Silence in Heaven

[avoice]

One of the things many of my Christian brethren miss about the events of Christ's coming is how "the day of the Lord" events occur at the same time as His coming and our gathering. That's why the "four winds" symbol is applied for both God's judgment and the gathering of Christ's saints in His Word. It all happens at the same timing. Understanding this comes from study in the OT prophets, for that's where the most detail is found about the events of the "day of the Lord". I find many lacking in that study, as it must be done slowly, line upon line.

I agree with this completely just so you know I have many years of bible study not that it means anything Ive meant many that claim that and wonder what book they have studied if you get my meaning ...

However the sealing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with the Lords day unless you conclude the lords day is before the tribulation.
It is the very thing that tells Satan/A.C. hands off mine elect so what is the point of it being about the Lords Day ....

The four winds doesnt have a single meaning reguarding the changing in the twinkling of an eye ... or the Lords Day, any more sea only means people ,it can also just be a sea of water
I understand the Lords Day fine but this isnt about the Lords day and there isnt a scripture that says it is ...

Rev 7 is two seperate visions one before the tribulation and one after the tribulation ... Your scripture is good its your timing Im questioning .... failing to seperate the 144,000 from the overcomers. and see the time seperation of the two visions has forced you to assume something not in evidence ... Hurt not the earth this has nothing to do with 1 Cor.

Suit yourself here but I have followed the scripture as they are given.
God bless

 

[avoice]

I just wanted to suggest perhaps your missing where this division of these two seprate visions is .. first One before the trubulation in which this sealing of 144,000 takes place

the second vision is seeing after the tribulation (lords day) and tells who overcame ...[sup]
[sup][/sup]9[/sup]After this I beheld ...after What ?

After the first vision the first events ....
There is a second vision
its seeing into a differnt time period ..all the rest of the scriptures on this subject of the144,000 Elect
support this view. They are set aside in many scriptures

"After this" is used in this context of a change over 5000 times in scripture.it denotes a change,in time or change in subject or context. .

 

[veteran]

I agree with this completely just so you know I have many years of bible study not that it means anything Ive meant many that claim that and wonder what book they have studied if you get my meaning ...

However the sealing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with the Lords day unless you conclude the lords day is before the tribulation.
It is the very thing that tells Satan/A.C. hands off mine elect so what is the point of it being about the Lords Day ....

The four winds doesnt have a single meaning reguarding the changing in the twinkling of an eye ... or the Lords Day, any more sea only means people ,it can also just be a sea of water
I understand the Lords Day fine but this isnt about the Lords day and there isnt a scripture that says it is ...

Rev 7 is two seperate visions one before the tribulation and one after the tribulation ... Your scripture is good its your timing Im questioning .... failing to seperate the 144,000 from the overcomers. and see the time seperation of the two visions has forced you to assume something not in evidence ... Hurt not the earth this has nothing to do with 1 Cor.

Suit yourself here but I have followed the scripture as they are given.
God bless

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

That verse is... about Christ's saints that are still alive on earth being gathered to Him at His coming. That involves the "last trump" events Paul taught of in 1 Cor.15. In contrast, the Matthew 24:31 verse is about the "four winds" gathering His saints from one end of heaven to the other. Per Ezek.37:9, the 'breath' comes from the "four winds".

The "day of the Lord" is what some of these events of the "four winds" is about. The "day of the Lord" events coincide with the time of Christ's coming to end the great tribulation upon His saints:

Jer 49:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will break the bow of Elam, the chief of their might.
36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them, even My fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:
(KJV)

Dan 11:3-4
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
(KJV)

Zech 2:4-10
4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.
9 For, behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

Dan 7:2-3
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
(KJV)

Shouldn't be confused about Rev.7:1 mentioning the earth with the "four winds" idea, for that's only pointing to the four winds being held back until it's time for them to blow upon the earth, which is a sign of God's judgment coming upon the earth, and per the prophecies, those four winds blowing coincides with Christ's coming and gathering of His elect from those four winds.

So all Rev.7:1-3 is pointing to, is that those four winds are not to blow upon the earth until God seals His elect. But when they do blow, they will bring God's judgment upon the earth.

 

[veteran]

I just wanted to suggest perhaps your missing where this division of these two seprate visions is .. first One before the trubulation in which this sealing of 144,000 takes place

the second vision is seeing after the tribulation (lords day) and tells who overcame ...[sup]
9[/sup]After this I beheld ...after What ?

After the first vision the first events ....
There is a second vision
its seeing into a differnt time period ..all the rest of the scriptures on this subject of the144,000 Elect
support this view. They are set aside in many scriptures

"After this" is used in this context of a change over 5000 times in scripture.it denotes a change,in time or change in subject or context. .

I do see them as separate visions John was given.

But Bible history prevents me from arbitrarily assigning all those 144,000 as Jews that only come to the Faith during the tribulation, which is how many men's doctrines treats those differently than the "great multitude".

Rev.9 reveals specifically what God's sealing in the last days is for; it's against the stinging (deception) that comes out of the dragon's mouth, and out of the mouths of his locust army, represented by the symbolic scorpion sting, fire and brimstone that comes out the locust's mouths.

Only those with God's sealing will overcome that stinging during the tribulation. That's why our Lord Jesus revealed in Rev.9 that the only ones subject to that stinging are those NOT sealed with God's seal. The locusts are even told that they cannot kill those not sealed with God's sealing, nor hurt any green thing, but only torment those not sealed for a period of "five months."

So does the Rev.7:9 forward Scripture show that "great multitude" overcame that through the Blood of The Lamb? Yes, simply because they are shown standing before Christ and the throne after the tribulation. That is enough to show that the "great multitude" is sealed with God's seal too, and not just the 144,000.

Concerning the identity of the 144,000, Bible history prevents us from simply assigning all those as Jews, and also as unbelievers that come to the Faith only once the tribulation has begun.

The only tribes in the 144,000 list that represent the "house of Judah" are Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The rest of those tribes of the 144,000 mainly represent scattered ten tribe Israelites of the "house of Israel". Archaeological history shows the majority of those ten tribes were scattered to the West, to Asia Minor and Europe (as Cimmerians and Scythians). They were the Caucasian peoples that migrated westward through the Caucasus Mountains near the Black Sea.

And millions upon millions of them are Christians among the Gentiles in the historical Christian nations. Twelve thousand out of each of the remnant of the "house of Israel" make up the 'majority' of that 144,000 group, 108,000 to be specific (9 x 12,000), if 144,000 is specific number. Some of them could be among the house of Judah, but not the majority of them. Whereas the Jews of the "house of Judah" make up the rest of only 36,000 (12,000 x 3 tribes). The tribe of Dan is left out of that list because of going into false worship, but in final are put back in per Ezek.48.

After the majority of Judah refused The Gospel, Christ's Apostles went to the lost sheep of the house of Israel with The Gospel, where they were scattered among the Gentiles. Many of them along with the Gentiles believed, and became Christ's Church. So ultimately, both the 144,000 and... the "great multitude" all represent Christ's sealed elect for the tribulation. What's kind of disturbing is that one would expect more of the ten tribes among the Gentiles to be sealed with God's seal. But it's becoming obvious today why so many of them won't be, because of all the doctrines of men being taught in so many Churches today.

 

[avoice]

I understand all this well
I know who Israel and Judah are and the whole story in that part we are in agreement.

Its just my understanding however you stop short ....you dont have the ending to the story, so some of your conclusions I cant agree to ... but that's another topic.

However the age of the gentile will end (Romans 11:25)
It was a mystery that is now revealed.
It always been the plan of God to receive them back in mercy: We can also see this in the symbolism of the story of Hosea wife he took a prostitute for wife but did not divorce her... God divorced Israel not Judah
I say, then, hath God cast away His people? God forbid?" (Romans 11:1)

God did not intend for the Jews to know his plan until “the fullness of the gentiles comes in.” (Romans 11:25)
and God will turn his attention back to Judah they have been under the guardianship of the Law until God does his work to them.And through this work many nations will come to Lord... But this isnt the topic to discuss/debate this. So Ill leave it for another day.

The tribulation will bring the multitudes to Sainthhood thats the hopeful picture that the second vision brings us
they are without number.
They just will not get there without the refining of the tribulation ... Just look how many are waiting to be Raptured
many of these will be saved in the end ..but they will not be sealed before the tribulation as the Elect ..Knowledge of truth is one of qulifications of the Elect ..144,000. Only the 144,000 can sing the song in Rev 14:3 Only the Elect are (spiritual virgins ..This is what sets the144,000 apart from the multitude of overcomers ...

 

[veteran]

I understand all this well
I know who Israel and Judah are and the whole story in that part we are in agreement.

Its just my understanding however you stop short ....you dont have the ending to the story, so some of your conclusions I cant agree to ... but that's another topic.

Yeah, I didn't continue about Paul's mention of all Israel being saved in final. I didn't go into that part. But I still believe he only meant those of Israel that believe, as we all must believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ to be saved.

However the age of the gentile will end (Romans 11:25)
It was a mystery that is now revealed.
It always been the plan of God to receive them back in mercy: We can also see this in the symbolism of the story of Hosea wife he took a prostitute for wife but did not divorce her... God divorced Israel not Judah
I say, then, hath God cast away His people? God forbid?" (Romans 11:1)

God did not intend for the Jews to know his plan until “the fullness of the gentiles comes in.” (Romans 11:25)
and God will turn his attention back to Judah they have been under the guardianship of the Law until God does his work to them.And through this work many nations will come to Lord... But this isnt the topic to discuss/debate this. So Ill leave it for another day.

Yep. I agree and understand that.

The tribulation will bring the multitudes to Sainthhood thats the hopeful picture that the second vision brings us
they are without number.
They just will not get there without the refining of the tribulation ... Just look how many are waiting to be Raptured
many of these will be saved in the end ..but they will not be sealed before the tribulation as the Elect ..Knowledge of truth is one of qulifications of the Elect ..144,000. Only the 144,000 can sing the song in Rev 14:3 Only the Elect are (spiritual virgins ..This is what sets the144,000 apart from the multitude of overcomers ...

Have you compared these verses?

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

Do you believe Gentiles are included within that group out of every "kindred"...? I do.

Rev 15:1-3
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
(KJV)

Notice that Rev.15 group doesn't give a specific number that sing that song.

I agree God's sealing is against deception to the false messiah. I don't believe anyone not sealed by God's will be able to get away from the sting of deception by false messiah until Christ returns. The only reason I see for the separate descriptions in Rev.7 is God pointing out His promises specifically to the 'seed' of Israel, which is only that 144,000 group.

 

[avoice]

Gentiles are included within that group out of every "kindred"
Yes I most certainly agree with this as you ....

I believe the 144,000 and the overcomers(multitudes) are two differnt groups for now .....but I dont think it always continues as such

they are both of the first resurrected and I believe this what we see in Rev 15:1-3 the joining of all the first resurrected...(Elect and Overcomers)

We have a God of grace and mercey while the overcomers are not the same as the Elect through the end of this age as they need refining ... They are with Christ and the Elect as one group by Rev 15.

If you notice the 144,000 are called servents
Its my believe God uses these servents to help bring about the gathering of the multitudes of overcomers ..for this reason they must be sealed before hand against Satan they have earned this through their faithful ways ..

Thats why there is really so few when we consider the world population
as I said in an earlier post
I consider these 144,000 in a likeness in comparison with the Apostels who only lead the way ...for the many

 

[veteran]

Gentiles are included within that group out of every "kindred"
Yes I most certainly agree with this as you ....

I believe the 144,000 and the overcomers(multitudes) are two differnt groups for now .....but I dont think it always continues as such

they are both of the first resurrected and I believe this what we see in Rev 15:1-3 the joining of all the first resurrected...(Elect and Overcomers)

We have a God of grace and mercey while the overcomers are not the same as the Elect through the end of this age as they need refining ... They are with Christ and the Elect as one group by Rev 15.

If you notice the 144,000 are called servents
Its my believe God uses these servents to help bring about the gathering of the multitudes of overcomers ..for this reason they must be sealed before hand against Satan they have earned this through their faithful ways ..

Thats why there is really so few when we consider the world population
as I said in an earlier post
I consider these 144,000 in a likeness in comparison with the Apostels who only lead the way ...for the many

I understand what you're saying, like the two groups of John 17. I see them both as being sealed by God's sealing for the end though. And I see both groups coming under the same tribulations as a whole. Note our Lord said in John 17:21 that both were to become 'one' in Him.

 

[tgwprophet]

1,000 years is equal to a day... 24 hours... when I divide 1000 by 24 i come up with 41.66... Now. for every hour we spend... 41.66 years transpire in heaven. "money is made useless in an hour" --- so money is made useless in 41.66... days? or ten months... or in an hour - our time? Seems much more likely that in just over a month money is made useless than ten months.
Consider the time span of 10 months of preparation people will have verses 41 days. Consider that if money was actually made useless in an hour - our time - people woud still consider money valuable once a fix is made and therefore money would not be made useless all the same. So how was 5 months arrived as a time span?

Let us consider that something - lets say a meteor is about to strike the earth... and it is so big everyone knows all life will cease. This could make money useless really quick. People would be trying to buy whatever they thought they could use to survive. And people would not be selling anything they thought they cou;d use to survive. The anti-christ then would only need to know how to send up Bruce Willis to drill a hole...lol

There is silence in heaven for 1/2 hour... 20.83.. days? yet you came up with 5 months? I am confused, addled, mixed up.
As for the rapture, how long does it take an eye to twinkle in heaven?

In my limited reasonig I came up with the space of 1/2 hour treanspiring between the time Satan is cast unto the earth and the rapture with the death of he two witnesses and their ascention to heaven taking place somewhere in between. Part of my reasoning for this placement is in consideration of Daniel 12:12.
The economic collapse that renders money useless, I suspect will be brought on by the anti-christ who will have already formed a repair before he initiates that collapse. With none knowing it was he that made the collapse - he will present the repair, thus making himself an instant hero. Because he made the collapse at his convience, he will be able to produce the fix before anyone else can present a vialbe idea or solution.

 

[tgwprophet]

" In my limited reasonig I came up with the space of 1/2 hour treanspiring between the time Satan is cast unto the earth and the rapture with the death of he two witnesses and their ascention to heaven taking place somewhere in between. "

Golly... my bad this is what I get for being up so late and being in severe chronic pain. I plumb fergot 'bout the reason for the silence being the sealing of the 144,000. However, I will need to recheck the time increment to be sure it is an error.