Sin And Sickness

[religusnut]

Greetings folks this is my first post here.

I was invited here and have been hunting a forum similar to what this one appears for a good while.

I like to learn and teach the Bible regularly.

This is a topic many times that is hotly debated in many circles.

It is interesting to note there there was sickness in this world before sin entered in and there will be no sickness in this world after Jesus returns. With that said there is much evidence that the two run hand in hand together.

 

[Templar81]

I'm stuck at home with the flu at the moment and I wonder if it migth be some kind of punnishment or just part and parcel of living ina fallen world where you have to take the rough with the smoothe.

I'm a bit confused though about your post. What sickness was there before the fall of man? Are you refering to a certain archangel going off the rails, if so that was a result of free will.

 

[rcbako]

All I know is that sickness is one result of the fall of man even Adam and Eve. When they were cast out from the garden of Eden, they were physically separated from God. Thus, they are prone to committing sin. As mortals they will suffer sickness of all kind. Sin and sickness are both effect of physical separation from God.

 

[religusnut]

I'm stuck at home with the flu at the moment and I wonder if it migth be some kind of punnishment or just part and parcel of living ina fallen world where you have to take the rough with the smoothe.

I'm a bit confused though about your post. What sickness was there before the fall of man? Are you refering to a certain archangel going off the rails, if so that was a result of free will.

There was no flu, cancer, high blood pressure, or what ever disease you might name before sin entered the world.

I don't imagine that your flu is a direct punishment either.

If sin has anything to do with it in all probability stress issues might be the cause of a weak immune system....... which in turn might add to the disease example possibly even the flu. Most stress relate back to things like not trusting God. Is that not sin?

 

[Templar81]

I don't necesserily thinmk I'm being punnished but I did take Communion on Sunday, which brings up two possibilities.

1. We all share the same chalice as Canon law prevents us from using the little egg cups that some other churches use. This means that if someone befor eyou has a cold, flu or another infection someone else who recieves communion after them could get it.

I've discussed this with people who say the chances of infection are rare because the chalice is lined with silver and the wine is alcoholic. This is supposed to kill of virusess.

2. In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul tells us that the people of Corinth took Communion improperly nad that is why some are ill and some sleep (meaning dead). I amde a thourough confession before taking the sacreament and was very very sorry for my sins so it probably isn't that unless as I mentioned in a previous thread I missed something out and I have been given the flu as a punnishment.

Overall though I'd stick witht he idea that we live in a fallen world and this side of Heaven we have to just accept these things and do the best we can.

P.S. I would very much like to discuss 1 Corinthians 11 and to know other's thoughts on it.

 

[religusnut]

All I know is that sickness is one result of the fall of man even Adam and Eve. When they were cast out from the garden of Eden, they were physically separated from God. Thus, they are prone to committing sin. As mortals they will suffer sickness of all kind. Sin and sickness are both effect of physical separation from God.

Exactly. Most times however when people associate sickness and sin in the same category immediately they get intimidated. Truth is all sickness is the result of sin. NOT NECESSARILY THE SIN OF THE SICK PERSON. First we are sick becasue of Adam's sin. The sins of others, and of course our sin as well.

 

[Templar81]

Yes but I want to know about 1 Corinthians 11 does it means a peson who recieves the communion improperly is physically punnished?

If you don't feel that this passage has any bearing on the topic then I might start a new thread on it.

 

[religusnut]

Yes but I want to know about 1 Corinthians 11 does it means a peson who recieves the communion improperly is physically punnished?

If you don't feel that this passage has any bearing on the topic then I might start a new thread on it.

With all due respect on this topic I teach on the correlations of the two all of the time but that is not one that I have dug deeply into. I know that there are people that teach if one is sick that they should take communion daily. I even know of a woman that was in danger of losing her child in about the 6th month of pregnancy and she started taking communion daily and immediately her pregnancy started shifting back towards normal and she delivered a healthy full term baby.

I would even venture so far as to say that taking it unworthily is sin and therefore it is yet another example of sickness and sin being in correlation.

I would think that instead of taking it incorrectly as in wrong manner in say the mechanics of what one is doing that instead it would be with sin in ones life that was not confessed or repented of....

 

[Rach1370]

I must say, its refreshing to see a post about sickness and sin, that does not blame the sick person for being unwell.
I have had a chronic illness for about 15 years, and as hard as it has been I can honestly say that it has brought me closer to God, that I have learned to trust Him, love Him and draw my comfort and joy in Him.
I think so many people think that Christians should be free of pain, suffering and heartache, but in truth this is not so. As you said, this is a fallen world and everyone must live in it, even Christians. The only time these things will cease is when Jesus comes again to make all things new! We should long for this day...I know I do!!
Rach

 

[pgfinest2002]

Hey all (hey Nut!). Good topic going here.

As for I Corinthians 11:27-32, I'd like to see what people think of it as well.

It does sound like Paul is saying there was a link between some Christians in Corinth being sick and their taking of theLord's Supper:

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. [sup]28[/sup]A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. [sup]29[/sup]For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. [sup]30[/sup]That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. [sup]31[/sup]But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. [sup]32[/sup]When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.


I don't think, based on this passage and some others (esp. I John 5:16), that it is totally out of the question that sickness ,disease and even death can befall a Christian due to sin.

I John 5:16:
[sup]16[/sup]If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.


What do you all think?

 

[religusnut]

Hey all (hey Nut!). Good topic going here.

As for I Corinthians 11:27-32, I'd like to see what people think of it as well.

It does sound like Paul is saying there was a link between some Christians in Corinth being sick and their taking of theLord's Supper:

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. [sup]28[/sup]A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. [sup]29[/sup]For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. [sup]30[/sup]That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. [sup]31[/sup]But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. [sup]32[/sup]When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.


I don't think, based on this passage and some others (esp. I John 5:16), that it is totally out of the question that sickness ,disease and even death can befall a Christian due to sin.

I John 5:16:
[sup]16[/sup]If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.


What do you all think?

I spent two weeks in Anchorage, Ak last May in class with a ministry called Wellspring. It was the most intriguing two weeks I ever spent and I have been in a pastor for 12 years and studied with a lot of well known people in classes and seminars.

The very first day there we had a nurse teach a class called Anatomy, Stress, and Physiology. She took you back to the cellular level and told you why stress made you sick. We then learned what sin is and is not. then we learned what discernment is. Then we learned about accusing spirits. After that we learned Bitterness and Self bitterness. Then rejection, jealousy and envy, and then fear, and occultism.

It is incredible what these things cause in our lives and yes they are all sin. Even receiving rejection because it turns into idolatry. Anyway ALL sickness goes back to those things and the devil is a master at using them to destroy us.

We learned to work from what they taught as a sin based theology and when you find sin instead of bringing yourself under condemnation to shout hallelujah because you had found a problem... It is amazing how many people I have been able to help since May and how many people that I know that went there have as well. Yes they tie all sickness back to sin.

 

[religusnut]

I must say, its refreshing to see a post about sickness and sin, that does not blame the sick person for being unwell.
I have had a chronic illness for about 15 years, and as hard as it has been I can honestly say that it has brought me closer to God, that I have learned to trust Him, love Him and draw my comfort and joy in Him.
I think so many people think that Christians should be free of pain, suffering and heartache, but in truth this is not so. As you said, this is a fallen world and everyone must live in it, even Christians. The only time these things will cease is when Jesus comes again to make all things new! We should long for this day...I know I do!!
Rach

Rach
I teach pretty much all of the time on this subject. I do a seminar called Finding Freedom which is normally a 4 day affair. In this teaching we talk a lot about how anxieties, fears, and worries, cause us to be sick. I started doing these seminars in June and have done three teachings so far. Just from those three seminars I have seen several people overcome some illnesses. One of which was a lady that had severe migraine headache problems. She was on meds to prevent migraines and still had problems with them. Since June she has taken no meds and had no migraine problems.

I know of a group in Alaska that teaches by the methodologies I was taught to use and they do counseling which I am working to get proficient at and see 70%+ of the people they work with healed of almost all known diseases. It is not a magic bullet and it is not some mumbo jumbo shell game though. it takes study focus and prayer to allow the Holy Spirit to change a person from the inside out.

I currently teach this material in a drug rehab one day each week and have seen some interesting results there as well.

Sickness and sin do indeed run hand in hand but the problem for so long in helping people deal with it has been that people were brought under so much condemnation when the two were tied together that it was hard to help them because of the shame attributed to it.

 

[Tzara]

Yes but I want to know about 1 Corinthians 11 does it means a peson who recieves the communion improperly is physically punnished?

If you don't feel that this passage has any bearing on the topic then I might start a new thread on it.

I believe the answer to this question lies in verses 20-22. It seems people were showing up for the sacred observance of the Lord's supper as if if were some fellowship covered-dish supper at their church instead of a sacred commemoration, eating their fill and some drinking the wine until they were drunk, not leaving enough for the others.

And clearly the observance was in commemoration of his death and to drink the cup of the new testament of His shed blood for the remission of sins.

 

[[email protected]]

I'm stuck at home with the flu at the moment and I wonder if it migth be some kind of punnishment or just part and parcel of living ina fallen world where you have to take the rough with the smoothe.

I'm a bit confused though about your post. What sickness was there before the fall of man? Are you refering to a certain archangel going off the rails, if so that was a result of free will.

I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering a bout with the flu.
Fortunately medications are available to help you feel a bit more comfortable during your convalescence.
There are no medications, however, for foolishness that is rampant in the world today.

If you are wondering whether or not you are suffering some judgment from God, use this simple rule.

The judgments of God are generally permanent and/or VERY expensive in terms of resources and time.

Using the Old Testament as a guide, we can observe that when God judged Adam & Eve by evicting them from the garden IT WAS PERMANENT.
When God judged the world in the days of Noah IT WAS PERMANENT.
When God judged Egypt in the days of Moses IT WAS PERMANENT.
When God judge Israel and split the kingdom in two, IT WAS PERMANENT.
When God judged the world and put its sins upon the shoulders of Jesus Christ IT WAS PERMANENT.

These are but a few examples off the top of my head.

Other judgments are limited in time, but suffer extreme loss in terms of time and/or resources.

When God judged the Hebrews because of their lack of faith, they wandered in the desert for 40 years instead of 2.
When God judged Samson for betraying his holy trust, his strength was taken for a time. Ultimately it was restored at the cost of his vision and his life.
When God judged the kingdom of Judah, they were evicted from their land and taken into Babylon for 70 years. They were allowed to return, but only after suffering many things there.
When Jonah ran from the call of God he was cast into the belly of a great fish for several days. He was restored to normalcy only after he repented.
When the Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ of God, they were banished from their land and treated horribly for two thousand years. They have returned and the curse is now being gradually lifted but only after a terrible cost.

Does this make your flu feel a little better?
God does not hate you, but if you do not repent of your sins something worse may befall you.

Going back to review the rule;
The judgments of God are generally permanent and/or VERY expensive in terms of resources and time.

We see by this that events such as Hurricane Katrina, the forest fires of California and even the HIV virus are NOT judgments of God.

The lack of wisdom and utter foolishness we see in America today ARE a judgment from God.
Why? Because we have not sought the Kingdom of God with all our hearts and minds and souls.

American foolishness at every level will destroy our nation as we have known it.
The trend will not be reversed until we have paid the full penalty and have repented AS A NATION.

 

[religusnut]

I must say, its refreshing to see a post about sickness and sin, that does not blame the sick person for being unwell.
I have had a chronic illness for about 15 years, and as hard as it has been I can honestly say that it has brought me closer to God, that I have learned to trust Him, love Him and draw my comfort and joy in Him.
I think so many people think that Christians should be free of pain, suffering and heartache, but in truth this is not so. As you said, this is a fallen world and everyone must live in it, even Christians. The only time these things will cease is when Jesus comes again to make all things new! We should long for this day...I know I do!!
Rach

We have found that extremely large numbers of illnesses even chronic ones can successfully be healed without medication through a person working through their issues of the past concerning things that have caused them bitterness or self bitterness. This bitterness can come from things like rejection, jealousy & envy, fear, or occultism.

Even studies of epigenetics now teach that your DNA that you pass on to the next generation can be changed by changing your patterns of thinking. Interesting study.

This is the types of things that we discuss in seminars I do called Finding Freedom.