. The sinful act is the fruit which is borne into the world. "And sin when it is full grown brings forth death", (James 1:15).
When we live in the flesh, the law influences our natural being from the outside, for it functions from the outside. But we are discharged from the law, free from it because we are dead to the law, as we have died with Christ. We have also done away with sin.
So the struggle a law-abiding Jew faced all his life ceased to rage the moment he was born again. Formerly he was a prisoner; caught between the law and the powers of sin, he was pushed back and forth, now serving the one, the next moment the other. Now that he is free from both and accepted as a justified child of God, he can begin a new life. The Spirit of God controls and guides him inwardly, and he can yield his members to righteousness without hindrance, so long as he obeys the guidance of the Spirit.
The law of Sinai is the written code, for it was written on tables of stone and applied in the visible world. The New Covenant is the covenant of the Holy Spirit, of which Hebrews says that the law of God has been laid in the mind and written in the heart, causing it to function inwardly, in the inner man, from out of the unseen world (Kingdom of Heaven).
The Spirit works from the inside to the outside, exactly opposite to the law of Sinai law. That is why the believer is able to resist the attacks or temptations of the powers directly. The struggle now concentrates entirely in the unseen dimension of the inner man. There the powers of darkness function, and there the Holy Spirit also functions together with our spirit. There we fight the good fight of faith to serve God in uprightness of heart.
