The Day Of The LORD - What Is It?

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Davy

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So you're wiling to cling to your interpretation which means that the Scriptures are conflicting, saying opposite things. That should be a clue that your interpretation is incorrect!

Well, I think I well explained your false accusation thrown at me about contradiction in Scripture, which one can easily see that it is YOU that is struggling with that.

Paul wrote that if there is no resurrection then the Christians that have died are perished. They don't continue living in heaven in a spirit being form. They only are given their new spirit body when they are resurrected to life; only then are they alive again.

I well know what Apostle Paul said in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 verses about the 'asleep' saints that he said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. But that part you ADDED which I underlined in the above, is NOT written by Paul.

From the perspective by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, he taught there, that to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord. And in 1 Corinthians 15 Apostle Paul taught the resurrection type body is to a "spiritual body", and that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. He also showed the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes will also be changed to that resurrection body, even though those STILL ALIVE WILL NEVER HAVE BEEN DEAD IN A GRAVE.

So what you are relying on is incomplete information, because you are not staying in ALL of God's written Word.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
 
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Davy

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I'm relying on the words of Jesus. Jesus revealed the truth when he said, John 11:11-14 (WEB):

(11) ... he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
(12) The disciples therefore said, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
(13) Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep.
(14) So Jesus said to them plainly then, “Lazarus is dead.​

What you are actually relying on is a fleshy interpretation of being raised with miracles Lord Jesus did at His Ministry on earth at His 1st coming. In 1 Kings 17:19-24, Elijah prayed to God to allow the child's soul to come back into his flesh body, and it did. How do you know that's not what Lord Jesus did with Lazarus in that miracle? What does that event reveal about death and the soul?

It reveals that our soul is NOT part of our flesh material body, like Jesus also showed in Matthew 10:28. And since Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 is clear also that our 'spirit' is not part of our flesh material body, then that means our 'spirit' and 'soul' stick together, even when separated from our flesh body.

So even with the Old Testament evidence, we can know more detail of what happens at flesh death regarding our spirit with soul, and it does not disagree with what Apostle Paul taught, the difference is that Paul and Lord Jesus gave more DETAIL in The New Testament Scriptures. Yet in The Old Testament Books, as I showed, there still is enough detail to understand that our spirit with soul can be separated from our flesh body. So what was it that you were trying to say about the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3, that there is no awareness when the soul-spirit is outside the flesh body?
 

keithr

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In 1 Kings 17:19-24, Elijah prayed to God to allow the child's soul to come back into his flesh body, and it did. How do you know that's not what Lord Jesus did with Lazarus in that miracle? What does that event reveal about death and the soul?
The point I was making is that what Jesus was saying is that after we die we are in an unconscious state, just like being in a deep, dreamless sleep. I often wake up in the night and I have no idea what the time is. I don't know how long that I've been asleep for; sometimes I think it must be morning and time to get up, but when I look at the clock I see that I had only been sleeping for 2 or 3 hours and there is hours to go before I need to get up, and other times I wake up thinking I'd only just gone to sleep so it must be hours away from time to get up, but when I look at the clock I see that there's only 30 minutes to go before my alarm clock will go off. The death state that Jesus described as sleeping is just like that. We have no conscious thoughts and so no idea how much time has passed. People that died thousands of years ago and people that die the day before their resurrection will all have the same perception of passing time - they died (fell asleep) and they wake up when they are resurrected, and they (we) all will think that we have just been asleep for a short while.

So what was it that you were trying to say about the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3, that there is no awareness when the soul-spirit is outside the flesh body?
Yes. When we die our thoughts cease, just like being in a deep sleep. There would be no point Jesus preaching to spirits (spirit beings) if they were asleep, in an unconscious state, so the spirits in prison can't be referring to souls of dead people. But Peter and Jude do refer to spirits (angels) being imprisoned, until their judgement - the angels mentioned in Genesis 6 that left their own "house" (Jude 1:6, Greek oiketerion) and took on human form (that's the same Greek word that Paul uses in 2 Corinthians 5:2 - "desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven").
 

keithr

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I well know what Apostle Paul said in the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 verses about the 'asleep' saints that he said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes. But that part you ADDED which I underlined in the above, is NOT written by Paul.
As I quoted, Paul said that if there is no resurrection "Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Corinthians 15:18). So those who are "asleep" are perished (Greek word apollumi, meaning destroyed), so they can't be alive and conscious waiting in heaven (or a prison or anywhere else). Unless God restores them to a conscious alive state, and gives them a body (house, or dwelling-place), then there is no hope for them. When Paul talks of God/Jesus bringing those who have fallen asleep (died) he means that they will be restored to life first, before those living are caught up to join them. He is not implying that being "asleep" means they've been happily living in heaven for the last nearly 2,000 years:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (WEB):
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

From the perspective by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, he taught there, that to be absent from the body (flesh) is to be present with The Lord.
Yes, from our perspective that is how it will seem. We die, which will mean we enter an unconscious state, like a deep sleep, and then we wake up, for some thousands of years later, and it will seem like we've just had a nap and woken up in our new spiritual bodies, and we will be in the company of Jesus and the other saints.

So what you are relying on is incomplete information, because you are not staying in ALL of God's written Word.
I beg to differ! :)

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Yes, that is the hope for Christians. 2 Peter 1:2-4 (WEB):

(2) Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
(3) seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and virtue;
(4) by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.​
 

Davy

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The point I was making is that what Jesus was saying is that after we die we are in an unconscious state, just like being in a deep, dreamless sleep.

I don't see Jesus saying that at all with His raising of Lazarus. What I see when He told His disciples that Lazarus was only 'asleep' is a pointing to the existence of one's spirit-soul separate from dead flesh. And when His disciples were not going to understand that point, that is when Jesus finally told them that Lazarus was dead. But of course the truly 'main' purpose of the miracle was to reveal that flesh death is only a thing of this present world, and that is it not the end of life for the spirit-soul. Thus Jesus was good to us by giving us His Book of Revelation where He gave more detail on that very point, showing us truly when death of the spirit-soul will be, i.e., in the future "lake of fire" event after the "thousand years" of Revelation 20. Until then, none of the wicked perish forever yet, not even Satan and his angels.

So how long does it take for a Bible-believer to recognize that above lesson about one's spirit-soul continuing to have life after death of their flesh? I mean the Scripture about that is available to read, so how long does it take someone to actually recognize it?

I often wake up in the night and I have no idea what the time is. I don't know how long that I've been asleep for; sometimes I think it must be morning and time to get up, but when I look at the clock I see that I had only been sleeping for 2 or 3 hours and there is hours to go before I need to get up, and other times I wake up thinking I'd only just gone to sleep so it must be hours away from time to get up, but when I look at the clock I see that there's only 30 minutes to go before my alarm clock will go off. The death state that Jesus described as sleeping is just like that. We have no conscious thoughts and so no idea how much time has passed. People that died thousands of years ago and people that die the day before their resurrection will all have the same perception of passing time - they died (fell asleep) and they wake up when they are resurrected, and they (we) all will think that we have just been asleep for a short while.

That is the old Jewish idea of 'soul sleep'. There are certain Old Testament Scriptures that suggest that idea, however, there are more Bible Scriptures that show the detail of what really happens after our flesh dies, and some of that is even in The Old Testament Books too (like the 1 Kings 17 example of Elijah praying that the dead boys soul would come back into his body; and the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 example about our flesh going back to the earthly elements where it came from, but our spirit going back to God Who gave it). In Matthew 10:28, Jesus made it plain that our soul is NOT killed if our flesh body is killed. So that means our soul-spirit both CONTINUE to have life even after death of our flesh body.

One of the problems in thinking the Jew's theory of soul sleep is how they dwell upon that Genesis 2:7 verse of how God created Adam a 'living soul'. They wrongly think the soul part is also of our flesh, and that after flesh death it sleeps with our flesh, and must be raised with our flesh at the resurrection. Our soul is not flesh, as like Jesus showed in Matthew 10:28. Also in John 3, Jesus made it plain that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. So we cannot just go claiming our soul-spirit is made up of material matter from this earth. By that Lord Jesus revealed the two separate dimensions of existence, this earthy, and the heavenly. They are two separate manifestations, and two distinct operations in God's creation, with one being material matter, and the other of Spirit only.

Our 'dream' state is NOT relative to how our spirit-soul manifests in that other dimension. Apostle Paul revealed this in 2 Corinthians 12 when he spoke of one who was caught up to Paradise, to the third heaven, and heard words not lawful to utter. Likewise in Isaiah 6, God opened up the Heavenly dimension to Isaiah's spirit while he was still alive in the flesh, and Isaiah thought he had died because of seeing God upon His Heavenly Throne. Did Isaiah see that per his flesh eyes? No, Isaiah saw that through his spirit that was inside his flesh. This is why Apostle John in Revelation 1 said he was in the Spirit on The Lord's day when he was shown those visions by Christ Jesus.


When we die our thoughts cease, just like being in a deep sleep.

No, that's a myth taught by those who think Solomon in Ecclesiastes was always pointing to no awareness after death of the flesh body. In Ecclesiastes 9, Solomon was actually contrasting "the dead" in the truly dead, those that will not rise, like the hybrid giant race which God destroyed by the flood. Isaiah 26:14 is about those 'dead' that shall not rise (not be resurrected at the resurrection). All born in the flesh are to have a resurrection on the day of Christ's future return, but not those hybrid giants, the Rephaim. That Isaiah 26:14 verse in the KJV translated their proper name Rephaim to "deceased". In other OT Scripture they properly translated to Rephaim, a name for a group of giants in Genesis. This is why Eccl.9 says the memory of those have perished, and they will have nothing more to do under the sun, etc. That is NOT about our loved ones that have died. It is about the 'ultimate' dead, those who literally are no more, forever. Thus many reading that Eccl.9 Scripture fail to recognize that, and think Solomon was always pointing to people in general.

There would be no point Jesus preaching to spirits (spirit beings) if they were asleep, in an unconscious state, so the spirits in prison can't be referring to souls of dead people.

That's just it, you are assuming... those "spirits in prison" are asleep, which is actually silly, since the Scripture says The Gospel was preached to them by Jesus once both 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 is read. So WHY are you going against those written Scriptures in favor of a false doctrine from men? Just so you can keep your flesh? You can forget your flesh once it dies. You won't ever need it anymore after that.

And by the way, the Isaiah 42:6-7 Scripture was prophecy that Jesus would go to the heavenly prison and lead those out of darkness there, at His first coming, pointing to His resurrection.

But Peter and Jude do refer to spirits (angels) being imprisoned, until their judgement - the angels mentioned in Genesis 6 that left their own "house" (Jude 1:6, Greek oiketerion) and took on human form (that's the same Greek word that Paul uses in 2 Corinthians 5:2 - "desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven").

Firstly, the subject of 'preaching The Gospel' in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 by Peter had nothing to do with his teaching in 2 Peter 2 about the wicked false prophets and angels that rebelled kept in chains until the judgment of the great day. I'm aware of the soul sleep false doctrine from men that you believe, which wrongly thinks the idea of a 'spirit' always means an angel or demon, which simply is not true per Scripture.
 

Davy

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As I quoted, Paul said that if there is no resurrection "Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Corinthians 15:18). So those who are "asleep" are perished (Greek word apollumi, meaning destroyed), so they can't be alive and conscious waiting in heaven (or a prison or anywhere else).

And Apostle Paul was very correct; it's simply that you don't understand what he was talking about with that perish idea. Why is it you don't realize that IF... our spirit-soul is a material thing that dies with our flesh body, THAT is actually saying the person NO LONGER EXISTS? What would be left to be 'asleep' in that case?

That's what you are actually saying with the 'soul sleep' doctrine by man. Why? Because when our flesh dies it immediately begins decaying and going back to the dust where God took it from. And IF... God created our spirit-soul from that dust also, then it means decay back to the earthly elements also, which is NOT true! But the devil certainly wants the deceived to believe the soul-spirit decays in the earth.

You simply fail to understand about the 2 separate dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. You don't understand the difference between material matter and Spirit. Nor do you understand the Biblical idea of the word "asleep" applied to those in Christ who have died.
 

keithr

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What I see when He told His disciples that Lazarus was only 'asleep' is a pointing to the existence of one's spirit-soul separate from dead flesh. And when His disciples were not going to understand that point, that is when Jesus finally told them that Lazarus was dead. But of course the truly 'main' purpose of the miracle was to reveal that flesh death is only a thing of this present world, and that is it not the end of life for the spirit-soul. Thus Jesus was good to us by giving us His Book of Revelation where He gave more detail on that very point, showing us truly when death of the spirit-soul will be, i.e., in the future "lake of fire" event after the "thousand years" of Revelation 20. Until then, none of the wicked perish forever yet, not even Satan and his angels.
I'd agree with that, except that death is the end of conscious life (the only meaningful kind of life!). It's only not the end of our lives if God restores us to a conscious state again. As you say, the true end of life, with no hope of ever becoming conscious again, is when He utterly destroys our soul in the second death. It's like going into a coma - we may still technically exist in a recoverable state, but we could die without ever becoming conscious again, or we could recover and continue living our lives. God's promise is to resurrect most people and give them a final chance to gain everlasting life, and for the true Church that chance is during our current lives (so if we make our calling and election sure then we will be resurrected with immortal natures, and will live forever).

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus made it plain that our soul is NOT killed if our flesh body is killed. So that means our soul-spirit both CONTINUE to have life even after death of our flesh body.
But as I pointed out, Jesus also made it clear that when we die we enter an unconscious state. He calls it a sleep, and when he restored Lazarus to life he referred to it as wakening him from that sleep.

Isaiah 26:14 is about those 'dead' that shall not rise (not be resurrected at the resurrection). All born in the flesh are to have a resurrection on the day of Christ's future return, but not those hybrid giants, the Rephaim.
You are correct that Isaiah 26:14 is about the Rephaim (a hybrid race that was before the flood, and after the flood). However, note verse 19:

Isaiah 26:19 (WEB):
(19) Your dead shall live. My dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth will cast out the departed spirits.​

It says the dead, departed spirits are in the dust of the earth and that they will be cast out of the earth. So they are not in heaven, and they are not in a conscious state - it says "awake and sing".

That's just it, you are assuming... those "spirits in prison" are asleep, which is actually silly, since the Scripture says The Gospel was preached to them by Jesus
No, that's you assuming that the spriits in prison are the souls of dead people, rather than the angels that were imprisoned because of their sinning by leaving their spirit bodies/homes and taking on human form and corrupting the human race. As the Cambridge Bible Notes comments on 2 Peter 2:4 :

but cast them down to hell] Literally, cast them into Tartarus. The use of a word so closely bound up with the associations of Greek mythology is a phenomenon absolutely unique in the New Testament. A compound form of the same word had been used of Zeus as inflicting punishment on Cronos and the rebel Titans. (Apollodorus, Bibl. 1. 1.) Here it is used of the Almighty as punishing rebellious angels.​
 
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keithr

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But the devil certainly wants the deceived to believe the soul-spirit decays in the earth.
No, the devil wants to deceive people into believeing his first lie, that we won't die! You are believing that lie by believing that the dead continue living in heaven when they die. The Sciptures don't support that.

Hebrews 9:27
(27) And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,​
 

GRACE ambassador

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Nope!, C.R.Stam was a Hyper-Dispensationalist which also means a believer on the false Pre-trib rapture theory which John Darby in 1830's Great Britain taught. False prophets like C.R. Stam depends on you NOT doing that for yourself.
false accusations are Never needed - please STOP! IF you have "Scriptures Of God,"
then we are Very Interested!! Not interested in men's judgments of others, SINCE:

The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Alone IS "The RIGHTEOUS JUDGE" Of ALL!

We forgive you, and pray Christ Will Do The Same!!

GRACE And Peace...
 

GRACE ambassador

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Yes, from our perspective that is how it will seem. We die, which will mean we enter an unconscious state, like a deep sleep, and then we wake up, for some thousands of years later, and it will seem like we've just had a nap and woken up in our new spiritual bodies, and we will be in the company of Jesus and the other saints.
Precious friend, don't know why you all do not "start a Separate thread" about
"the state of the dead," since this thread is now derailed, :( being about:

"The DAY OF THE LORD! What Is It?"

Ok, my new thread = The STATE Of the dead
please move there, and I will ask the moderators IF
it is possible to move All of these conversations Over, Too...:(

GRACE And Peace...

btw: your avatar reminds me of: "Such a cute little baby face" ♫ :D
your picture, or your child?
 
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