The Angel and Jesus

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newnature

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Angel of the Lord in Exodus 3:1-3, the question is, who’s in the bush? Now Moses…the mountain of God. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. But look at verse 4, when the Lord saw he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush. Well, that makes it sound like Lord and God, they’re two different things, one’s referring to the other, but you already know the angel is in the bush. You got at least two in the bush, and they’re both deity. Well, how can you be sure about the angel of the Lord being deity? By the time we hit Exodus 3, the angel of the Lord has a history in the biblical text.

This is the Jacob and Laban story in Genesis 31:10-13, when Jacob has been instructed what to do with his flocks, so that they multiply against Labans and in verse 11 and Jacob is relating it, he says then the angel of God said to me in the dream, Jacob, and I said, Here I am. He said, lift up your eyes and see all the goats. In verse 13, the angel tells Jacob, I am the God of Bethel. Bethel is the place where Jacob first encountered Yahweh when he lift home, and he built an altar there to him, that’s where the angel tells Jacob, I’m the God of Bethel.

In Genesis 48:14-16, This is Jacob’s prayer. He’s blessing Joseph’s children, and the old man, Jacob gets the older and the younger mixed up and he crosses his hands and bless them. And Joseph tries to correct him, because you’re supposed to bless the firstborn a special way, and then the other one and Jacob says, No, don’t correct me. We get that part of the story, but we miss what he actually prays. In verse 14, but Israel, Jacob (Jacob’s name has been changed to Israel) and he blessed Joseph, saying… What he prays, there’s three stanzas to the prayer. “The God in whose ways my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked.” “The God who has been my shepherd from my birth to this day.” Now, the third stanza, you expect it to be the God who did something else, that’s not what you get. “The Angel who has redeemed me from all harm, may he bless these lads.” In Hebrew, the verb is singular. You cannot translate it, may they bless, like God and the angel are separate, God and the angel, they’re both Yahweh. May HE bless the lads.

The tradition of the Jews used to teach that there were two Yahweh figures. There was the invisible transcendent one and then there was this second one who was the same in terms of being Yahweh, but was also distinct in some ways and one of the ways that gets expressed is the angel. Where did we lose this, it used to be part of our theology, in between the testaments, even before Jesus ever showed up as a man. They had this theology.

The example from the letter of Jude in the New Testament, it claims to be written by Jesus’ brother. In the gospel of John we’re told that none of Jesus’ brothers believed him until after the resurrection. So here’s someone who is close to Jesus, and the fact that they’re writing a letter now, and he calls himself a servant of Messiah Jesus, means he’s a full conversion of his imagination. Jude’s brother walked around saying he was God incarnate, he’s creator embodied as human. So in Jude verse 4, he just called Jesus the Lord. Then in Jude verse 5, He says, I desire to remind you all, though you know all this, that the Lord after saving a people out of Egypt. So he’s putting Jesus in the angel of the Lord slot.

Now, keep all this in mind as we start talking about Jesus. In the opening of the gospel of John, we’re told that from all eternity Jesus was with God and was God, distinct from God and also God. That’s the same paradox we saw with the angel of Yahweh. And then John says that God’s word became human and set up a tabernacle among us, the temple presence of the invisible God. There’s a story about when Jesus took three of his followers up to a mountain and his true identity was revealed, he was transformed into a glorious human figure. So the angel of the Lord was God appearing like a human, and Jesus is God now, become a human. In the New Testament, no one ever uses the phrase angel of the Lord to describe Jesus. Why not? They wanted to avoid the idea that Jesus was merely an angel. For them, Jesus was Yahweh God become human, in order to fulfill his ultimate mission to fully reunite heaven and earth once and for all.

These authors were guided by God’s spirit to portray God in these very complex ways. And these ways approach boundary lines that make exclusive monotheists a bit twitchy, at least modern monotheists. So, there’s this character, the angel of Yahweh, and when you say angel of Yahweh, you should be picturing a human figure. Other biblical stories about prophets who get a glimpse into God’s space like Isaiah, Ezekiel or Daniel, and what they see is a glorious human figure on a throne who’s called Yahweh. So the one on the throne and the angel of Yahweh, this is the same person. The tabernacle is the throne room of God himself, the angel of the Lord is the royal glory of Yahweh appearing as a human. When this human figure appears, this human being isn’t the sum total of Yahweh’s identity, Yahweh is still greater and above all, this is a localized expression of Yahweh, but it’s not all that Yahweh is. In the Old Testament, you have a category of the one God Yahweh having a manifestation of himself that is in some way distinct from Yahweh, called the angel of the Lord, but who in essence is Jesus.
 

bdavidc

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When we remain faithful to Scripture alone, the Bible provides a very clear portrait of the Angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is a messenger sent by God. The Hebrew word malak just means messenger, and angels are created beings that obey the command of God ~Psalm 103:20. The Angel of the Lord at times speaks with the authority of God, but that does not make the angel a second Yahweh. God often speaks through His messengers and prophets, and when they speak His words, they speak as He commands ~Hebrews 1:1. In passages such as Genesis 16, Judges 6, and 2 Samuel 24, the angel executes God’s commands, not independent divine action. Scripture is crystal clear that angels are not God, they are not to be worshiped, and they are created servants ~Nehemiah 9:6, ~Hebrews 1:6 through 7. The New Testament also makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is not an angel. He is the eternal Son of God, far above the angels, and separate from them in nature, authority, and identity ~Hebrews 1:3 through 5. For that reason, the New Testament never calls Jesus the Angel of the Lord. When the Angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament, God is revealing Himself through His messenger, not splitting Himself into two Yahwehs or presenting a second divine being. God Himself says, “I am the Lord, and there is no other” ~Isaiah 45:5. Scripture never lets us forget that truth.
 

newnature

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Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Hear O Israel, the LORD is our God, the Lord is one, and as for you, you shall love the LORD your God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength. Look at the second day word here, LORD, written in all capital letters, this is the personal name of Israel’s God. We first learned the meaning of this name in the story of Moses and the boring bush. God appears to Moses and he commissions him to liberate the Israelites from slavery. Moses wonders, what if people ask the name of the God who has sent me? So God responds, tell them LORD (EHYEH) has sent me to you, that Hebrew word EHYEH means, I will be.

In other words, God’s name means that he is the one who is and who will be, God’s existence doesn’t depend on anyone or anything else, this God simply is. It will sound kind of strange for Moses to go say to the Israelites, I will be, has sent me to you, only God can say, I will be. God tells Moses the version he should say aloud, Yahweh, the God of our ancestors, he has sent me to you. That word Yahweh is the ancient Hebrew form of the verb, He will be, and this is the personal name of the God of Israel.
 

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Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Hear O Israel, the LORD is our God, the Lord is one, and as for you, you shall love the LORD your God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your strength. Look at the second day word here, LORD, written in all capital letters, this is the personal name of Israel’s God. We first learned the meaning of this name in the story of Moses and the boring bush. God appears to Moses and he commissions him to liberate the Israelites from slavery. Moses wonders, what if people ask the name of the God who has sent me? So God responds, tell them LORD (EHYEH) has sent me to you, that Hebrew word EHYEH means, I will be.

In other words, God’s name means that he is the one who is and who will be, God’s existence doesn’t depend on anyone or anything else, this God simply is. It will sound kind of strange for Moses to go say to the Israelites, I will be, has sent me to you, only God can say, I will be. God tells Moses the version he should say aloud, Yahweh, the God of our ancestors, he has sent me to you. That word Yahweh is the ancient Hebrew form of the verb, He will be, and this is the personal name of the God of Israel.
When we remain faithful to Scripture alone, the Bible provides a very clear portrait of the Angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is a messenger sent by God. The Hebrew word malak just means messenger, and angels are created beings that obey the command of God ~Psalm 103:20. The Angel of the Lord at times speaks with the authority of God, but that does not make the angel a second Yahweh. God often speaks through His messengers and prophets, and when they speak His words, they speak as He commands ~Hebrews 1:1. In passages such as Genesis 16, Judges 6, and 2 Samuel 24, the angel executes God’s commands, not independent divine action. Scripture is crystal clear that angels are not God, they are not to be worshiped, and they are created servants ~Nehemiah 9:6, ~Hebrews 1:6 through 7. The New Testament also makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is not an angel. He is the eternal Son of God, far above the angels, and separate from them in nature, authority, and identity ~Hebrews 1:3 through 5. For that reason, the New Testament never calls Jesus the Angel of the Lord. When the Angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament, God is revealing Himself through His messenger, not splitting Himself into two Yahwehs or presenting a second divine being. God Himself says, “I am the Lord, and there is no other” ~Isaiah 45:5. Scripture never lets us forget that truth.
 

newnature

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When we remain faithful to Scripture alone, the Bible provides a very clear portrait of the Angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is a messenger sent by God. The Hebrew word malak just means messenger, and angels are created beings that obey the command of God ~Psalm 103:20. The Angel of the Lord at times speaks with the authority of God, but that does not make the angel a second Yahweh. God often speaks through His messengers and prophets, and when they speak His words, they speak as He commands ~Hebrews 1:1. In passages such as Genesis 16, Judges 6, and 2 Samuel 24, the angel executes God’s commands, not independent divine action. Scripture is crystal clear that angels are not God, they are not to be worshiped, and they are created servants ~Nehemiah 9:6, ~Hebrews 1:6 through 7. The New Testament also makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is not an angel. He is the eternal Son of God, far above the angels, and separate from them in nature, authority, and identity ~Hebrews 1:3 through 5. For that reason, the New Testament never calls Jesus the Angel of the Lord. When the Angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament, God is revealing Himself through His messenger, not splitting Himself into two Yahwehs or presenting a second divine being. God Himself says, “I am the Lord, and there is no other” ~Isaiah 45:5. Scripture never lets us forget that truth.
Judah was one of Jesus’ four brothers who are named in the gospel accounts, none of the brothers followed Jesus as the Messiah before his death, but afterwards they saw him alive from the dead and then because his disciples. Judah ties Jesus to that ANGEL in the Old Testament!
 

newnature

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When we remain faithful to Scripture alone, the Bible provides a very clear portrait of the Angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is a messenger sent by God. The Hebrew word malak just means messenger, and angels are created beings that obey the command of God ~Psalm 103:20. The Angel of the Lord at times speaks with the authority of God, but that does not make the angel a second Yahweh. God often speaks through His messengers and prophets, and when they speak His words, they speak as He commands ~Hebrews 1:1. In passages such as Genesis 16, Judges 6, and 2 Samuel 24, the angel executes God’s commands, not independent divine action. Scripture is crystal clear that angels are not God, they are not to be worshiped, and they are created servants ~Nehemiah 9:6, ~Hebrews 1:6 through 7. The New Testament also makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is not an angel. He is the eternal Son of God, far above the angels, and separate from them in nature, authority, and identity ~Hebrews 1:3 through 5. For that reason, the New Testament never calls Jesus the Angel of the Lord. When the Angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament, God is revealing Himself through His messenger, not splitting Himself into two Yahwehs or presenting a second divine being. God Himself says, “I am the Lord, and there is no other” ~Isaiah 45:5. Scripture never lets us forget that truth.
Revelation 1:4, the phrase that we get in verse four and that is, “Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come,” this phrase gets repeated in verse 8, “I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty,” the phrase “him who is and who was and who is to come.” So, out of the gate this wording may or may not bring some Old Testament things to mind, the phrase is unusual in certain respects, John refers to God only as “my or his,” that is Jesus’ “father,” perhaps intentionally he omits the designation father from the greeting. In fact, he transforms this part of the traditional Christian salutation by referring to God using this very elaborate set of three clauses, each of which functions as a divine title.
 

newnature

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Page one of the Bible and the first person we meet there is God, he’s the one with authority over all creation. He speaks and creation obeys and he defines what is good and not good, he alone is king. But then surprisingly, as the pinnacle of all of God’s creative work, he makes humans and he calls all of them the image of God, he gives all humans the authority to rule. He tells the humans to subdue the earth and to rule it, so this task that once belonged only to elite kings, this task now belongs to every human being, all humans are being called to rule.
 

bdavidc

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Judah was one of Jesus’ four brothers who are named in the gospel accounts, none of the brothers followed Jesus as the Messiah before his death, but afterwards they saw him alive from the dead and then because his disciples. Judah ties Jesus to that ANGEL in the Old Testament!
The claim that Judah (Jude) “ties Jesus to the Angel of the Lord” is completely made up. Scripture never says this. Not once. Not in Jude. Not anywhere. This is you forcing an idea into the text.

Judah never “ties Jesus to the Angel of the Lord.” This notion falls flat the second you pay attention to what Scripture actually says. Jude refers to Jesus as Lord, Master, and the One who saved a people out of Egypt ~Jude 4 - 5 but he never calls Him an angel. The Bible very clearly distinguishes Jesus from angels. Jesus is the eternal Son of God who made all things ~John 1:1-3, ~Colossians 1:16 and He is worshiped by angels ~Hebrews 1:6. Angels are created beings who do what God tells them to do ~Psalm 103:20 and are never described as God or divine in nature or as being equal with God ~Nehemiah 9:6. Hebrews 1 makes it abundantly clear. God never told any angel, “You are My Son” ~Hebrews 1:5 and the Son sits at the right hand of God and angels are ministering spirits sent to serve ~Hebrews 1:13-14. When the Angel of the Lord shows up in the Old Testament, Scripture calls him a messenger, not God in flesh. A messenger speaks the words of the one who sent him and that is exactly how God said He works ~Numbers 22:35, ~Hebrews 1:1. The New Testament never calls Jesus the Angel of the Lord because Jesus is not a created messenger. He is the eternal Lord who is fully divine and infinitely above the angels in nature, authority, and identity ~Hebrews 1:3-4.
 

bdavidc

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Revelation 1:4, the phrase that we get in verse four and that is, “Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come,” this phrase gets repeated in verse 8, “I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty,” the phrase “him who is and who was and who is to come.” So, out of the gate this wording may or may not bring some Old Testament things to mind, the phrase is unusual in certain respects, John refers to God only as “my or his,” that is Jesus’ “father,” perhaps intentionally he omits the designation father from the greeting. In fact, he transforms this part of the traditional Christian salutation by referring to God using this very elaborate set of three clauses, each of which functions as a divine title.
You repeat the same point over and over and yet, it still has nothing to do with the subject. Revelation 1:4-8 does not refer to the Angel of the Lord. It does not link Jesus to an angelic identity. The text is simply a declaration of the eternal God, the One “who is and who was and who is to come”, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty ~Revelation 1:8. None of those titles are ever applied to angels. Scripture is clear that angels are created servants who do the work God commands ~Psalm 103: 20, while Jesus is the eternal Son who is worshiped by angels ~Hebrews 1:6. God never said to any angel, “You are My Son” ~Hebrews 1:5.

So bringing Revelation 1 into the discussion does not address the actual issue at hand. It does not prove Jesus is the Angel of the Lord. It does not connect Him to that messenger role. It does not overthrow the clear distinction Scripture has already established. You keep repeating the same argument, but the text still does not say what you are contending. The passage is about the eternal God, not an angel, and it is not connected to the point you are making.
 

newnature

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You repeat the same point over and over and yet, it still has nothing to do with the subject. Revelation 1:4-8 does not refer to the Angel of the Lord. It does not link Jesus to an angelic identity. The text is simply a declaration of the eternal God, the One “who is and who was and who is to come”, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty ~Revelation 1:8. None of those titles are ever applied to angels. Scripture is clear that angels are created servants who do the work God commands ~Psalm 103: 20, while Jesus is the eternal Son who is worshiped by angels ~Hebrews 1:6. God never said to any angel, “You are My Son” ~Hebrews 1:5.

So bringing Revelation 1 into the discussion does not address the actual issue at hand. It does not prove Jesus is the Angel of the Lord. It does not connect Him to that messenger role. It does not overthrow the clear distinction Scripture has already established. You keep repeating the same argument, but the text still does not say what you are contending. The passage is about the eternal God, not an angel, and it is not connected to the point you are making.
You are eternally is secure, if you believe, you will have eternal life if you believe the gospel, you don’t merit salvation. If you do not believe, by definition you’re not a believer. Conditions are going to be oriented not around behavior, conditions are always going to be fluttering around the issue of do you believe or not, right now! That is the thing that matters, the only condition that has to be met, do you believer?
 

bdavidc

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You are eternally is secure, if you believe, you will have eternal life if you believe the gospel, you don’t merit salvation. If you do not believe, by definition you’re not a believer. Conditions are going to be oriented not around behavior, conditions are always going to be fluttering around the issue of do you believe or not, right now! That is the thing that matters, the only condition that has to be met, do you believer?
I am not sure how your reply connects to what I said, but I do agree that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. Thanks for sharing your perspective. If you want to clarify the point you were making, I am open to hearing it.