Sinless Perfection?

[mark s]

Yet you stand firmly behind a daily...sin repent sin repent sin repent? .

No . . . I stand firmly behind . . . whenever you may be walking according to the flesh, STOP! And return to walking in the Spirit.

But we do not repeat this over and over born again, die again, born again, die again, born again, die again . . . and on, and on . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rach,

As I've read this page, although there is much I could comment on, one thing has stood out (from your posts).

A stray thought

The thoughts we have? ......... I struggle with my thoughts...unkind thoughts, spiteful thoughts. I don't set out to think or do these things, but they are there; and while I am aware of them and genuinely want rid of them, I just keep falling on my face.

I don't believe these 'thoughts' are from you (or your new heart). And I believe you should stop taking ownership of them, while at the same time asking the Lord to bring to your attention any blindspots or issues which have made you vulnerable to attitudes which accommodate such thoughts.

 

[mark s]

What I've found on this topic is the idea of someone reaching a point where they do not commit a sin in their life, scares the heck anyone who still sins so they have to react defensively.

Seriously?! If someone disagrees with you, it's because their just having an emotional reaction??

So I guess you won't even consider that someone may be basing their views from Scripture. Or will you?

people ask, "who have you met that is sinless"? Well, probably more than I've met that raised from the dead after three days.... what's the point of that?

I've only come accross one person up to now who has actually claimed to be sinless, though I've witnessed their sin.

Do you claim to be sinless?

People imply there are two natures that battle inside of them, sinful nature and Christ's Spirit, except scripture says point blank that position is a farce. See Romans 8:9.

Galatians 5 says that the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and that these two are in conflict, so that you cannot do what you want.

If these are not the two natures at the same time within us, what is this about?

If the spirit that the flesh lusts against is not the new creation, then why would it be contrary to the flesh? If you are not born again, the flesh is unopposed.

If this flesh is not the old nature, why does it lust against the new spirit?

This is only one verse of many that demonstrate there are indeed two natures within us who are born again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This whole notion that we "mature" into sinlessness is directly contrary to the notion that we are only born again when we are not sinning.

Think about it.

Sinless = born again means that sinning = not born again, and if you are not born again, how can you possibly be "maturing" to sinlessness?

One idea allows no tolerance for sin, the other idea acknowledges sin.

Kind of reminds me of quantum physics . . . the measurement problem. Is it a particle? Or is it a wave?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Rach,

As I've read this page, although there is much I could comment on, one thing has stood out (from your posts).





I don't believe these 'thoughts' are from you (or your new heart). And I believe you should stop taking ownership of them, while at the same time asking the Lord to bring to your attention any blindspots or issues which have made you vulnerable to attitudes which accommodate such thoughts.

Hi dragonfly,

Are you suggesting these thought originate from the old nature, or from an entirely external source?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Mark,

To your question above, definitely not the old nature. Entirely external sources are possible, but there are other possibilities too. The important thing is to be open to the Lord shining a light wherever He needs to, if there are unresolved issues from our pasts (I'm being deliberately vague because there are so many factors which may or may not seem significant, and could be different from person to person.) which may be lending a foothold to the enemy. Some people need to go through a process to deal with what the Lord revealed, and others simply need to name and reject the thing, dealing with it quite quickly. Whatever the Spirit has registered in the understanding, is a matter for prayer (whatever kind of prayer is relevant).

Now to your other point. I went to look up Gal 5, because I wonder whether it is being correctly understood. The following is for you to consider.

Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The first question I want answered from a born again person is, what are the things you 'would' be doing?



Now, think about this question, please. Was Jesus victorious over sin at Calvary or was He not?



Now, another question -



When He was raised from the dead did God prove once and for all that the power of His Life and resurrection is greater than death, or lesser?



Now, another question:



If you (Mark) believe Romans 6:6, and you have entered into Romans 6:3 by faith, did you die in Christ, or are you still alive in your sin?



This matters because Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.



Have you been freed from sin through being grafted into Christ's death? Romans 6:4, 5.



Okay. Back to your point about Galatians 5:17c '...so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.' How likely is it that when Paul said in Galatians 5:16, that if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfil the lust of the flesh, that by the time he finishes the next sentence he is also saying that even if we walk in the Spirit, we will not be able to cease from sin? Surely that is a crazy interpretation if we believe Christ's life overcame sin and death?



So what I'm suggesting is, that v 17 is a re-enforcement of v 16, not a statement in opposition to it. In other words, the things which we 'would' - the fulfilling of the flesh - Paul is saying: the Spirit lusting against them is stronger, not weaker, as long as we have set ourselves to walk in the Spirit.

It is something to do with heart attitude - single heartedness for the Lord's glory; single mindedness in the pursuit of righteousness; all of which should have been set in place when we truly repented of sin (singular ie the Sin) and turned away from it in principle.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 1 John 1:7

 

[mark s]

Hi Mark,

To your question above, definitely not the old nature. Entirely external sources are possible, but there are other possibilities too.

Hi dragonfly,

What are those other possibilities?

If not the old nature, and if not an external source, then what is left? Only the new nature. And how could that be?

Why does Paul tell us to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ?

If Christ is in you, why do you have thoughts that need captivating? Unless there remains the old nature vying for power?

The important thing is to be open to the Lord shining a light wherever He needs to, if there are unresolved issues from our pasts (I'm being deliberately vague because there are so many factors which may or may not seem significant, and could be different from person to person.) which may be lending a foothold to the enemy. Some people need to go through a process to deal with what the Lord revealed, and others simply need to name and reject the thing, dealing with it quite quickly. Whatever the Spirit has registered in the understanding, is a matter for prayer (whatever kind of prayer is relevant).

If there remains no old nature, what do "issues from the past" have to do with anything?

Sounds to me that while you reject the idea of the old nature being present, yet you acknowledge those things that arise from it. If not the old nature, then from where? The new nature?

Now to your other point. I went to look up Gal 5, because I wonder whether it is being correctly understood. The following is for you to consider.

Galatians 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The first question I want answered from a born again person is, what are the things you 'would' be doing?

Not so fast, my friend!

Why concern yourself with what I want to do? First let's answer . . . what does the passage say?

Is there a "flesh" that lusts against the spirit? In this passage, there is.

Of course we desire, and pursue righteousness, and of course Jesus conquered the power of sin in our lives. Of course we are no longer slaves to sin.

But do you commit sins? And if you do, does this mean you are not born again?

Now . . . to what I want to do . . . first answer, is he writing to a believer, or an unbeliever?

If writing to a believer, why would he be suggesting that what we want is to sin?

Don't you want to not sin?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Xian Pugilist]

No I didn't miss the point. I added some colossians 2 flavor to it. Which is talking about people naming other's sins and enforcing sins like don't say this, don't eat/drink that, don't touch this.... blah blah blah which miss the point of the Gospel.

you said>>>>>>Now, if you want to get picky....sure...maybe (and that's a really big maybe) you could argue that if 2 people sleep together they are 'married' in God's eyes, but I think that's a seriously faulty premise<<<<<<<<<<<<

No, that is how Christ defined it to the woman at the well. Once they have joined they are one flesh is how the OT pictured it as well as the Jewish tradition etc... I just offered some Biblical concepts to help broaden your view and pull more Bible into it. Sorry.

you said>>>>>>> But fine, say you want to argue that...how many people today do you know of, who don't get married, but then go on to be faithful to the single person for the remainder of their days?<<<<<<<<<<<

Irrelevant, has nothing to do with what is a sin or not.

you said.....If you want to point me towards Col 2 to try and take away scriptural basis for the marriage covenant that God himself instituted and Jesus and Paul reiterated...go ahead, but your missing the mark by quite a distance<<<<<<

That wasn't the point of col 2. Perhaps you should have read and pondered the point. Or not. I didn't mean to stir so much headache. sorry.

you said>>>>>>>>>
Peas and carrots. I'm not mixing them up, they go together if a Christian is genuine. Anyone can admit that they've done something wrong, even unsaved people. They might even say 'sorry'...but confession means nothing unless it comes hand in hand with biblical repentance.<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well 1 john 1:8-10 disagrees but clearly that doesn't matter to you. So I'm not sure how to behave here. Confession isn't repentance. They are totally different things. You confess until you have repented. After you have repented you'll never make that confession again because you'll never cross that line again.

Really? Wow...that means you're perfect? I wonder if the people in your life think that?

I never said I was perfect. Are you always going to ignore the point and try to make it personal? How "christian" of you? Whether I am or not is irrelevant. I've never raised from the three day death either, and I will still teach resurrection. Is that a problem for you?

you said>>>>>>>>>>Riiight. So, that's why Paul and the other authors of the NT spend so much time telling us to repent if and when we sin, move forward towards Christ, grow away from our old selves. It would also explain how Peter and Barnabas were found in sin by Paul (in Galatians), and how Paul himself claims to still sin:<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Paul said he was perfect too Rach. Phil 3. Why do you ignore the parts you don't like? That thing that he struggled with, apparently in romans 7 that makes him do what he doesn't want to do blah blah..... he said he no longer had it, flesh, in 7:5. You have some dilemmas to work through.

you said>>>>>>>>b]For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Romans 7:15-18 ESV)[/b]
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Romans 7:5

English Standard Version (ESV)

[sup]5 [/sup]For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.


So, which is it, does Paul have flesh or not have flesh. Within 20 verses of each other, two paragraphs he's said both.

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. (1 Timothy 1:15 ESV)

Yes, Paul committed sins in his life. He is a sinner. That doesn't say he is still sinning. :|

You are a sinner the moment you commit a sin and will always be, but those sins are forgiven, and yet you are still a sinner.

Note the present tense....not "did not" or "dwelt" or "had" or "was"....but "do not", "dwells", "have" and "am". Paul is talking about himself in the present, when he had the Holy Spirit residing within and guiding him.

Show me where Paul says he still sinned and we have a chat. He said he was perfect in Phil 3. Now, what perfect means (has nothing to do directly with sinning) is something else you'd have to study to understand.

It's fairly simple. Sin=death. Death will be triumphed over for good...we will be given sinless forms. Not in this life, the next, where death is no longer present.

That is no where in scripture. It doesn't exist. My claims exist in scripture. It's not a reflection on my beliefs that you haven't the scriptural backing for your claim.

Let me know if you want my address for that gift card.

Sure, when you earn it I'll send it. Heck I may send it anyway via the book you should read. :)

Actually yes, anger is a sin.

Wow, we have no savior, Christ was angry. We are all screwed.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. (Matthew 5:21-22 ESV)

Christ thrashed people out of anger, he cursed them out of anger. He killed a tree out of anger. You have conflicts you need to reconcile there.

I agree that God comes to us first, calls us to him and changes us with regeneration. He continues with us...the author and perfecter of our faith. But the process of sanctification is one where we work in conjunction with the Spirit.

Yes, as Moses parting the red sea. It's called Synergism.

I'm sorry...is English a second language, because honestly, I didn't understand most of that. I'm gathering that you feel I was accusing someone and wasn't 'discussing' it properly. Let me just recap what I was responding to...

I'll work harder, sorry. My English is probably worse than yours, so when you read what I write, big surprise parts may not make sense.

Mark s said on the 25 August, in post number 180:


On the 25 Aug, post number 181, Epi responded:


I replied with my opinion (which is allowed here) and what I believe the bible says about it. I did not quote scripture as my time this morning was short.
I also pointed out the sheer absurdity in the idea that a 'Christian' is saved, then is not, then is saved again, then is not, for the remainder of their life. If, as you say and I agree with, God comes to man and saves him, then to go along with Epi, we would have to say that he then leaves us, comes back, leaves us and comes back. And we'd better hope that he's with us on the occasion we die.
Epi has also said on another occsaion that to be 'completely in Christ' we must be perfect, but that we cannot be perfect 'until we are in Christ'. It's the same contradiction as here. That we are dead (biblically that means we are incapable of seeking God and spiritual things) and yet we manage to come alive (perfect somehow while dead....only to die when we are alive (perfect)...which is ridiculous because by definition if one is perfect they cannot make the sort of mistake that landing oneself back in death would be. So Epi is either talking about a completely unsound pricipal and thought, or he believes that God does indeed save, then unsave, then save people, again and again during their lives. That would mean that God was as capricious as the wind, while we know from the bible that he is constant and dependable.
So, perhaps you feel I'm out of line, but if one cannot call out false ideas that deviate from biblical truth in regards to Gods nature and salvation, then we should just ignore scripture all together.

Your claim to believe what scripture says should read I believe what I claim scripture says. I merely showed you some places your take on it wasn't complete.



I don't care to lambast you. It's not my job to change your views. I presented things to get you thinking. We aren't thinking here just defending, so I failed. Sorry to have upset you.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Mark,

If Christ is in you, why do you have thoughts that need captivating?

According to Paul, it is the 'I' in us, which identifies the old nature. That is a spiritual force. The previously inevitable victory in fallen man, of that spiritual force, was broken by Jesus Christ on the cross. Then He cried, 'It is finished!' When I received His death as my own, I received that victory over that spiritual force, and by the Holy Spirit I walk in it and my mind is bring renewed in the manner Paul describes in Romans 12:1, 2. This is where the captivation of thoughts, the bringing of old strongholds under the power of the cross, deals with the conditioning we received when the power of sin was working in us, and we were obeying it like every other unsaved person. Eph 2:3 Although the axe has been laid to the root of the tree (of good and evil) in us, through receiving Christ's death, it withers only slowly as we starve, strangle and ignore the way it used to lean.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

No . . . I stand firmly behind . . . whenever you may be walking according to the flesh, STOP! And return to walking in the Spirit.

Errr. you don't have both to walk to in the body at one time. That's a whole different conversation, but Romans 8:5 to 8:9 make it very clear. The FLESH IS GONE if the Spirit of God indwells you. It's not my words...

But we do not repeat this over and over born again, die again, born again, die again, born again, die again . . . and on, and on . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

Think about it, if you ever once walked by the Spirit, and gal 5:16 is true, then you wouldn't give into temptation. HOW would you STOP walking by the Spirit except to be tempted, which He won't let you give into? It's one or the other. You don't have a flesh and Spirit of God inside you at the same time.

It's no longer me who lives but HE who lives in me.
Col 2:11 is gone,
Romans 8:9 resides in you.


Mark, this is pretty disappointing.

Seriously?! If someone disagrees with you, it's because their just having an emotional reaction??

No, I am in groups that disagree with me all the time with no emotions. Someone is having an emotional reaction when they have an emotional reaction. Disagreement has nothing to do with defining an emotional reaction. I don't collect strawmen, can we lose them here?

So I guess you won't even consider that someone may be basing their views from Scripture. Or will you?

You can let your emotions change your interpretation of scripture. Just because you quote scripture doesn't mean it's the correct conclusion. If it did, you'd read 1 john 3:9/5:18 and just stop the conversation here, wouldn't you?

I've only come accross one person up to now who has actually claimed to be sinless, though I've witnessed their sin.

Do you claim to be sinless?

Nope, how many people have you met that were raised from 3 days in the grave?

Galatians 5 says that the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and that these two are in conflict, so that you cannot do what you want.

Well, the Spirit leads you from the outside before it indwells you. Gal 5:18 the Greek word AGO translated as led has the picture of a person leading a horse by tethers. An atheist being led to God is called before God indwells them. So I'm very comfortable with that verse and it fits perfectly into my theology.

If these are not the two natures at the same time within us, what is this about?

If the spirit that the flesh lusts against is not the new creation, then why would it be contrary to the flesh? If you are not born again, the flesh is unopposed.

If you are born again, the old is gone, GONE GONE GONE not there, removed bya circumcision, those things don't grow back, it's not like a wart. Col 2:11.
You enter a walk with Christ with atonement. You fight with Obedience. You receive a benefit, the benefit leads you to sanctification. Rom 6:22. Atonement is saved, but still in the flesh. Through a process of growth, running the race, the flesh is eventually removed by HIM not you, and at that point the Spirit of God indwells you. That's what scripture says, what is the problem with that other than you never heard it read so bluntly before?

If this flesh is not the old nature, why does it lust against the new spirit?

This is only one verse of many that demonstrate there are indeed two natures within us who are born again.

Until you show what romans 8:9 DOES MEAN within your argument, you have merely managed to contradict it. What does the verse say. How can it mean other than what it says.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This whole notion that we "mature" into sinlessness is directly contrary to the notion that we are only born again when we are not sinning.

I have no clue where this come from. Sinning has nothing to do with IF you are born again or not. AGAPAO is the determinant for that claim. HOWEVER if you are born again, you won't be sinning. :) That will be a whole other thread, but I'll take that debate with anyone but Nomad's pedanticness.

YOU>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Think about it.
Sinless = born again means that sinning = not born again, and if you are not born again, how can you possibly be "maturing" to sinlessness?
One idea allows no tolerance for sin, the other idea acknowledges sin.
Kind of reminds me of quantum physics . . . the measurement problem. Is it a particle? Or is it a wave?<<<<<<<<<<<


Kinda reminds me of my friend that said they didn't steal the ball they were just borrowing it... they didn't have an answer for what was happening either so they tried to dance around it.


If you want to get into "what is born again" I'll be glad to. That should be it's own thread. Just let me know.

You run on a lot of presumptions though. Can we stick to exegetics?



YOU >>>>>>You are not Jesus

You are not the judge,you are spreading lies...are you perfect ? i bet you sinned either in thought,word or deed this very day.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I gave you analysis of John's epistle. If you disagree great. Show me my error, don't cry like a petulant child and call me a liar.

I don't have to be perfect, nor sinless to understand the scripture. My life doesn't prove the BIBLE it proves my life.

 

[us2are1]

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.






.

 

[mark s]

Hi Mark,



According to Paul, it is the 'I' in us, which identifies the old nature. That is a spiritual force. The previously inevitable victory in fallen man, of that spiritual force, was broken by Jesus Christ on the cross. Then He cried, 'It is finished!' When I received His death as my own, I received that victory over that spiritual force, and by the Holy Spirit I walk in it and my mind is bring renewed in the manner Paul describes in Romans 12:1, 2. This is where the captivation of thoughts, the bringing of old strongholds under the power of the cross, deals with the conditioning we received when the power of sin was working in us, and we were obeying it like every other unsaved person. Eph 2:3 Although the axe has been laid to the root of the tree (of good and evil) in us, through receiving Christ's death, it withers only slowly as we starve, strangle and ignore the way it used to lean.

hi dragonfly,

This is a pretty good summation of my ideas too. Cool!

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Hi Mark,
According to Paul, it is the 'I' in us, which identifies the old nature. That is a spiritual force. The previously inevitable victory in fallen man, of that spiritual force, was broken by Jesus Christ on the cross. Then He cried, 'It is finished!' When I received His death as my own, I received that victory over that spiritual force, and by the Holy Spirit I walk in it and my mind is bring renewed in the manner Paul describes in Romans 12:1, 2. This is where the captivation of thoughts, the bringing of old strongholds under the power of the cross, deals with the conditioning we received when the power of sin was working in us, and we were obeying it like every other unsaved person. Eph 2:3 Although the axe has been laid to the root of the tree (of good and evil) in us, through receiving Christ's death, it withers only slowly as we starve, strangle and ignore the way it used to lean.

Old nature......

Romans 7:5
English Standard Version (ESV)

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

This old nature, the flesh, is something PAUL says he was no longer in. Now most teach Paul was complaining about this sinful nature in him at the end of romans 7, but you have to figure out a way to reconcile those verses together. It will fit together if you are tenacious in your studies. Most folks just ignore 7:5 to make it say what they want it to say.


Colossians 2:11

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[sup]11 [/sup]and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

The body of the flesh, is that flesh you see above in romans 7:5. You'll notice, it's not MAN who conquers it but Christ. So people that look at this challenge of not sinning and are daunted realizing the impossibility of it, that's ok, it is impossible for man, but through God all things are possible. And it's BY GOD and THROUGH GOD that it is removed. Do you find God incapable, or unwanting to keep His canonical word?



[sup]9 [/sup]However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.NASB

And nearly every person I have ever met in this chat claims they are indwelled by the Spirit but still in the flesh. This verse couldn't read any plainer.



Galatians 2:20

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[sup]20 [/sup]I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and [sup][a][/sup]the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Your summary here, there is a part of ME what lives all through this verse.
There is a part of me that dies.
There is a HE that resides.

SOMA/BODY, myself lives.

SARX/Flesh/Sinful Nature is removed by circumcision,

Spirit of GOd, HE resides in me.

This is born again, I'm not alive under control of the sinful nature anymore, but the Spirit of God took his/its role in my life. The SpIRIT of God keeps me from sinning, gal 5:16,
His seed keeps me from sinning 1 john 3:9,
HIM in me keeps me from sinning 1 john 5:18

Do you see a theme?

It's ok to admit you can't do it. It's not ok to have no faith that HE can do it in you though.

More importantly, SIN isn't the real focus. It's the results of a fulfilled focus.

Xian maturity/perfection is found in 1 john 4:16-18. It's love, not avoiding sin.

Imagine a person who was born but never sinned in their life. If they didn't have the love right in the 1 j 4 vss they still aren't going to heaven.

So the race paul says to run is to learn to love as God does, (as christ commanded in matt 5:48).

The result of getting there, is that you will no longer sin. Because HIM in you won't let you do it.

The fear that "I STILL SIN" so they teach I'm not saved..... is imagined. You are saved at atonement. IF you really accept atonement and run the race, you don't need to know IF or IF NOT you are there to maturity, just let God do what GOD will do. BUT KEEP RUNNING THE RACE. However, keep your eyes on the prize, LOVE, not looking in the gutter at sin.

It's not about you.

If you think it's something you have to do, then I have to ask, do you even believe in a GOD that can do things to you in this life? Because scripture says HE does it, not you. If you can't accept that, perhaps you really aren't sure IF there is a God, other than proclaiming it with your mouth.....

 

[us2are1]

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on toperfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

yes S.o.M. that's one of several verses talking of perfected Xians.

 

[aspen]

I have a chronic illness that I have to manage everyday - if I do not eat correctly or exercise, I will have flare ups and over time it takes a toll on my life by shortening it. Also, no matter what I do to manage it, it will eventually end my life early. Sin is similar. We are all going to die from the consequences of the Fall - the question is; are we going to die in communion in Christ, resting in His forgiveness or not? Can we manage our sin with Christ's help - yes. Can we learn how to love other instead of misusing love / pridefulness? Yes! However, we will never shake this dogged desire to try and make it through this life without surrendering to Christ every minute of every hour. So instead of denying, running from, feeling terrible shame about or sin; I think we need to use it as a gauge or red flag in order to determine the quality of our relationship with God at the moment and then, thank God for His love and forgiveness and pray for the strengthen to love Him and our neighbors better. If sin is used like pain - as a warning or signal, it will point us towards God rather than away from Him.

 

[mark s]

Paul says of the sin, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that lives in me".

Some very important points to understand:

"No longer" signifies a change. Once it was him who committed the sins, but it is no longer him now. Something significant has changed, and while "he" sins, it's not actually him sinning. Paul - and those who are born again - has been recreated, and is now a new person, though the old person, the sinner, remains.

And Paul repeats this. lest we misunderstand.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Xian Pugilist]

I have a chronic illness that I have to manage everyday - if I do not eat correctly or exercise, I will have flare ups and over time it takes a toll on my life by shortening it. Also, no matter what I do to manage it, it will eventually end my life early. Sin is similar. We are all going to die from the consequences of the Fall - the question is; are we going to die in communion in Christ, resting in His forgiveness or not? Can we manage our sin with Christ's help - yes. Can we learn how to love other instead of misusing love / pridefulness? Yes! However, we will never shake this dogged desire to try and make it through this life without surrendering to Christ every minute of every hour. So instead of denying, running from, feeling terrible shame about or sin; I think we need to use it as a gauge or red flag in order to determine the quality of our relationship with God at the moment and then, thank God for His love and forgiveness and pray for the strengthen to love Him and our neighbors better. If sin is used like pain - as a warning or signal, it will point us towards God rather than away from Him.

Even though we most likely don't agree on the details here.... I agree and would say all the same things you just said.

I'd add, if you have accepted Grace, then you really don't care if you sin or not, you are more focused on running the race to HIM, and just accept he's forgiven us.

If you are more focused on controlling your sins, you aren't looking forward where you run, but behind you and you'll get lost. Not only that it tends to breed a heart of what can I get away with, what's allowable, not how much more like HIM can I be.

Paul says of the sin, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that lives in me".

Some very important points to understand:

"No longer" signifies a change. Once it was him who committed the sins, but it is no longer him now. Something significant has changed, and while "he" sins, it's not actually him sinning. Paul - and those who are born again - has been recreated, and is now a new person, though the old person, the sinner, remains.

And Paul repeats this. lest we misunderstand.

Love in Christ,
Mark

In this passage, he's discussing and names that sin living in Him as the flesh.

The same flesh he's not in any longer in 7:5.

May I suggest you read about "historical present tense".

When Paul says I ME MY MINE etc.... in the Historical present tense it's not necessarily referencing himself.

That's the only way this chapter makes sense without contradictions.

The HPT is where the speaker assumes the role of a character or people from history. And he tells the tale as if he were one of them. So, if I were telling the story of the battle at the pass of thermopylae, I may speak as if I were Leonidas himself.

You see politicians do that all the time today. Picture Al Gore, in a black congregation church, speaking and using personal pronouns. He'd talk about OUR challenges, and OUR struggles, and what I do when I struggle is look for help, and blah blah blah... Would we assume that would make Al Gore a Black Man? Nope. We'd understand. HOWEVER if someone read the transcript and didn't know Al Gore was white, they may assume he was a black man.

I'd contend that Paul spoke for the jewish people. When he said, "I was alive apart from the law, and when it came I died", I'd argue that Paul never died before writing Romans 7. :) (that's the humor part...)

There was no law that came after Paul's birth but the laws of Christ, love God/neighbor. THEY brought life not death. Paul wrote the laws that brought death were the laws given to Levi and his brood to manage in other places. So we know it's Levitical laws he's discussing here, it's the same conversation.

Some argue that Paul wasn't under the law until his bar mitzvah. Except, from the time of his first breath, he was under the law. That's when his first breath started, thus his life started, thus the clock for the eighth day when he was snipped.

So, Paul discussed how the law brought death, and that sinful nature that resulted from the law. He showed how it makes us struggle with it, but before that chat he showed you that he's not there anymore. That's when in Romans 8:5-9 he's discussing you are one mindset or the other and you obey the one you belong to (belong being a possessive word). And he verifies it with, if you are indwelled by the Spirit you aren't in the flesh anymore, to prove that it's a one or the other thing.

Not a both.

 

[us2are1]

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:1,2

 

[Strat]

He never claimed to be. Your passive suggestive insult is noted though.....



Whether he sinned or not is irrelevant to what scripture says. I bet he didn't raise from a three day death today either, and I'm not going to fault him for believing in Resurrection. But apparently you will.

YOu have snot, but not reason. Please reconsider your approaches.



If you slept with them, you ARE married to them. There is no sin there, until you sleep with another. You lack a formality, not a marriage. Col 2 would be a good read about those making up rules rather than the substance of what was taught.

Before repentance you have confession. You describe confession above and mention repentance here... why are you mixing the two and interchanging them as if they were synonyms?




If you repented, you never commit that sin again. If you repented from sins, you never sin again.



Paul said himself and others were. He taught different things to the perfect believers, and he wrote that he was to present those people to Christ at his return as perfect, and that was apparently when they thought to see His return in their lives. For you to come down so hard on someone, it would be less distracting if your claims held up to scripture.



THAT IS NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE. I will buy you an amazon gift card fo r20 bucks if you can find it.



Most of those things wouldn't be sins. Anger isn't a sin. Not going to church isn't a sin. Sin is not the purpose of Christ. He came for much more than salvation. His arrival wasn't only about sins. The GOSPEL does not deal with sin but with love. I would REALLY encourage you to study more and listen less to those teaching this stuff.... it's shallow and disruptive to scripture's claims.



YOu don't do repent, HE repents you. HE does the changing not you. HOWEVER it's done through what you do. Who parted the red sea, God or Moses. But MOSES did all the work, held the stick, etc...



This is NOT the words to say someone else isn't biblical.

Perhaps if there was less accusing and more discussing this would go along better.

I'm seeing and mostly getting NOT DISCUSSIONS but people trying to tell the world HOW IT IS BY GAWD! Can we stop that and stick to the arguments and make positions you support with context and scripture? Rather than make "NU UHS!" but never back them up?

Jokes on you buddy,i'm not perfect and your response to me shows that you are not either and have just as far to go as anyone else does in emptying yourself of yourself

I have read some incredible things since coming here,but here we have people actually claiming to be perfect and sinless...amazing and only possible on the internet where wild claims can be made and never have to be verified.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Jokes on you buddy,i'm not perfect and your response to me shows that you are not either and have just as far to go as anyone else does in emptying yourself of yourself

I have read some incredible things since coming here,but here we have people actually claiming to be perfect and sinless...amazing and only possible on the internet where wild claims can be made and never have to be verified.

I have never tried to discuss with someone who had as much of a disconnect from the discussion as this one has been.

I never said you nor I were perfect.

I certainly don't care what you think of me.

If you think ANYONE on earth could verify if you are perfect or not, you are delirious. You have no reason to discuss with me any more. Not until you have proof of ability. That's the one thing missing from this chat so far.

 

[Strat]

I have never tried to discuss with someone who had as much of a disconnect from the discussion as this one has been.

I never said you nor I were perfect.

I certainly don't care what you think of me.

If you think ANYONE on earth could verify if you are perfect or not, you are delirious. You have no reason to discuss with me any more. Not until you have proof of ability. That's the one thing missing from this chat so far.

There is nothing to discuss,perfection in the flesh is a lie created by liars,told by liars and believed by liars