split from "Feamle Pastors" was he always the Son or did he become the Son on our behalf ?

[Angelina]

While Jesus was on earth, he was subject to the Father because he came down as the Son. This is to fulfill the plan that God had for mankind. The question is...was he always the Son or did he become the Son on our behalf ;)

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 1
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

...but I digress, perhaps this is better discussed as a separate topic... :unsure: my apologies to the O/P


Blessings!!!

 

[lforrest]

God is eternal, with time having no effect on him. That said, it’s my opinion that Jesus’ position within the trinity has never changed. Yet he is a man, and so had to be born. But that was done at a time and place of their choosing.

Could it be that Jesus was eternal from the moment he was born, how else can you explain the transfiguration? Also consider how he was able to see Nathaniel under the fig tree, it’s as though he were in two places at the same time. John 1:48-50

 

[Robertson]

He is the Firstborn. Of all of the Father's children, he was the first. We came after. All came after him. So, literally he is a son of God, an offspring of the Father, just as we all are. He tells Mary that he will go to his Father and our Father, his God and our God. If his father is our father, that makes us all siblings and thus all sons and daughters of god, or as Paul calls it, offspring. In this sense, he has always been a son of God, just as we have always been.

In the sense of him being the chosen one, the anointed one, the Messiah, the Christ, or the Son of God... or more appropriately, the Only Begotten Son of God, this is a role that he was chosen to fulfill from before the earth was fully created, or from the foundation of the earth. He was chosen for this role by the Father because others were not up to the task. Such beings as Lucifer and those that followed Lucifer decided they couldn't handle it and rebelled.

I like John 1, because it shows that God was there in the beginning (of the Earth) and so was Jesus who had been chosen to be the Savior. They were both there together. This is why the Genesis version of the creation includes the "US".

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

He is the Firstborn. Of all of the Father's children, he was the first. We came after. All came after him. So, literally he is a son of God, an offspring of the Father, just as we all are. He tells Mary that he will go to his Father and our Father, his God and our God. If his father is our father, that makes us all siblings and thus all sons and daughters of god, or as Paul calls it, offspring. In this sense, he has always been a son of God, just as we have always been.

i would differ with you on a couple of things (splitting hairs)

Yes ... we are "children of God"
Yes we are "One with Christ"
Yes God is "our father in Heaven"

But only Jesus can claim to be God's Son (Only begotten Son)
Jesus referred to God as ... "My Daddy"

We cannot be sons the same way ... we have earthly fathers
God is our heavenly father (plural) (collectively)
Jesus did not have an earthly father in order to be conceived.

We are not sons of God in the same way Jesus is Son of God.

 

[day]

i would differ with you on a couple of things (splitting hairs)

Yes ... we are "children of God"
Yes we are "One with Christ"
Yes God is "our father in Heaven"

But only Jesus can claim to be God's Son (Only begotten Son)
Jesus referred to God as ... "My Daddy"

We cannot be sons the same way ... we have earthly fathers
God is our heavenly father (plural) (collectively)
Jesus did not have an earthly father in order to be conceived.

We are not sons of God in the same way Jesus is Son of God.

Agreed, we are not sons and daughters of God the same way that Jesus is. "In the beginning was the Word" of the same substance as the Father. "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us". We, on the other hand, are created in God's image. We are his children in the sense that his character will eventually become part of our being, but we will never share in his substance.

The question of when the "Word" became "Son" has been a point of uncertainty since the beginnings of the Church and the concept of the Trinity.
Psalm 45:1 is often used to explain the generation of the Word: "My heart has uttered a good word" but this only works in some translations. The ESV translates it as "My heart overflows with a pleasing theme". This shows the problem of building a doctrine on a single verse or turn of phrase. The text implies an intellectual "begetting" which would make the Word "Son" from the very beginning. Irenaeus writing around 180 AD gave an explanation I find helpful. "For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously He made all things." It seems that Word and Wisdom was what was in the beginning, Son and Spirit is relational to us. So I would answer your question by saying the Word became Son when the Word became Jesus

 

[Selene]

The Nicene Creed, which was created in the fourth century mentions that Jesus is the "eternal begotten" Son of the Father. God acts in three distinct Persons, though He is one unique and singular whole. This is the mystery of the Trinity. As the Son of God, Jesus takes part fully in this divine and hidden life of God. But we also know that God is not given to change or alteration; He is perfect in His nature. God is as He is throughout and apart from time. He is eternally the Father, eternally the Son, and eternally the Holy Spirit.

But we also see something else in God. He is not just one God in three divine Persons. These Persons also exist in relation to one another. In attempting to express this relationship of Father to Son within God we say that the Son is "begotten" of the Father. This is the way that Scripture refers to this divine relationship (see John 1:14-18 and John 3:16-18 as examples). When did this take place? Before creation, since, as John notes, the world was made through the Word (the Son). Such an "action" on the part of God takes place outside of His Creation, outside of time itself. It is not an "event" closed by time, but a way of being within God Himself. That is why we say that the Son is "eternally begotten" of the Father in the Nicene Creed.

As for the Incarnation, it should be noted that Jesus was both the "Son of God" and the "Son of Man." John puts it very simply: "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that is His as the only begotten Son of the Father" (John 1:14). To fulfill God’s purpose of salvation for all mankind, the Son freely chose to become human.

 

[Robertson]

It sort of is splitting hairs! :) But the concept is true. As far as the Only Begotten of the Father - meaning when Jesus was literally born onto the Earth - that will only be him, not us. He alone carries that role.

The Lord tells Job about when the morning stars and all the sons of God shouted for joy at the foundation of the earth (Job 38). Who are these sons of God, why we are. We were joyous about coming to Earth. Again, Paul tells us that we are the offspring of God, which again would have to be before we came to earth, since on earth we are not offspring of god, we are created by our earthly parents.

Day - be careful with adding your own words to the scripture. I notice you start to quote "In the beginning was the Word" but then you add your own words... or maybe the words of a creed where in you say - of the same substance as the Father. No where in scripture does it say Jesus is the same substance as the Father, because that really doesn't make sense. I believe that comes from the 3rd and 4th century creeds that did away with the biblical doctrine of the Godhead and turned it into the incomprehensible doctrine of a trinity.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I often wonder why the Son of God always referred to himself as Son of Man
Never could figure that one out

 

[7angels]

is 9:6 tells us that Jesus is a Father to us. and yet in the whole new testament there is not one thing that calls Jesus Father. but Jesus it referred to as a Son over 400 times. why is this? could it be that Jesus came to show us how a Son is to act? because once we are saved we become sons of God also. as God the Father was Jesus' example to follow we have Jesus to be our example on how a son is to act. in other words Jesus is our father and we are the sons and sons imitate their father.

God bless

 

[day]

Day - be careful with adding your own words to the scripture. I notice you start to quote "In the beginning was the Word" but then you add your own words... or maybe the words of a creed where in you say - of the same substance as the Father. No where in scripture does it say Jesus is the same substance as the Father, because that really doesn't make sense. I believe that comes from the 3rd and 4th century creeds that did away with the biblical doctrine of the Godhead and turned it into the incomprehensible doctrine of a trinity.

"of the same substance" is from the Nicene Creed.but I was not trying to insert it as part of the Scripture quote, that is why it is outside the quote marks.

I am interested in your use of Godhead and Trinity as two separate ideas, I have always understood the terms to be interchangeable. Can you explain?

 

[Robertson]

I often wonder why the Son of God always referred to himself as Son of Man
Never could figure that one out

While some may teach that Jesus' Father is a spirit essence that floats around through space, or is some sort of spiritual mist, etc, that simply is not true.
We are created in the image of God, which is the human image, the mankind image. We weren't created in the image of a dog, or a whale, or the trees, or a rock--- you get the point. We were created in the image of God, which is the image of a man. What does Jesus look like? He is a man. The human form and not anything else.
Now please don't confuse human form, or image of a man, as meaning sinful or being wicked, etc. Jesus lived here as a human, in the form of a man, after the image of His Father, and He was without sin. He died, was resurrected, and returned in what form? That's right, the form of a man. Having eyes, ears, hair, feet, hands, arms, and everything that a man has. He talked, He walked, He ate, etc. When He returns to cleanse the earth, can you guess what He will look like? Yep, a man!

So, the question is, what does His Father look like? His Father and our Father, His God and our God. Our God looks like we do, a man. We were created in His image, in His likeness, and we can be saved and glorified to go live with Him. If His Son, Jesus Christ, came to visit you, He would appear to you as a glorified man. You could hug him, bathe his feet with your tears, and feel the prints in his hands and feet. And since Jesus is just like His Father, if the Father decided to come visit you, well, you could hug him and kiss him as well. This is why Jesus is called the Son of Man, because He is the Son of the Eternal Man, our Father. This is what the Bible teaches. Where the confusion comes in with most Christians is trying to reconcile the man-made doctrine of the trinity with what the Bible really teaches about the nature of God.

This is why most people don't understand the trinity, they say it has to be taken on faith because we mere mortals cant understand such concepts. This is because the doctrine is false. If we are to be like God, to be perfected in Christ, then we need to know the nature of God and know what we are trying to be like.

John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
We must know them to be like them. We must know what they are and who they are and how they behave. Then we must emulate them. To have eternal life, we must understand and be like them. We can be like our Father because we are created in His image, just as Jesus is like His Father. Amen.