Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation

[St. SteVen]

Well, what is there to remember SS?
You've really never explained this.

LOL
How many times have I "never" explained this?

Do you believe everyone gets into heaven or not?
Asked you at least twice now.

Gets into heaven? Do you mean without judgement?
I have NEVER claimed that.

After judgement (evaluation/rewards/correction/restoration), yes; then everyone.
Sound familiar?

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
You told me originally that the NT says NOTHING about Universalism. - LOL
Now you criticize me for liking what I found? Get real.

Why do I have to accept your verses while you reject mine?
That saw should cut both ways.

Because YOU are not correctly exegeting the verses.
You are paying any attention to context.
You are against what Christianity teaches.
Universalism is a heresy......not in line with Christian teachings.

Which of these reasons explain why UR is wrong?

What makes a doctrine false?
Please quote what you would like to respond to. Thanks.
1. You've never heard it before. (knee-jerk defensive response)
2. You have heard of it before, but assume it's false. (haven't looked into it)
3. Doesn't align with your church's doctrine (your church would say it is false)
4. Doesn't align with your personal doctrine (your views differ)
5. YOUR "Bible" says it is false. (other biblical opinions don't matter)
6. It makes you uncomfortable. (therefore it must be wrong)
7. Everyone knows it's false. (except those who believe it)

What makes a doctrine false?

What makes a doctrine false? Please quote what you would like to respond to. Thanks. 1. You've never heard it before. (knee-jerk defensive response) 2. You have heard of it before, but assume it's false. (haven't looked into it) 3. Doesn't align with your church's doctrine (your church...

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

Post some writings of the early church Fathers.

I really don't care what Herzog wrote in 1908.

You claimed that Universalism from the 1800s.
I seem to have debunked that handily.
Quotes are in the topic.

Apokatastasis in the early church

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

1. In post no. 141 you stated this:
"It seems that the more I explain, the less you understand."

My reply was:
You could say you don't agree with me but you cannot say I don't understand your position.

I can say whatever I want about your obvious failure to understand.
I'll let the readers decide.

2. So,,,I am not claiming that you do not have a defendable position...
I'M STATING that you do not have a defendable position.

Universalism is nowhere to be found in scripture.
Only judgment and what happens if a person dies under the wrath of God.

LOL
So, claiming and stating are two different things? It's impossible to reason with you.

You say "Universalism is nowhere to be found in scripture."
But I gave you more scripture than you could possibly respond to.
What's wrong with this picture? - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

Last question....
WHY are you so afraid of God's wrath?

That's a loaded question.
It assumes that there is a wrath of God to be afraid of.

You have bought into a fear tactic of the church.

If there is a wrath of God, you should be very afraid?
Do you believe in OSAS?

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Apparently, you don't know what a caveat is.

That's very insulting SS.
How low do you want to go??

I posted verses that PROVE beyond any doubt that there are CAVEATS to Jesus having died for all...
there are CONDITIONS.

I think this will be it for tonight.

And find out what Caveat means.

I told you that the verse in question did not include that caveat that you claimed.
Your response was to post other verses that you thought disagreed.
Those are NOT a caveat in the verse in question.

Your behavior is completely unreasonable.

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[St. SteVen]

I CAN'T SIT HERE ALL DAY reply to your verses.

It should be easy, since you claim there aren't any. - LOL

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[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Apparently, you don't know what a caveat is.

That's very insulting SS.
How low do you want to go??

I explained why.

And find out what Caveat means.

So, it's insulting if I do it, but not if you do it?
Even though I didn't do it.

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[GodsGrace]

Yes.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours
but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son
to be the Savior of the world.

Did Jesus fail at his mission?

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SS
I can't keep this up.
Sorry.
I've made my position clear.
It is what the NT teaches.

Asking if Jesus failed is SO intellectually dishonest of you.


Plus,,,it's pizza night here in Italy!

Maybe you should start a thread on what it means that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world??

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
Apparently, you don't know what a caveat is.

I explained why.


So, it's insulting if I do it, but not if you do it?
Even though I didn't do it.

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Well, apparently YOU don't know what a caveat is or you wouldn't be telling ME that I don't know what a caveat is.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL
How many times have I "never" explained this?


Gets into heaven? Do you mean without judgement?
I have NEVER claimed that.

After judgement (evaluation/rewards/correction/restoration), yes; then everyone.
Sound familiar?

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END RESULT:

EVERYONE GETS INTO HEAVEN.

 

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
Apparently, you don't know what a caveat is.

I told you that the verse in question did not include that caveat that you claimed.
Your response was to post other verses that you thought disagreed.
Those are NOT a caveat in the verse in question.

Your behavior is completely unreasonable.

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You posted a verse.
You said there's no caveat in that verse.

Well......there are plenty of verses throughout the NT that are CAVEATS to the verse you posted.

You're being picky.
Go have a nice slice of pizza and be happy.

 

[St. SteVen]

You posted a verse.
You said there's no caveat in that verse.

Which was true.
But you claimed there was.
Which was not true.
So you went elsewhere to dig something up.

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[St. SteVen]

Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation​

The consequences. ???
- If you refuse the "Free Gift" of salvation
- If you walk away from the church
- If you question the church
- If you are not "faithful" until the end (whatever that means)

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[Bruce-Leiter]

Spiritual Extortion - The threat of consequence for refusing the "Free Gift" of salvation​

The consequences. ???
- If you refuse the "Free Gift" of salvation
- If you walk away from the church
- If you question the church
- If you are not "faithful" until the end (whatever that means)

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@St. SteVen, why do you use such a negative word "extortion" for the consequence of refusing the free gift of salvation. Who nowadays "threatens" such a consequence for such refusal? Why are you so angry at the "church"? How has the "church" hurt you? Please answer one or all my questions.

In my experiences with more than 15 churches, I have never heard such a "threat." I submit that you have set up a false problem that will only generate conflict. What are you really asking? Is it that the church become more sensitive? That the church water down the truth? It is made up of fallible, broken people. Should we expect anything else than imperfection?

Sure, a couple of those churches that I served hurt me deeply, but I look forward to the final judgment, when they will answer for it. I suggest that you might do the same and forgive them, as I have. Just a suggestion.

 

[marks]

I submit that you have set up a false problem that will only generate conflict.

I see this generally in his threads.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen, why do you use such a negative word "extortion" for the consequence of refusing the free gift of salvation. Who nowadays "threatens" such a consequence for such refusal? Why are you so angry at the "church"? How has the "church" hurt you? Please answer one or all my questions.

In my experiences with more than 15 churches, I have never heard such a "threat." I submit that you have set up a false problem that will only generate conflict. What are you really asking? Is it that the church become more sensitive? That the church water down the truth? It is made up of fallible, broken people. Should we expect anything else than imperfection?

Sure, a couple of those churches that I served hurt me deeply, but I look forward to the final judgment, when they will answer for it. I suggest that you might do the same and forgive them, as I have. Just a suggestion.

These are good questions, thanks.
Let me simplify my view for you.

Believer = Heaven
Unbeliever = Hell

The extortion is in this believe or burn position.
Is that really a choice?

I don't harbor any bitterness toward the church.
I am sharing my observations relative to the sad state of things.

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