Salvation

[In Christ]

Williemac

it looks like hyper-Calvinisims, which states that man has no participation in his salvation and is only saved because God first chose him. Either one of these is false.

Why label others if they have a different view of Scripture from yourself? If Calvin and I happen to agree on some truths of the Bible it is only because we read the same Bible and came up with the same conclusions. We are commanded to be like minded with Christ, after all.

If you believe either one of these is false it is because you have not read John 15:16 which reads: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,..

Many do not understand Scripture because they lean to their own understanding. They read the Bible literally, like it is an ordinary book, and they study and critic it as such.

God has given all of mankind the ability to think, reason,and respond. God gives grace to the humble and resist the proud.

God did give all of mankind the ability to think, reason, and respond. After all man was created in the image of God therefore, he is not a robot. He can decide to wake up at 6:00 A.M.. what to have for breakfast, what clothes and color to wear...etc. However, man does not have the ability to respond to the Gospel because by nature he is a sinner sold to sin, and he must be drawn by the Father to Jesus.

Below is the best illustration of what salvation is like in the raising of Lazarus. I've used this illustration many, many times in the past.

The Raising of Lazarus

After telling Martha He is the resurrection and the life, Jesus arrives at the tomb of Lazarus and cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” Could Lazarus hear the command? No, he was physically dead! But Lazarus did come forth. What had to have happened? Jesus had to qualify him and reached into the tomb to give him life.

As Lazarus was physically dead so are we spiritually dead (impossible for us to understand spiritual things).

As Lazarus was physically deaf so are we spiritually deaf (our ears are dull in hearing the true Gospel).

As Lazarus was physically blind so are we spiritually blind (we cannot see the truths of the Bible).

As Lazarus was physically closed lip so are we spiritually dumb (we are incapable to speak spiritual things).

Did Lazarus make any kind of contribution to his resurrection? Did he have the ability to accept or deny Jesus from raising him up?

All the miracles performed by Jesus we read about in Scripture ware not only to show He is God, but also to show through those miracles man's condition that he is a reprobate creature.

If we do not understand and accept that we are spiritually dead, I'm afraid many of us will have a rude awakening on Judgment Day.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Calvinists pick and choose among the teachings of Calvin. They conveniently ignore the fact that John Calvin taught the truth that Mary was ever-virgin and only gave birth to one child. John Calvin really did put scripture above ideology in everything he taught.

 

[In Christ]

I've heard of Calvin but I don't know anything about what he taught. I merely stated that if Calvin (or anyone else, for that matter) and I agree on some truths it is only because we read the same Bible and come up with the same conclusions.

If anyone would like to put a label on me then you can call me a biblecist (if there is such a word, let alone how to spell it).

I believe in all 66 books of the Bible and in its entirety is the word of God. The God of the Bible is my One and only God.

 

[Sargento]

Dan...

The context around that James's verse is another verse from another book????
Nooow all is explained... so these are your contexts... you take a part of ANOTHER text and invoke it has a context to another part of ANOTHER text... well, that way we can indeed create any context we want.

James was not the only writer who encouraged good works. I invoked other verses to substantiate the same thing that James was illustrating, nothing was out of context.

No, Rahab was also NOT justified by works... yes, James is wrong here too.

Nonsense, Rahab's actions mattered.. Her works were not void of meaning.

A faith without works is fruitless?? Poor of those who have a paralyzing illness... they are fruitless and therefor cannot be justified. REALLY???

I've never stated that anyone is justified by works, but that good works inherit good rewards. Handicapped people certainly have works, their testimony alone is a demonstration of their faith.

So faith is works?
Impressive... how can anyone argue with that?

Where did I say that? I said that we demonstrate our faith by our works. Faith is simply living after that which we believe. Consider that if Noah only had faith but no works, there would be no ark; "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Hebrews 11:7)

What Jesus did was miracles with a purpose (AND SELECTIVELY, not to all and not always, but all had a purpose and it was not charity) .... is that the works you say HE preached?

No, I'm implying that preaching alone is a work... A person can have faith, but still stay home and not say a word. But being moved by faith to go out and preach is the work that brings your faith alive. That's why James said ."Faith without works is dead"

Miracles are not works!!

Really? I doubt that the blind who were made to see and the lame who were made to walk would agree with that statement.. Miracles are definitely good works.

We are obviously not on the same page. I'm only responding because I think what your propagating is a dangerous message... Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James encouraged Christians to do good works, and your saying its not important or even necessary. I completely disagree.

I never said he was the only one who encourage good works!!!

Why do you keep answering to what I'm not asking?

James is the only one that says man is justified by works... using for it even Abraham the father of FAITH who the scripture says was justified by faith and Paul says about this FAITH ONLY WITHOUT WORKS.
You don't say we are justified by works? If you don't you are against James.

Where did I say that? I said that we demonstrate our faith by our works. Faith is simply living after that which we believe. Consider that if Noah only had faith but no works, there would be no ark; "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Hebrews 11:7)

Were??? Everywhere... when you say "Faith is simply living after that which we believe" you are saying that faith is works!! Or by "living after" don't you mean works?
I know what Noah did, but even if he couldn't do it that would not be fault of faith! Faith is sustained by GOD, not works, and it's alive it self and faith give life to works, not the other way around like James says.

How can someone be moved by faith to do works to make the faith alive? What is he moved by? Dead faith?
Can't you see the ridiculous of what you're saying?



INCHRIST...

Sargento

The central message of the Bible is salvation through Jesus or the “good news.”

I thought you and I were in the same page or in one mind with one accord as Jesus wanted us to be. But apparently you do not yet understand the gist of Revelation 13:8. Don't misunderstand me. Having a wrong understanding of a scripture text does not make anyone not a child of God.

You said, “You're right about the Old Testament believers salvation, but not about Rev. 13:8

Then you agreed by saying....

“Yes, only one plan of salvation... all redeemed by Jesus' blood.”

The above statements are contradictory in terms.

If all are redeemed by the blood of Christ then so were the Old Testament believers, because Jesus IS the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. In other words, He sacrificed His life before the world was created, and that is the reason how the Old Testament believers could become saved.

Without the shedding of blood (death) there is no remission (of sin).

Then you said the death of Christ before the foundation of the world was “predesignated” that it did not happen until He was crucified.

Well, consider this...

When Jesus hung on the cross back there in 33 A.D. and He cried with a loud voice, “IT IS FINSIHED.” What was finished? The Atonement of course. But how can this be He did not die yet? This can only happen unless Jesus did truly die before the foundation of the world and that the cross was only a demonstration of “how” He did die back there before the foundation of the world.

Without Revelation 13:8 we would never have known how the Old Testament believers became saved.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamd of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

The proof?

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

What I said you're wrong about Revelation is the part that I explained, not about justification or salvation... there's no contradiction in what I said... all were saved by Jesus, but that only took place after HE died, untill that all the sons of GOD (the believers) were kept in the the bosom of Abraham.

About the (“IT IS FINSIHED.”) ... what event preceded that?

Do you need arguments that show that Jesus died only when HE came to earth?
Don't you know any verses that shows the prophecys were fulfilled when he died in the cross?

 

[In Christ]

Sargento

What I said you're wrong about Revelation is the part that I explained, not about justification or salvation... there's no contradiction in what I said... all were saved by Jesus, but that only took place after HE died, untill that all the sons of GOD (the believers) were kept in the the bosom of Abraham.

If this is true, can you tell me how Enoch, Elijah, and Moses could go to heaven, yet Jesus did not die till centuries later?

There is a principle the Bible declares that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; meaning, the souls of those who died in Christ whether in the Old or New Testaments are in heaven with God. 2 Corinthians 5:8

Your understanding of Revelation 13:8 is flawed!

I don't know if you understand Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak.
Mark Chapter 4. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning and in this sense therefore, the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation becomes a parable because the Bible is one cohesive whole.

Already in Genesis 1:2-5; we see salvation of God in the making, as we read:

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the
Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning
were the first day.

and this can be seen also in 1 Thessalonians 5:5-9:

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an
helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

About the (“IT IS FINSIHED.”) ... what event preceded that?

Which preceding event, the drinking of vinegar? Please be more specific.