The Breaking of the Outer Man

[Episkopos]

This subject has never been so important as now. The time is short....and yet there is so much ego and flesh flying around the forum. I hope this thread will help people to understand the necessity of being broken before the Lord. A sample of grace has elevated many egos here. There is a real TRAP in receiving a little grace. It can lead to a LOT of misunderstandings. And the enemy has infiltrated into the churches in order to lift up the ego even higher. As Jesus said...if possible even the elect would be deceived.

If people only want to be told positive things I suggest the "Happy Thread".

But I ask for people to stick to the subject here. Of course many will want to come and display their unbrokenness. But if they do, then they must also be ready to be held up as an example of what not to do.

I hope that this thread will be beneficial for a closer walk with the Lord.

Maybe some could give a testimony of the power of the cross...

 

[Episkopos]

I told this story here before...but someone who was eating with him once asked Watchman Nee what it meant to be broken before the Lord. He responded by taking a cookie from the tray and breaking it in half. He then proceeded to push the 2 halves back together. Then he said...that cookie will never be the same.

Our experiences in life determine how we see things, and how we respond to things. There is a whole multitude in Christendom that is meant for rejection. These will reject correction from the brethren...and they will not go to God to be broken. No, they only want what they see as good from the Lord. But God is HARD on those whom He loves.

I'm speaking to you as someone who God has trained very deeply...so that I can't really convey the depth of it in a forum such as this. The pattern is this...many people will only hear me to the level of their lack of surrender. They can only go a very short way down the path of a true testimony. Then they will turn to attack and accuse.

I wonder at whether to give more accounts here of God's breaking...that might help some but create a huge carnal backlash in others.

Jesus came to bring a sword. The truth divides people. What I am bringing will cause some to rejoice and others to revile.

 

[Episkopos]

Without the breaking of the Lord we will become worse after a sample of grace. We will think we are special. We will allow the ego to be puffed up along with God's intended target...the inner man. So the need to be broken rises exponentially with any kind of spiritual elevation. Without it we can still become "twice the son of hell" we were before. And this truth is WAYY too hard for most to accept....seeing they are now elevated in their own minds.

So then God's pattern is by testing and trying.... give a little grace and see what people do with it. Those who allow themselves to be lifted up....will be torn down. Those who humble themselves based on their experience will be elevated further.

 

[Laurina]

Without the breaking of the Lord we will become worse after a sample of grace. We will think we are special. We will allow the ego to be puffed up along with God's intended target...the inner man. So the need to be broken rises exponentially with any kind of spiritual elevation. Without it we can still become "twice the son of hell" we were before.

...and destined to outer darkness IF we don't break. :'(

And this truth is WAYY too hard for most to accept....seeing they are now elevated in their own minds.

True

So then God's pattern is by testing and trying.... give a little grace and see what people do with it. Those who allow themselves to be lifted up....will be torn down. Those who humble themselves based on their experience will be elevated further.

Amen!
In reading the stories of Jeanne Guyon and Therese of Lisieux, it's inspiring how they totally surrendered themselves to/before God no matter HOW people treated them...they saw EVERYTHING as from God...and that's how they drew closer and closer to God. Total trust in God as a father, and unlike earthly parents who don't see everything that happens to your child, God sees everything and knows the hearts of all the people. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. If His children need disciplining, He sees to it, but IF you abuse one of His children you better look out, you can't hide. God is ever so loving!!

 

[Episkopos]

Broken and/or weaned. There is an experience of being broken by the Lord....by God Himself...and then there are various experiences meant to break us over time by having us be weaned from the flesh.

The first case...based on spiritual power from heaven...breaks us completely so that no spot or wrinkle of sin remains. The second one...being slow and gradual weaned of the flesh's more blatant abuses....is mistaken for a supposed process erroneously called "sanctification." No one is ever fully weaned from the flesh. Only the cross of Christ provides the necessary power to be rid of the sin nature.

This lowering of God's standard is typical of the religious system that sets up decoys so that people never come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[PinSeeker]

Broken and/or weaned. There is an experience of being broken by the Lord....by God Himself...

Well... hmmm... we are freed from the dominion of sin over us. As Paul says in Romans 6, as a result of being born again of the Spirit of God, sin has no dominion over us, since we are not under law but under grace... and in Romans 8, no longer under condemnation because we are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life has set us free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

and then there are various experiences meant to break us over time by having us be weaned from the flesh.

And then in Romans 8 again, to this... we know that God works all things together for our good, for those who are called according to His purpose and love Him. So, yes, we have trials and tribulations, but as James says [James 1:1-2], we can count even these as joy, because we know that God is testing our faith, not to see if we have it or not (because He Himself gave it to us; only God can give us His assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen [Hebrews 11:1]), but to grow us in this faith, to make us more holy... the testing of our faith produces steadfastness, which, over the course of the rest of our lives will have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. This is God's work in us.

The first case...based on spiritual power from heaven...

Really, it's all "based on this spiritual power from heaven"... the power of the Holy Spirit. In being born again, we are given a new spirit, even the Holy Spirit. And as Paul tells the Philippians, since God has begun this good work in us, He will ~ not "might," but will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ [Philippians 1:6], And we ourselves can make our calling and election sure... which means to make it evident to all, even to ourselves... because it is God Who works in us... in our heart, by the power of His Holy Spirit in us... so that we then will and work for His good pleasure [Philippians 2:13].

breaks us completely so that no spot or wrinkle of sin remains.

Then why do we still sin? <smile> Why do we still fall short of the glory of God? <smile> What you say here is not completely wrong here; there is the now and the not yet. We are accounted as righteous... because we are in Christ, so in that sense now, but we are not yet completely without spot or wrinkle, but surely will be. This is the simultaneous now and not yet. But even the not yet is a promised future reality, and an absolute guarantee. We see this now-and-not-yet in what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5, also:

"(God) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this (we) rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, (we) have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of (our) faith⁠ ~ more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire⁠ ~ may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though (we) have not seen Him, (we) love Him. Though (we) do not now see Him, (we) believe in Him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of (our) faith, the salvation of (our) souls."​

The second one...being slow and gradual weaned of the flesh's more blatant abuses....

Well, all... "abuses." Every part of us is stained by sin, so even the good things we do are not perfect... to some degree sinful. But one great day, this will be the case no longer.

is mistaken for a supposed process erroneously called "sanctification." No one is ever fully weaned from the flesh.

It is the process of sanctification, which doesn't mean "fully weaned from the flesh," but being made holy... or, in your verbiage here, being weaned from the flesh. You're right, in this life, we can never be fully "weaned from the flesh"... in this life we cannot be sinless, cannot be perfectly holy.

Only the cross of Christ provides the necessary power to be rid of the sin nature.

Hmmm, well, to guarantees that one day we will be fully rid of the sin nature... fully conformed to the image of Christ, which is what we are predestined by God for... "to be conformed to the image of his Son" ...according to Paul in Romans 8:29 and "for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will" in Ephesians 1:5. But we cannot be fully rid of it in this life.

This lowering of God's standard is typical of the religious system that sets up decoys so that people never come to the knowledge of the truth.

Yeah, no "decoys" here... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, Episkopos.

 

[Nathaniel]

Watchman Nee has received a great deal of criticism from many in the "christian" West. Not because of anything he said, but because of what has been said about him, and usually by those who have never read his words, or if they did, we're unable to comprehend them.

I haven't read The Release of the Spirit in about a decade now, I should probably revisit it. What I have read more recently is Christ the Sum of all Spiritual Things and The Ministry of God's Word. If you haven't read either one of them as of yet, I could not recommend them more highly.

"He who falls upon this Rock shall be broken, but who this Rock falls upon shall be crushed."

All His words are true.
Glory to God in the highest.

 

[Nathaniel]

Without the breaking of the Lord we will become worse after a sample of grace. We will think we are special. We will allow the ego to be puffed up along with God's intended target...the inner man. So the need to be broken rises exponentially with any kind of spiritual elevation. Without it we can still become "twice the son of hell" we were before. And this truth is WAYY too hard for most to accept....seeing they are now elevated in their own minds.

So then God's pattern is by testing and trying.... give a little grace and see what people do with it. Those who allow themselves to be lifted up....will be torn down. Those who humble themselves based on their experience will be elevated further.

Those who have the righteousness of Christ will be humble.
Those who have a righteousness of their own can never be humbled.
Until of course, they look upon Him whom they have pierced.
It's a sad state of affairs.
Keep trying to reach them, and I will pray that you find victory when tempted to vainglory and pride.
Your prayers for me in that same regard, would also be greatly appreciated

 

[Episkopos]

Well... hmmm... we are freed from the dominion of sin over us. As Paul says in Romans 6, as a result of being born again of the Spirit of God, sin has no dominion over us, since we are not under law but under grace... and in Romans 8, no longer under condemnation because we are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the Spirit of life has set us free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

Hey PS! :) One must be careful about jumping from Romans 6 to Romans 8 without considering a very sobering reading of Romans 7.

In Romans 7 Paul admits to DYING because of the law. So he began in the Spirit in Romans 6 with his initial sample of grace....that caused him to be victorious.....UNTIL he was tested....whereby he failed and fell from grace. Then from there he realized that he needed a LOT more than a sample of initial grace.

When a person is born again of the Spirit he is in a bubble...protected in a kind of spiritual maternity ward. But the collision of what is now in the new believer and the world with it's devil run agenda...will cause the new believer to waver and collapse. The new life in the heart of the believer can't cope with the trials of the world AND the residual sin nature within.


Paul testifies to this failure. He says...sin revived and I died... Sin was dead in the initial grace. But as soon as he left the maternity ward he failed and lost his initial grace. And this is typical of anybody who has actually been born from heaven by the Spirit.

So one must realize that one needs a FULL measure of grace (with the power of the cross) to overcome the evil within one's soul AND the world at large. Once one has sold ALL and bought the field of the kingdom THEN and only then do we have victory in Christ always...for as long as we remain in the abode of Christ.

Then why do we still sin? <smile> Why do we still fall short of the glory of God? <smile>

We sin because we are not yet under grace....abiding in Christ. In Him is no sin. We are in a transition phase between the law and grace....in the wilderness of an initial grace that has run dry. It is time to seek the Lord until He rains His righteousness on us. (I speak here of the church in a totality).

Grace and peace to you, Episkopos.

Likewise my brother. :)

 

[Wrangler]

many will want to come and display their unbrokenness.

It’s in vogue to shift accountability for your brokenness. A recent mistrial in Massachusetts of a woman who admitted to killing her 3 kids caused one commentator say we must to resist the trend to medicalize evil.

 

[shepherdsword]

I told this story here before...but someone who was eating with him once asked Watchman Nee what it meant to be broken before the Lord. He responded by taking a cookie from the tray and breaking it in half. He then proceeded to push the 2 halves back together. Then he said...that cookie will never be the same.

Our experiences in life determine how we see things, and how we respond to things. There is a whole multitude in Christendom that is meant for rejection. These will reject correction from the brethren...and they will not go to God to be broken. No, they only want what they see as good from the Lord. But God is HARD on those whom He loves.

I'm speaking to you as someone who God has trained very deeply...so that I can't really convey the depth of it in a forum such as this. The pattern is this...many people will only hear me to the level of their lack of surrender. They can only go a very short way down the path of a true testimony. Then they will turn to attack and accuse.

I wonder at whether to give more accounts here of God's breaking...that might help some but create a huge carnal backlash in others.

Jesus came to bring a sword. The truth divides people. What I am bringing will cause some to rejoice and others to revile.

After our initial refreshing we start here. The word is as sweet as honey but makes the belly bitter

Lam 3:1-8
I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath. He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light. Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all the day. My flesh and my skin hath he made old; he hath broken my bones. He hath builded against me, and compassed me with gall and travail. He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old. He hath hedged me about, that I cannot get out: he hath made my chain heavy. Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

We love it when we make it here:

Lam 3:20-26
My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. The Lord is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. The Lord is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.