The 144,000 And Mount Zion

[guysmith]

The 144K, the only Christians "redeemed" from the earth, will be on Mount Zion in Jerusalem for the duration of 1260 days of the GT.

Revelation 14:1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

 

[evanom]

They're not christians, they're jews.

 

[veteran]

That's not what Revelation 14:1 is showing anyway.

Treating that verse which shows Christ Himself standing upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem like it's still "great tribulation" timing is to deny that our Lord Jesus ends the great tribulation when He does begin His thousand years reign in Jerusalem on earth, upon Mount Zion. Guysmith's doctrine is confusion.

 

[guysmith]

veteran,

You stated: Treating that verse which shows Christ Himself standing upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem like it's still "great tribulation" timing is to deny that our Lord Jesus ends the great tribulation when He does begin His thousand years reign in Jerusalem on earth, upon Mount Zion.

My response: Your statement is correct and the timing is after Christ's advent, the millenium would have begun. I however believe that Revelation 14 description of Christ standing with the only male Christian survivors (at Christ's advent) is because they were on Mount Zion for the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. The OT contains examples of "Judaeo Christians" being on Mount Zion in Jerusalem just prior to the advent of Christ; Zechariah 14: 1-5 for example.

You stated: Guysmith's doctrine is confusion.

My response: You have already stated that you want no part in being on Mount Zion to escape the rule-of-the-AC. You have verbally disqualified yourself from this "calling" so any of it would be confusion to you. But don't worry, scriptures state that the most amount of time you will spend in the camps, once you are rounded up, will be 10 days.

Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Guy

 

[omnicopy]

Guy,

I think you are right. People are not going to last long once the Great Tribulation starts. I can only hope and pray that I will be among those who have kept the word of His patience and I will be kept from that hour..

I had a dream once that people were willingly walking out of their homes and apartments and just walking to the place they were going to be killed. They weren't even trying to make it through even one day. I mean, thinking about it, why even try? It will be a day of gloom and darkness.

One lady told me she saw that the churches were going to be the place people would evenutally get the mark of the beast. The beast takes over the churches empties them out and uses them she said. Hopefully then they will destroy them after that????

Kim

 

[veteran]

veteran,

You stated: Treating that verse which shows Christ Himself standing upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem like it's still "great tribulation" timing is to deny that our Lord Jesus ends the great tribulation when He does begin His thousand years reign in Jerusalem on earth, upon Mount Zion.

My response: Your statement is correct and the timing is after Christ's advent, the millenium would have begun. I however believe that Revelation 14 description of Christ standing with the only male Christian survivors (at Christ's advent) is because they were on Mount Zion for the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. The OT contains examples of "Judaeo Christians" being on Mount Zion in Jerusalem just prior to the advent of Christ; Zechariah 14: 1-5 for example.

You're still not following the prophecy of those with Christ upon Mount Zion. After the Rev.7 144,000 mention, there is another group shown at Rev.7:9 foward that came out of great tribulation and stand before Christ and His Throne, clothed in white robes with palms in their hands, having made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). We're told there that group is a great multitude which no man could number. And, those verses include Millennium timing events.

In the next chapter after Rev.14, in Rev.15:2-4, there's also a second group standing on the sea of glass with their harps, singing the song of Moses and the song of The Lamb. In Rev.15:2 we're told they had gotten victory over the beast, over his image, over his mark, and over the number of his name. That's a prophetic link back to that second group of Rev.7:9 forward, the Gentiles that will make a stand for Christ during the tribulation.

You stated: Guysmith's doctrine is confusion.

My response: You have already stated that you want no part in being on Mount Zion to escape the rule-of-the-AC. You have verbally disqualified yourself from this "calling" so any of it would be confusion to you. But don't worry, scriptures state that the most amount of time you will spend in the camps, once you are rounded up, will be 10 days.

Guy

That's right, I have said I don't want ANY part in the New World Order plan to use Jerusalem as false messiah's future headquarters during the tribulation. Anyone standing in Jesus Christ shouldn't want to be part of that false working in Jerusalem either.

Trying to link the time of delivering up only to Christ's servants present in Jerusalem is where your major prophetic error is. The fact that some of us will be delivered up to councils and the synagogues of Satan in the end to give a Testimony for Christ has nothing to do with having to be at Jerusalem in order to be delivered up.

Some of those sealed by Christ will be killed, others will be delivered up to give His Testimony. No one knows just who those will be yet, not until it happens. The sealing by God's seal in Rev.7 and 9 is for the purpose of Christ's servants not being deceived by the final events of the end. It cannot be used to determine exactly who will be killed, and who will be delivered up, like what you're trying to say.

Furthermore, your interpretation appears to depend upon the false idea that all the 144,000 are Jews in Jerusalem. Whether you intend that or not, that's how the majority are going to interpret what you're saying about the 144,000, because most are wrongly taught they're all Jews.

Per Biblical history though, only three of those Rev.7 twelve tribes represent Jews today, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, called the "house of Judah" in God's Word after the kingdom split of 1 Kings 11 forward. The REST of those tribes of Israel is pointing to a remnant of the ten lost tribes which are still scattered among the Gentiles.

And because Rev.7:9 shows a second group that overcome in Christ during the great tribulation, and stand with Him next to His Throne, means they are under His sealing too, like the 144,000 are. Both groups together make up His Church, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. And that's the same pattern of His Church in Acts, and in all of Paul's Epistles, and in the Old Testament prophets of the return of Israel to the lands of promise under Christ, the believing Gentiles returning along with them. But the doctrine you're preaching is a false separation between the 144,000 of believing Israel and the Rev.7:9 mention of believing Gentiles that are His elect too.

 

[veteran]

Now here's a good question: what would be the purpose behind trying to separate those 144,000 of all twelve tribes of Israel in Rev.7 totally apart from the second group of Gentiles given in Rev.7:9 forward?

Those on a Pre-tribulational "secret rapture" doctrine do that so they can tell their congregations they're not going to be here on earth during the great tribulation, that they're going to be 'raptured out' before the tribulation begins. They teach those of Rev.7:9 forward is the Gentile Church raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation. They then treat the 144,000 as all Jews in Jerusalem that are 'left-behind', whom they say will come to Christ Jesus by trials DURING the great tribulation. They also leave out the rest of the Rev.7 Scripture about that second group having come out of great tribulation by washing their robes in the Blood of The Lamb Jesus, which means they went through the tribulation and overcame through Christ Jesus (linked to those of Rev.15:2-4).

So Guy, regardless of whether you intend to not preach the false Pre-trib "secret rapture", that's exactly what you're doing when you try to separate that 144,000 group apart from the second group of Rev.7:9 forward which points to elect Gentiles that are sealed to go through the tribulation also.

The false idea some here have that there are two separate Gospels, one for Israel, and another for Gentiles, also treats those two groups of Rev.7 as separate for the purpose of supporting the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory. Revelation 13 shows the world beast kingdom will be setup over the whole earth, over all peoples and nations, and that all who refuse to bow to the image of the another beast should be killed. That will not just be about those in the area of Jerusalem during the tribulation, but upon peoples of all nations, including the nations in the West.

 

[guysmith]

Kim,

You stated: I had a dream once that people were willingly walking out of their homes and apartments and just walking to the place they were going to be killed. They weren't even trying to make it through even one day. I mean, thinking about it, why even try? It will be a day of gloom and darkness.

My response: I have often thought this.

Guy

 

[omnicopy]

I do not believe the 144,000 are just Jewish men. I believe the 144,000 is the remenant church, made up of gentiles and jewish people. That is the number for the men that total in that group. That is the group of people that got birthed after I prayed and fasted for the last 29 years, I believe.

This group of people (144,000) have the most chance of understanding what the falling away is, that I have seen so far in almost 30 years. The other people are so far gone that you can't even begin to tell them anything.

Kim

 

[guysmith]

veteran,

You stated: The false idea some here have that there are two separate Gospels, one for Israel, and another for Gentiles, also treats those two groups of Rev.7 as separate for the purpose of supporting the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory.

My response: I do not believe is two seperate Gospels, one for Israel and another for the Gentiles.

You stated: Now here's a good question: what would be the purpose behind trying to separate those 144,000 of all twelve tribes of Israel in Rev.7 totally apart from the second group of Gentiles given in Rev.7:9 forward?

My response #1: Good question. What is the purpose of seperating these two groups if there is only one gospel? At Revelation 14: what is the purpose of seperating the 144,000 from the second group? In other words, why doesn't John say that Christ is found standing with the 144K and great multitude? And since you believe that there is only one Gospel, why does Revelation 14 state that the 144K are the only ones redeemed from the earth (which could learn the song), if there are others from the second group which are also redeemed from the earth as you are proposing?

My response #2: The 144K is a description of those male Christians which never physically die and the second group is a description of those Christians which will be martyred during the GT. That's my explanation for seperating the two groups, what's yours?

You stated: Furthermore, your interpretation appears to depend upon the false idea that all the 144,000 are Jews in Jerusalem.

My response: I don't believe that you have understood a word I have documented.

You stated: That's right, I have said I don't want ANY part in the New World Order plan to use Jerusalem as false messiah's future headquarters during the tribulation. Anyone standing in Jesus Christ shouldn't want to be part of that false working in Jerusalem either.

My response: So, you believe that the two witnesses are part of that false working in Jerusalem?

Guy

 

[veteran]

I do not believe the 144,000 are just Jewish men. I believe the 144,000 is the remenant church, made up of gentiles and jewish people. That is the number for the men that total in that group. That is the group of people that got birthed after I prayed and fasted for the last 29 years, I believe.

This group of people (144,000) have the most chance of understanding what the falling away is, that I have seen so far in almost 30 years. The other people are so far gone that you can't even begin to tell them anything.

Kim

The reason why Rev.7 is showing a group of elect 144,000 Israelites, and then another elect great multitude that can't be numbered, is so we understand what Apostle Paul revealed in Romans 11:1-5 about the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace. It's about God's promises to Israel. Without the manifesting of those promises, we Gentile believers would have no Salvation, for they wouldn't either. We become part of the "commonwealth of Israel" with that believing remnant of Israel, when we believe on Christ Jesus with them, and then like our Lord Jesus and all His Apostles taught, we both become one Body in Christ Jesus.

Thus I believe the 144,000 elect remnant out of all 12 tribes of Israel is a literal number. But there is no literal number of elect Gentiles given. Yet both are one in Christ Jesus together. Don't miss the markers in Rev.5; 7, and 15 which show that unknown group of elect Gentiles are standing before Christ's Throne and singing the song of The Lamb also. If you do, you'll be limiting the number of Christ's Body only to those 144,000. The scattered remnants of the ten tribes of Israel are still descendents of Israel, even though many of them think they are Gentile. Both groups are sealed with God's sealing for the end, which is what the Rev.7 chapter is especially about.

 

[veteran]

veteran,

You stated: The false idea some here have that there are two separate Gospels, one for Israel, and another for Gentiles, also treats those two groups of Rev.7 as separate for the purpose of supporting the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory.

My response: I do not believe is two seperate Gospels, one for Israel and another for the Gentiles.

But do you treat the 144,000 and the group of Rev.7:9 forward as divided within Christ's Body? If you don't, then why do you try to separate the 144,000 from the great multitude? Both groups make a stand in Christ per the Revelation Scripture.


[quote"Guysmith"]You stated: Now here's a good question: what would be the purpose behind trying to separate those 144,000 of all twelve tribes of Israel in Rev.7 totally apart from the second group of Gentiles given in Rev.7:9 forward?

My response #1: Good question. What is the purpose of seperating these two groups if there is only one gospel? At Revelation 14: what is the purpose of seperating the 144,000 from the second group? In other words, why doesn't John say that Christ is found standing with the 144K and great multitude? And since you believe that there is only one Gospel, why does Revelation 14 state that the 144K are the only ones redeemed from the earth (which could learn the song), if there are others from the second group which are also redeemed from the earth as you are proposing?[/quote]

So; it appears you DO treat the two groups as separate within Christ's Body of believers. And yes, there is only One Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same Gospel for both believing Israel and believing Gentile, both becoming one as Christ's many membered Body of believers. So what of this...

Rev 7:9-10
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God Which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
(KJV)

... and this...

Rev 7:14-17
14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
(KJV)

So you deny those Scriptures as written, about that great multitude being present at Christ's Throne, having come out of great tribulation to make their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb, and therefore are before His Throne? How is that NOT about that great multitude out of all nations being saved along with the 144,000?

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

Just HOW is that NOT about saved elect Gentiles too? Out of every "kindred" and "people" is not an Israelite only pointer.

My response #2: The 144K is a description of those male Christians which never physically die and the second group is a description of those Christians which will be martyred during the GT. That's my explanation for seperating the two groups, what's yours?

You can't know who they are exactly, simply by the fact that God's remnant of Israel is still scattered among the Gentiles. The 5th seal reveals some being killed for giving Christ's Testimony which is definitely a sign of Christ's elect, so your prognostication that Salvation will be in Jerusalem PRIOR to Christ's coming there to end the great tribulation does not fit God's Word on the matter. There's no way to prove that 144,000 remnant only dwells in Jerusalem today, nor that they will only be in Jerusalem during the tribulation timing, nor that the delivering up only involves just that 144,000. The Rev.7:9-17 great multitude shows they also like the 144,000 are not deceived, which is what God's sealing of Rev.7 & 9 is about.

You stated: Furthermore, your interpretation appears to depend upon the false idea that all the 144,000 are Jews in Jerusalem.

No, what I said was about wrongly treating that 144,000 as being ONLY in Jerusalem during the trib, and nowhere else on earth, which is how many are misled into thinking the 144,000 are all Jews in Jerusalem.

My response: I don't believe that you have understood a word I have documented.

You stated: That's right, I have said I don't want ANY part in the New World Order plan to use Jerusalem as false messiah's future headquarters during the tribulation. Anyone standing in Jesus Christ shouldn't want to be part of that false working in Jerusalem either.

My response: So, you believe that the two witnesses are part of that false working in Jerusalem?

Guy

I've understood what you've said very well. I'm not the one who is confused. Sorry my responses have shot many holes in your theory, but let the chips fall where they may.

Your failed attempt to infer I believe the working of God's two witnesses are part of false messiah's working in Jerusalem is a new TWIST on your part. You show your lack of sincereness with that kind of statement. Anyone who looks at my statement you quoted will easily see I never inferred any such thing. False messiah and his NWO work against Christ; God's two witnesses He sends there work against false messiah and the NWO. Got it?

So as of right now, you've revealed you actually DO believe there's a false separation between the elect of Israel (144,000) and elect Gentiles (the great multitude). How will that great multitude be martyred as Christians if they are not sealed by God? Being a Christian martyr for Christ means making a stand in Christ Jesus, prepared with His Testimony. And the sealing of Rev.7 & 9 is specifically about not being deceived during the time of stinging.

You've shown you favor preaching a split in Christ's Body that does not exist.

You stated in your very first post here: "The 144K, the only Christians "redeemed" from the earth...".

I've easily shown by God's Word how your statement is false.


Our Lord Jesus is showing John the 144,000 of an elect remnant of Israel, and then a great multitude of elect Gentiles, to show how His Church is about both believing Israelite and believing Gentile as one. Because of that, neither group can try and claim they are special, or above the other, but exist in Christ together. That's why the Milennium markers given at the end of Rev.7 also apply to that 144,000 elect remnant of Israel, even though that group is not specifically mentioned being near Christ's Throne in that same Rev.7 chapter. Yet we know in Rev.14 that 144,000 are also before Christ's Throne after His return.

 

[precepts]

If the 144,000 aren't Jews, I wonder why they would go thru the trouble of listing the number of their tribes? :mellow: Another logical question would be if they are jews, wouldn't that mean the resurrection happened during the time the jews knew their lineage, like in the time of the early Roman empire? Go figure!

 

[omnicopy]

The bible says that not all that came out of Egypt were of Israel. So even though some of these people in the wilderness that were included under tribe names of Israel, they really weren't true Jews. The bible says that the nation of Israel was already gone awhoring in Egypt before they even were delivered by the 10 plages. They never stopped going awhoring after that, hence they were taken captive in Babylon for 70 years. Jerusalem was destroyed again in 70 AD after they crucified Jesus with the Pilates help. Eventually we see God taking the husbandman away from Israel altogether and giving it to another, the gentiles. Now it has been given to the gentiles, that will not change. The Jewish people now can only be saved like the gentiles because the husbandman has been given to another. It's not going back to Israel, I don't think ever. We are all saved in the same way now and it is going to stay that way now until the end.

It clearly states that a Jew is a Jew in their heart, a true Jew. In the gentile churches in Revelation 2-3 it calls that members Jews. So we see it there very plainly. This fact isn't going to change, even when the time of the gentiles are fulfilled. The Jewish people still have to be saved the same way the gentiles are now. Even in the last week, the 70th week, that is still to come. That is the tribulation. They have to repent and be saved the same way of gentiles.

I sitll think the 144,000 are the true church at the end of things. This number is a male count.

I have to be shown more about this. I am seeking all the time. It says seek and ye shall find. So I plan on learning more yet.

Everyone can talk all they want about replacement theory and the "time of the gentiles being fulfilled" and what that all means. The bottomline is is no matter what everyone now is saved the same way and that doesn't change ever again. It is by being drawn of God, having someone come into to our lives to show us we have to repent, then being in the valley of decision, then making the decision if they are going to repent or go on in the same way, then wanting Jesus to be Lord of our lives, then being baptised in the Holy Spirit. That is the only way to be saved from now on. I don't know what all the rest means but that is that way it is now.

Also as always the worse that Israel gets, even today, as it hardens it heart against God, which I think it has, the less and less we will see God doing things for her. The bible says that God can pluck any nation up that He wants to AT ANY time He wants, reguardless what what He has said about that nation. He is plucking them up at anytime, I think, any nation, even the US.

Everything is contingent on what they do for God, if they will hear Him. That never changes. That is why so many things have changed over the years for the nation of Israel as compared to what God says in the bible about them.

Judge for yourself! Do you think they have changed? Do you see hordes of Jewish people accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior or just a few? Do you see hardening of hearts or not? That will tell you how things are going to go in the tribulation.

It's a day of gloom and darkness but for the righteous they will trample the wicked beneath their feet!

Kim

 

[precepts]

Onmi's

The bible says that not all that came out of Egypt were of Israel. So even though some of these people in the wilderness that were included under tribe names of Israel, they really weren't true Jews.

There was never a one named under a tribe that was not Jewish. Stop making up your own doctrines to fit your own idealogy!



Omni's

The bible says that the nation of Israel was already gone awhoring in Egypt before they even were delivered by the 10 plages. They never stopped going awhoring after that, hence they were taken captive in Babylon for 70 years. Jerusalem was destroyed again in 70 AD after they crucified Jesus with the Pilates help. Eventually we see God taking the husbandman away from Israel altogether and giving it to another, the gentiles. Now it has been given to the gentiles, that will not change. The Jewish people now can only be saved like the gentiles because the husbandman has been given to another. It's not going back to Israel, I don't think ever. We are all saved in the same way now and it is going to stay that way now until the end.

I think you're referring to Samson!




Omni's

It clearly states that a Jew is a Jew in their heart, a true Jew. In the gentile churches in Revelation 2-3 it calls that members Jews. So we see it there very plainly. This fact isn't going to change, even when the time of the gentiles are fulfilled. The Jewish people still have to be saved the same way the gentiles are now. Even in the last week, the 70th week, that is still to come. That is the tribulation. They have to repent and be saved the same way of gentiles.

There's no christian listed in any tribe of Israel. We become spiritual Israel, yes, but not numbered under any tribe, maybe under the 12 disciples.



Omni's

I sitll think the 144,000 are the true church at the end of things. This number is a male count.

That's because you're not using the line upon line logic to decipher the word. Opinions aren't facts, and I wouldn't rest my faith on thoughts and opinions.

Omini's

I have to be shown more about this. I am seeking all the time. It says seek and ye shall find. So I plan on learning more yet.

Well, if you have to be shown more, then maybe you should ask more and not show your ignorance. :huh:



Omni's

Everyone can talk all they want about replacement theory and the "time of the gentiles being fulfilled" and what that all means. The bottomline is is no matter what everyone now is saved the same way and that doesn't change ever again. It is by being drawn of God, having someone come into to our lives to show us we have to repent, then being in the valley of decision, then making the decision if they are going to repent or go on in the same way, then wanting Jesus to be Lord of our lives, then being baptised in the Holy Spirit. That is the only way to be saved from now on. I don't know what all the rest means but that is that way it is now.

Which has nothing to do with the topic. When some think it's peace and safety, it's a sudden destruction.

 

[omnicopy]

Precept,

Sorry you doubt God's Word, that's probably your problem!

It's not my own doctrine. The bible clearly says that not all that came out of Egypt were Israelites. Sorry you're wrong.

Try reading Romans 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:

But of course, only one of deeper understanding could understand this.

Or else why were some of them killed by God when Moses broke the stone tablets?

This means that not all blood Jews are real Jews of the heart. Many were awhoring already from Egypt.

Kim

 

[precepts]

Omni's

Precept,

Sorry you doubt God's Word, that's probably your problem!

It's not my own doctrine. The bible clearly says that not all that came out of Egypt were Israelites. Sorry you're wrong.

I might not be much of a writer but I do know how to read and comprehend. Did the Bible say that those who came out with them were numbered with them? It can only be on purpose that you keep missing that fact.

Try reading Romans 9:6

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL:

But of course, only one of deeper understanding could understand this.

Or else why were some of them killed by God when Moses broke the stone tablets?

This means that not all blood Jews are real Jews of the heart. Many were awhoring already from Egypt.

YOu've missed the bus! :huh:

 

[omnicopy]

What church denomination you from anyway Precepts? Never mind I got it.

Kim

 

[Paul]

Kim, do you know the word "Jew" is only naming two of the Tribes of Israel. There are thirteen, counting the Levites, that God spread thru out all the Tribes. The Tribes separated shortly after Solomon. Ten became the Northern Tribes and were taken captive 200 years before the Southern Tribes went off to Babylon.

God did not lose the Northern Tribes even if they lost themselves. Those Northern Tribes along with a large number of the Southern Tribes that did not return to Jerusalem but lost their identity and stayed in Babylon make up much of the Christian Church today. And some of the members of those Tribes are now discovering who they really are.

 

[omnicopy]

Paul,

I ran into a man who was Amish that didn't know he was Jewish. Then I thought I must have known a lot of Jewish people when I was growing up because I grew up around the Amish. Some of my relatives use to be Amish. Who knows I might even be Jewish myself?

Kim