Superstition within Christian culture

[aspen]

1. Demonizing internal struggles - contrary to popular belief, Your False Self made you do it, not Satan. We need to stop Hiding and Blaming the Serpent for our own sin.

2. Praying and worshipping God harder is not going to make you healthy, materially wealthy, or more intelligent.

3. Blaming persecution from the world does not mean you are a stellar Christian - you may be a maladjusted jerk.

4. The Bible is not your teddy bear or transitional object or your idol. It will not talk back to you as you spent countless hours memorizing it and cuddling it

5. Morality is is not a fruit of the spirit.

6. Faith is not magic or confined to Christianity.

7. The Tree Of The Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a magic tree - it was a fool's bet and did not teach us a thing except that we are suckers.

8. God's Will for you life is the same thing for everyone - learning to love God and neighbor - everything else in life is simply opportunity to live it.

9. The Bible is humanities' view of God as He was revealing Himself to us. Inspired does not mean supernatural.

There is far too much magically thinking and wish fulfillment within Christian culture and it is a damn waste of time. Pipe dreams impede sanctification - we need to spend as much time practicing loving as possible in this short time.

 

[bibleknowledge]

Great points to serve as eye-opener to most Chistians who are somehow confined to their own beliefs regarding faith, religion, and Christian practices. While it is true that memorizing the Bible is not a prerequisite to become a true Christian, reding the Bible does help in strengthening our faith to God. The Bible, having been recognized as a colection of books containing God's words, is pivotal and instrumental in letting a Christian know what God wants us to do.

 

[HammerStone]

I don't know that I fully agree with #1. In the context of always blaming someone else, I would agree with it, but I tend to see the opposite. I am not alone in that sentiment, as Roger Olsen also posted an article about Satan in contemporary Christianity. I suppose you could say some ultra-fundamentalist circles may practice this, but again I don't see such blaming much outside of some posting on the internet forums.

#2 I agree with when it comes to the prosperity gospel - but I would contend, and studies have shown, that worship does improve the mind, mood and can arguably influence your outlook on life. I think the Orthodox line of thinking is much the same. I think we, as created imago Dei, do derive benefits from worship, but not at all in the many notions of a prosperity-type improvement.

#3 Inclined to agree. I see a lot of being called a name or experiencing resistance as persecution.

#4 You mean there is no osmosis when I sleep with it under my pillow?

#5 Have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible does create a moral fabric for agreement and functioning of society, otherwise God would have never laid it down to Israel as the law. In fact, that is the first use of the law in Protestant Land. The problem comes when morality is put forth as the primary fruit.

#9 Disagree totally. Protestants read the Bible sacramentally. The mere reading of the book itself is not supernatural as a spell or charm might be, but then we also do not believe in a dead word, either. Don't neglect that the Bible itself centers around a supernatural gospel.

I think you're on to some things, but I think you also have to qualify them a bit.

 

[Episkopos]

While I am not in the least bit superstitious I think it is bad luck to talk about it!

 

[aspen]

thanks for the comments. yes all my points need to be added to in discussion - just wanted to get people talking.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

1. Demonizing internal struggles - contrary to popular belief, Your False Self made you do it, not Satan. We need to stop Hiding and Blaming the Serpent for our own sin.

2. Praying and worshipping God harder is not going to make you healthy, materially wealthy, or more intelligent.

3. Blaming persecution from the world does not mean you are a stellar Christian - you may be a maladjusted jerk.

4. The Bible is not your teddy bear or transitional object or your idol. It will not talk back to you as you spent countless hours memorizing it and cuddling it

5. Morality is is not a fruit of the spirit.

6. Faith is not magic or confined to Christianity.

7. The Tree Of The Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a magic tree - it was a fool's bet and did not teach us a thing except that we are suckers.

8. God's Will for you life is the same thing for everyone - learning to love God and neighbor - everything else in life is simply opportunity to live it.

9. The Bible is humanities' view of God as He was revealing Himself to us. Inspired does not mean supernatural.

There is far too much magically thinking and wish fulfillment within Christian culture and it is a damn waste of time. Pipe dreams impede sanctification - we need to spend as much time practicing loving as possible in this short time.

The bible is God's view of humanity and a little disclosure of himself & his relationship with his creaton. Although it emcompases much more than that but is centered around these facts. Secondly, inspired here does mean supernatural. (depending on your understanding of inspired)



2 Timothy 3:16-17
Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)


[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]All Scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correcting, for training in righteousness, [SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]so that the man of God may be proficient, fully equipped for every good work.

 

[Just here]

#1 - Satan does tempt, so do our minds, a good thing to remember in these instances is He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world.

#2 - The Bible does tell us He rewards those who seek Him, the word diligent keeps coming to mind, and "strive to enter His rest".

#3 - Or the world just hates Christians - you will be hated for my sake, for they hated me first.

#4 - The Bible is God's Word, the Holy Spirit DOES teach us through it. There is more wisdom in the Bible than any other book - or man - in the entire world.

#5 - The Fruit of the Spirit is from God, morality is a guideline men developed.

#6 - We can have faith of man in anything - but the only people who have the faith OF Christ are Christians.

#10 - I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this one, do you mean a Christian's life is not supernatural? I tend to believe it is. Can you explain your reasoning. Thanks.

While I am not in the least bit superstitious I think it is bad luck to talk about it!

I see we have a resident comedian.

 

[AndyBern]

#1 - Satan tempts, yes. But we're the ones who decide to obey. Satan doesn't force us to sin (unless we willingly gave him that power). He is concerned with our wills and hearts more than the actions.

 

[aspen]

Great points to serve as eye-opener to most Chistians who are somehow confined to their own beliefs regarding faith, religion, and Christian practices. While it is true that memorizing the Bible is not a prerequisite to become a true Christian, reding the Bible does help in strengthening our faith to God. The Bible, having been recognized as a colection of books containing God's words, is pivotal and instrumental in letting a Christian know what God wants us to do.

Thanks! Yes the Bible is very important for instructing us and giving us examples of those who God had a special relationship who came before us.

 

[Angelina]

...sad!

 

[aspen]

I don't know that I fully agree with #1. In the context of always blaming someone else, I would agree with it, but I tend to see the opposite. I am not alone in that sentiment, as Roger Olsen also posted an article about Satan in contemporary Christianity. I suppose you could say some ultra-fundamentalist circles may practice this, but again I don't see such blaming much outside of some posting on the internet forums.

Gosh, I hear this one quite often. Bad choices or flat out sinful behavior is credited to the Devil or demons. I think it is talked about the most in Pentecostal circles, however it also takes a more subtle form in the weird and totally twisted way we are often taught to think of the devil as the number one enemy of God and our personal savior of the damned. I see it in people's mind sets - they give the devil or demons god-like attributes like reading minds or having a personal stake in our salvation. Of course I can see Satan as antisocial, homocidal, and as the ultimate anarchist, but as far as we are concerned, he could careless. I really see him as a good example of what I never want to become or imitate. He will spend eternity as a god of one - the ultimate rugged individualist - tortured by his existential loneliness made fully present.

#2 I agree with when it comes to the prosperity gospel - but I would contend, and studies have shown, that worship does improve the mind, mood and can arguably influence your outlook on life. I think the Orthodox line of thinking is much the same. I think we, as created imago Dei, do derive benefits from worship, but not at all in the many notions of a prosperity-type improvement.

I have also read several studies on the effects of contemplative prayer on monks and meditation on the brain. I agree it is helpful. I also believe that prayer and worship and adoration are great ways to practice our sanctification that The Holy Spirit is teaching us when it comes to loving God. In addition, living out our faith by loving our neighbor through active service fulfills the second part of the Christian daily journey towards full sanctification.

In #2 I was mainly speaking about the prosperity gospel movement, which sets Christians up to believe that they either have a special relationship with God if they are healthy or rich or have not pleased Him if bad things happen in their lives. Even people outside the formal prosperity movement in Protestantism or the works only mindset in Catholicism can harbor these fears.

IMO, God is only concerned with our redemption because He knows once we are operating correctly, as we were created we will be fulfilled in every way possible. Therefore I think it is superstitious to pray outside of God's will and then attribute life's circumstances to our feelings and beliefs regarding the quality of our relationship with God.

#5 Have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible does create a moral fabric for agreement and functioning of society, otherwise God would have never laid it down to Israel as the law. In fact, that is the first use of the law in Protestant Land. The problem comes when morality is put forth as the primary fruit.

I agree that all moral behavior comes from God. Behavior apart from God is self serving. However, I believe all moral behavior flows from loving God and neighbor, which is why moral codes can vary by culture. I believe the moral code in the Bible always teaches us to be selfless, unfortunately the examples of people's morality in the Bible is far from perfect; thankfully, it also gives us great pictures of humanity struggling to understand that all God wants is for us to love outwardly.

#9 Disagree totally. Protestants read the Bible sacramentally. The mere reading of the book itself is not supernatural as a spell or charm might be, but then we also do not believe in a dead word, either. Don't neglect that the Bible itself centers around a supernatural gospel.

I am not sure I was clear on #9. I agree with everything in your response, but I do not think it addresses what I was trying say. I certainly believe that the Bible speaks to us about a supernatural God and it is inspired by Him. I also believe it instructs us about the truth of our condition and gives us the truth about returning into a redemptive relationship with God.

All I was saying is that it was inspired by God, but written by humans - we say this a lot, but never really think about what it means. Here is a comparison - let's say that we trying to understand Plato's philosophy by piecing together the notes from his students who for the sake of the example were unable to make any errors. Even without errors in the message, the texts would contain partial understanding based on the intellect of the writers - the experience of the writers - even the cultural background of the writers. God chose to use imperfect people to get His message out to the word - it may not contain error, but it certainly - I have not doubt that it was written by human beings and from their perspective, which was limited. I think it is good - it would be inaccessible if it was from God's perspective.

The superstitious piece is when some Christians believe that every syllable is without error or a limited understanding of the author - that in fact, God possessed the authors and wrote every letter. That the very wording of the Bible is Holy. I believe the word in action is Holy - which is why Jesus is truly God's Word.

The bible is God's view of humanity and a little disclosure of himself & his relationship with his creaton. Although it emcompases much more than that but is centered around these facts. Secondly, inspired here does mean supernatural. (depending on your understanding of inspired)



2 Timothy 3:16-17
Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)


16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correcting, for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be proficient, fully equipped for every good work.

I agree it is God's view of humanities' relationship with Him and our current condition and a plan of redemption, but it is written from a human perspective and includes an emerging understanding of how we are supposed to respond towards Him.

...sad!

Really? How so?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I agree it is God's view of humanities' relationship with Him and our current condition and a plan of redemption, but it is written from a human perspective and includes an emerging understanding of how we are supposed to respond towards Him.

Care to elaborate on the blue underlined writing? Try to be concrete in your argument.

 

[Angelina]

just is...

 

[HammerStone]

I agree that all moral behavior comes from God. Behavior apart from God is self serving. However, I believe all moral behavior flows from loving God and neighbor, which is why moral codes can vary by culture. I believe the moral code in the Bible always teaches us to be selfless, unfortunately the examples of people's morality in the Bible is far from perfect; thankfully, it also gives us great pictures of humanity struggling to understand that all God wants is for us to love outwardly.

Well, consider the many examples of the cultures that God instructed the Israelites to annihilate; moral codes can and do vary and they can be rejected wholesale. I realize this probably collapses into your point #9 as to this being ordered and carried out, but I maintain some level of agreement in that when the end becomes a moral code (versus the end being God first and foremost), there will be failure and hypocrisy.

I am not sure I was clear on #9. I agree with everything in your response, but I do not think it addresses what I was trying say. I certainly believe that the Bible speaks to us about a supernatural God and it is inspired by Him. I also believe it instructs us about the truth of our condition and gives us the truth about returning into a redemptive relationship with God.

I think you were, perhaps my response was not clear enough. You're Catholic, so I don't want to insult your knowledge of what sacrament means, but us Protestants read the Bible as though God is actively participating with us in the reading. This is the Holy Spirit speaking to our hearts as we read about the very Word made flesh, Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14). So in that sense, I would conclude that the Bible is actively supernatural. This is not to be confused with the notion that the words themselves are supernaturally endowed with mystical powers just by virtue of the words I read - like some chant, charm or curse.

All I was saying is that it was inspired by God, but written by humans - we say this a lot, but never really think about what it means. Here is a comparison - let's say that we trying to understand Plato's philosophy by piecing together the notes from his students who for the sake of the example were unable to make any errors. Even without errors in the message, the texts would contain partial understanding based on the intellect of the writers - the experience of the writers - even the cultural background of the writers. God chose to use imperfect people to get His message out to the word - it may not contain error, but it certainly - I have not doubt that it was written by human beings and from their perspective, which was limited. I think it is good - it would be inaccessible if it was from God's perspective.

There has been a good bit of ink spilled on the subject. Maybe you could make a case for the average Joe or Jane not thinking in depth about it, but then again that's why they're average.

At the crux of it, you're dealing with the doctrine of inerrancy. I understand your struggle because I recently went through it myself, deciding whether or not I wanted to die on that hill, if necessary. I came to the conclusion that inerrancy is important because if the word is erroneous in the sense that entire doctrines are not of God, then we have an entirely questionable document where we will never comprehend what is truth and what is not. Each time some new thought process gains traction, new ideas and interpretations will crop up.

At that point, you'll end up with something like the rabidly postmodern view of Presiding Episcopal Bishop said which directly contradicts the passage itself:

...here are some remarkable examples of that kind of blindness in the readings we heard this morning, and slavery is wrapped up in a lot of it. Paul is annoyed at the slave girl who keeps pursuing him, telling the world that he and his companions are slaves of God. She is quite right. She’s telling the same truth Paul and others claim for themselves,” Bishop Jefferts Schori said, referencing the first chapter of the Epistle to the Romans.

“But Paul is annoyed, perhaps for being put in his place, and he responds by depriving her of her gift of spiritual awareness. Paul can’t abide something he won’t see as beautiful or holy, so he tries to destroy it. It gets him thrown in prison. That’s pretty much where he’s put himself by his own refusal to recognize that she, too, shares in God’s nature, just as much as he does – maybe more so!,” the presiding bishop said.

And yet, regardless of version, we read:

Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her. Acts 16:16-18

Then we are right back at the personal interpretation issue that you're trying to get at here. Bishop Schori has taken the passage and radically reinterpreted it in light of women's liberation thought and postmodern thought, wholly disagreeing with church history even though she comes from a tradition where catholicity (a-la tradition) is quite important.

I realize inerrency is supposed to mean that there are no errors period - IE: the number of Saul's stalls do vary in passages - but the term is actually applied to mean that there are no doctrinal errors.

 

[daq]

I realize inerrency is supposed to mean that there are no errors period - IE: the number of Saul's stalls do vary in passages - but the term is actually applied to mean that there are no doctrinal errors.

Peace in Christ to you Administrator HammerStone. Perhaps the Scripture is more perfectly inerrant than is generally understood, but only in its original languages, and rather not in any single English translation. I can only assume that you speak of the horse stalls or stables of Solomon. If so perhaps the Scripture is telling us something extremely valuable. I do not intend to "show anyone up" but rather, since unbelievers like to use these types of passages to attempt to invalidate the Scripture, it behooves us to be able to give verifiable answers for such things:

Deuteronomy 17:14-20 KJV
14. When thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15. Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16. But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17. Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
18. And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19. And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
20. That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

2 Chronicles 9:22-28 KJV
22. And king Solomon passed all the kings of the earth in riches and wisdom.
23. And all the kings of the earth sought the presence of Solomon, to hear his wisdom, that God had put in his heart.
24. And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and raiment, harness, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.
25. And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
26. And he reigned over all the kings from the river even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt.
27. And the king made silver in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar trees made he as the sycomore trees that are in the low plains in abundance.
28. And they brought unto Solomon horses out of Egypt, and out of all lands.

1 Kings 4:25-34 KJV
25. And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.
26. And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
27. And those officers provided victual for king Solomon, and for all that came unto king Solomon's table, every man in his month: they lacked nothing.
28. Barley also and straw for the horses and dromedaries brought they unto the place where the officers were, every man according to his charge.
29. And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
30. And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
31. For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
32. And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.
33. And he spake of trees, from the cedar tree that is in Lebanon even unto the hyssop that springeth out of the wall: he spake also of beasts, and of fowl, and of creeping things, and of fishes.
34. And there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the earth, which had heard of his wisdom.

1) Solomon neglected Torah in multiplying wives.
2) Solomon neglected Torah in multiplying horses, (many brought from Egypt).
3) Wisdom is good but cannot duplicate the worth of true love for the Father and his Word.
4) These things are supernal and "many horses" is very bad news for any man, (Revelation 9).