The Day, The Month, the Hour and the year

[whirlwind]

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The first woe is the locust army (Islam) which was released at the fifth trump to swarm around the world, preparing to devour all in their path during their given five months to torment men, (not kill but torment), which begins when the sixth trump sounds. Then....

Revelation 9:12-15 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter. And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.​

These "four angels" were held back until those that should be sealed...were sealed [Rev.7:3]. Then they are released "to slay the third part of men." What is the hour, day, month and year? Does God tell us?

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.​

I believe the time is here. Could I be misreading the Scriptures? Certainly, but what I see follows:


When does the sixth trumpet sound? And, what happens?


Hour

Exodus 12:23,29 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. (29) And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.​

Day and Month

Genesis 7:10-12 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.​

The second month is the Hebrew Lyar, 17th day. This is our May 21.
Year

1 Kings 6:38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.​

The house was finished in the eleveth year...the children of God were sealed, the tribulation could begin. 2011?

Revelation 9:16-17 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.​

The army of the horsemen are like swarms of locusts...they are the locusts. Who are the "horsemen," those that lead the horses? The fallen angels? They are here to deceive, to spiritually kill. Be prepared for what comes from "their mouths," which is great deception:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.​

9:18-19 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.​

Then we have the third woe.....

10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.​

Does the five month tribulation begin at midnight, May 21, 2011?



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[tomwebster]

....

Does the five month tribulation begin at midnight, May 21, 2011?

NO! The trumps have not started to sound yet.

 

[whirlwind]

NO! The trumps have not started to sound yet.

We disagree. I believe six trumps have sounded.


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[veteran]

whirlwind, considering what you've written...

Why do you firstly point to Islam as the locust army when you later point to the locust army as fallen angels coming to do spiritual deception? Do you believe false messiah is going to proclaim Islam over all other religions? I don't see that, but I do see false messiah as religious head over all religion on earth when he comes. That may... be a big pointer as to what time we're in. Today's religions are still at war against each other, and haven't yet been completely joined under one religious head, like a false messiah.

I see the 5th trumpet descriptions of the locust army pointing to the working of the beast system gaining power over all nations (just like the Book of Joel shows, which is where the locust army idea originates).

I definitely agree the 6th trumpet is their real loosing on earth, to include Satan's host of false priests as those horsemen, linked with Rev.12:7-9 timing. That has yet to occur.

I also think right now, we are still in the time of God's sealing of His servants in prep for the tribulation. So that five months time of stinging couldn't be here yet today, for it represents the peak time of deception, requiring the presence of you know who on earth. Has the deception started yet though with the 5th trumpet? I believe in part, maybe.

If your timing about May is correct, then we should see the real peace pact for Jerusalem being made before this month is over. I'm not certain whether false messiah will be revealed to the world for that peace pact yet, but later. Thus, I'm not certain the birth pangs are strong enough yet.

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind, considering what you've written...

Why do you firstly point to Islam as the locust army when you later point to the locust army as fallen angels coming to do spiritual deception? Do you believe false messiah is going to proclaim Islam over all other religions? I don't see that, but I do see false messiah as religious head over all religion on earth when he comes. That may... be a big pointer as to what time we're in. Today's religions are still at war against each other, and haven't yet been completely joined under one religious head, like a false messiah.

Hi Veteran, Sorry this is such a late reply....I'm afraid I missed your response but better late than never.


I see Islam as the locust army but not as the fallen angels. Islam are the soldiers, the horses...the army of the horsemen. We see the horses, the horsemen (those that sat on them) and the "heads of the horses." Those heads are their spiritual leaders, the heads of the muslim faith....Mufti, Ayatollah, etc. Those urging them on, leading them on their rampage to devour everything in their paths.

Revelation 9:16-17 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. ​

I see the horses as the armies of Islam. The heads of the horses are their spiritual leaders. But, we also have those that "sat on them." I believe the Kenites are...the horsemen. Who are they for I believe they work behind the scenes putting the plans into action, the kingmakers. Under the guise of peace they play factions against each other as they control armies, money and power or run our country as unelected tzars. I thought the horsemen might be the fallen angels and...prehaps they are, working with the Kenites but they are also to replace the kings of the earth (those kings are being toppled today throughout the middle east.)

I see the 5th trumpet descriptions of the locust army pointing to the working of the beast system gaining power over all nations (just like the Book of Joel shows, which is where the locust army idea originates).

I definitely agree the 6th trumpet is their real loosing on earth, to include Satan's host of false priests as those horsemen, linked with Rev.12:7-9 timing. That has yet to occur.

Why do you think this has "yet to occur?" :huh:

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10:18-19 And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.​

I also think right now, we are still in the time of God's sealing of His servants in prep for the tribulation. So that five months time of stinging couldn't be here yet today, for it represents the peak time of deception, requiring the presence of you know who on earth. Has the deception started yet though with the 5th trumpet? I believe in part, maybe.

I don't know Veteran. Looking around today...I think all are on board that are going on board, at least the firstfruits. There will be more but they call for the Lord during the tribulation.

The five months isn't just a time of deception. I think the stinging is what is going on in the Middle East today. That has a domino effect in that it makes the price of oil rise drastically and with that food and just about EVERYTHING else....we are all being stung!

If your timing about May is correct, then we should see the real peace pact for Jerusalem being made before this month is over. I'm not certain whether false messiah will be revealed to the world for that peace pact yet, but later. Thus, I'm not certain the birth pangs are strong enough yet.

The flood is on the earth for forty days and forty nights having begun, I believe, May 21. That forty day period of probation is soon to end but the night/darkness continues. Then, the waters increase greatly.....

Genesis 7:17-19,24 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (24) And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.​

The waters (from the mouth of the dragon and the mouth of the serpent) are two different things. The waters are floods of ungodly men as well as a flood of deception.

Psalm 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.​

As for a "real peace pact" I don't know if we'll see that or not. I think it's all talk, deception...said in order to destroy God's people. Peace for the Palestinians that throws the world into turmoil. The "Freedom Flotilla" is soon to sail...filled with Code Pink, liberals, marxists, etc. all intent on saving the world with their ideas of peace.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.​

I think the transgressors are full today. I think we see the king/president standing today. By his talk of peace for the Palestinians...many shall be destroyed.

Am I positive this is it, this is the time? No, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck then......maybe it is a duck.



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[veteran]

Why do you think this has "yet to occur?" :huh:

Revelation 12:7-9 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10:18-19 And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.​

​

That Rev.12:7 forward event is about Dan.12:1 when Michael will cast the devil and his angels to this earth. It's linked with the time tribulation upon the saints in Rev.12:7 forward. That's what will begin the dragon's 42 month reign on earth; it's what starts the tribulation upon the saints. The Rev.12:3-4 verses was the time of Satan's original rebellion and fall from heaven. Note a beast system is given along with the timing of that Rev.12:3-4 Scripture. We're supposed to recognize his beast kingdom of old had only seven crowns, vs. the one given in chapter 13:1 that is to have ten crowns for the last days.

I don't know Veteran. Looking around today...I think all are on board that are going on board, at least the firstfruits. There will be more but they call for the Lord during the tribulation.

I know what you mean, but I don't think God is quite done with that sealing just yet today. I think people in many foreign nations outside the West are flocking to Christ and being sealed right now.

The five months isn't just a time of deception. I think the stinging is what is going on in the Middle East today. That has a domino effect in that it makes the price of oil rise drastically and with that food and just about EVERYTHING else....we are all being stung!

Don't we have to stay within the parameters of the metaphor with that to first understand the Message, like the idea of the scorpion our Lord gave there in Rev.9? Don't you remember that He's not talking about a literal scorpion sting, but how the locusts sting 'as' a scorpion as metaphor? If they can only sting those that are not sealed with God's seal in the forehead, then God's sealing means protection against it. And what is God's sealing of His servants but understanding away from deception? That's why it is strongly pointing to that scorpion sting as deception, which is more strongly related with what comes out of those locust's mouth per the end of Rev.9. Words come out of one's mouth.

The flood is on the earth for forty days and forty nights having begun, I believe, May 21. That forty day period of probation is soon to end but the night/darkness continues. Then, the waters increase greatly.....

Genesis 7:17-19,24 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. (24) And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.​

The waters (from the mouth of the dragon and the mouth of the serpent) are two different things. The waters are floods of ungodly men as well as a flood of deception.

Psalm 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.​

​

That dragon is the same one as that old serpent per Rev.12:9. God also used that idea of the king of Assyria coming upon His people as a flood (see Isaiah). Per the old Hebrew calendar reckoning, 150 days equals a period of five months.

As for a "real peace pact" I don't know if we'll see that or not. I think it's all talk, deception...said in order to destroy God's people. Peace for the Palestinians that throws the world into turmoil. The "Freedom Flotilla" is soon to sail...filled with Code Pink, liberals, marxists, etc. all intent on saving the world with their ideas of peace.

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:

Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.​

I think the transgressors are full today. I think we see the king/president standing today. By his talk of peace for the Palestinians...many shall be destroyed.

Am I positive this is it, this is the time? No, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck then......maybe it is a duck.

I believe there will be a final peace pact made, like Dan.11:23 reveals. I think it will allow the start of the building of the temple in Jerusalem for sacrifices to start up again. But I don't think the pseudo-Christ will be presented to the world at that time just yet, not until it's time for him being presented as a replacement for those sacrifices.

 

[whirlwind]

[/indent]
That Rev.12:7 forward event is about Dan.12:1 when Michael will cast the devil and his angels to this earth. It's linked with the time tribulation upon the saints in Rev.12:7 forward. That's what will begin the dragon's 42 month reign on earth; it's what starts the tribulation upon the saints. The Rev.12:3-4 verses was the time of Satan's original rebellion and fall from heaven. Note a beast system is given along with the timing of that Rev.12:3-4 Scripture. We're supposed to recognize his beast kingdom of old had only seven crowns, vs. the one given in chapter 13:1 that is to have ten crowns for the last days.

When Michael stands it is the time of great trouble but why do you see it as when the devil and his angels are cast to earth? From the following it appears they are already busy on earth....the tribulation is already underway.


Daniel 11:42-45, 12:1 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I know what you mean, but I don't think God is quite done with that sealing just yet today. I think people in many foreign nations outside the West are flocking to Christ and being sealed right now.




Don't we have to stay within the parameters of the metaphor with that to first understand the Message, like the idea of the scorpion our Lord gave there in Rev.9? Don't you remember that He's not talking about a literal scorpion sting, but how the locusts sting 'as' a scorpion as metaphor? If they can only sting those that are not sealed with God's seal in the forehead, then God's sealing means protection against it. And what is God's sealing of His servants but understanding away from deception? That's why it is strongly pointing to that scorpion sting as deception, which is more strongly related with what comes out of those locust's mouth per the end of Rev.9. Words come out of one's mouth.

Those that are sealed are protected for we prepared for this time. We watched and by faith, as did Noah....prepared our arks. It takes the poison out of their sting. And, we are no longer of the world, craving worldly things.

There are two types of floods...people and words. One comes from the mouth of the serpent and the other from the mouth of the dragon. One spits out poisonous words that deceive while the other controls powers, armies, politics, people.

[/indent]That dragon is the same one as that old serpent per Rev.12:9. God also used that idea of the king of Assyria coming upon His people as a flood (see Isaiah). Per the old Hebrew calendar reckoning, 150 days equals a period of five months.

Yes, I know five months and 150 days are the same. The dragon and serpent are both of the same beast and have different roles.

I believe there will be a final peace pact made, like Dan.11:23 reveals. I think it will allow the start of the building of the temple in Jerusalem for sacrifices to start up again. But I don't think the pseudo-Christ will be presented to the world at that time just yet, not until it's time for him being presented as a replacement for those sacrifices.

The league that will be made (in Daniel) may or may not be a peace pact but I don't think there will ever be a start to the building of the temple.



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[veteran]

When Michael stands it is the time of great trouble but why do you see it as when the devil and his angels are cast to earth? From the following it appears they are already busy on earth....the tribulation is already underway.

Daniel 11:42-45, 12:1 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

You do realize that part in red is Dan.12:1, which starts a different focus on those events?

The full time of tribulation is indeed to be that final "one week" of the prophecy. It's two 1260 periods. It begins with that "league" of Dan.11:23, but the abomination of desolation isn't setup yet at that time, not until the middle of that final "one week" of Dan.9:27. The middle of the 'one week' is when the abomination idol to the beast is setup requiring all to bow in false worship to it, which is when the real timing of persecution of the saints will start. That's the latter 1260 days period, the 42 months the dragon is given power over the saints per Rev.13.

The act of Michael standing up per Dan.12:1 is about the Rev.12:7 war in heaven. That's pointing to the start of the final "one week" (two 1260 day periods), or to the middle of the final "one week" when the Antichrist will place the abomination idol. Take your pick. (I still haven't decided which in final).

Those that are sealed are protected for we prepared for this time. We watched and by faith, as did Noah....prepared our arks. It takes the poison out of their sting. And, we are no longer of the world, craving worldly things.

I agree.

There are two types of floods...people and words. One comes from the mouth of the serpent and the other from the mouth of the dragon. One spits out poisonous words that deceive while the other controls powers, armies, politics, people.

Look at Rev.12:9. The 'dragon' and 'that old serpent' is the same entity. They're just different titles for the same entity, the devil.

What you may be confusing is the "beast" metaphor as to how our Lord applied it in Rev.13 & 17. Revelation 13 reveals a beast system, and then a beast entity. One is a world beast kingdom, like those of Dan.7, and the other is the Antichrist. John is given a vision of two separate 'beasts' in that Rev.13 chapter. It's important to distinguish the two. It's not really that difficult, for at Rev.13:11 John was shown "another beast" with two horns 'as' a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. One beast comes up out of the 'sea', but the "another beast" comes up out of the earth.

The flood of waters of Rev.12 coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and serpent, is coming from the same entity, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward. But why did our Lord reveal that using those two terms 'serpent' and 'dragon'? I believe it was so we would be sure to know just who He was talking about, i.e., the devil. For in Rev.12:9, both of those are titles for Satan.

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

Yes, I know five months and 150 days are the same. The dragon and serpent are both of the same beast and have different roles.

It's really only about a certain one, the devil himself. The devil is the false prophet mentioned later too. He is coming in the role as false prophet, and as the pseudo-messiah. Our Lord Jesus was called a Prophet also, first in OT Scripture. The devil has many titles, so we shouldn't be confused about that.

The league that will be made (in Daniel) may or may not be a peace pact but I don't think there will ever be a start to the building of the temple.

The first part of the Rev.11 Scripture is pointing to a temple on earth. It is associated with the timing of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel which our Lord Jesus quoted specifically involves the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple for false worship. Our Lord Jesus declared that, Daniel was shown it, and Apostle Paul also warned about it in 2 Thess.2:4. Thus I fail to see how it cannot be built, for those events of the prophecy would fall otherwise.

 

[whirlwind]

Daniel 11:42-45, 12:1 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



You do realize that part in red is Dan.12:1, which starts a different focus on those events?

Yes, but that is my point. Egypt (as has already happened) falls...Libya and Ethiopia are falling today. If those are signs of Satan working then he is already here. Is it when he plants his tabernacles that Michael stands and "the time of trouble" has begun. When exactly is THE time of trouble when Michael stands? Is it the five months, the time preceeding that.....or is it Satan's "hour of temptation?" I don't know but I believe the time of trouble, when Michael stands, is before the five months...which sets the five months of tribulation into operation.

I believe when Michael stands refers to our time of being sealed...preparing us for the time of trouble. I base that on, "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain." The tabernacles of Satan's palace are his henchmen, his kings. Our tabernacles are our bodies....

2 Peter 1:13-14 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.​

So, the tabernacles of Satan's palace are his royal men of importance...perhaps of his blood line the Kenites or his fallen angel kings. Where are they planted? "Between the seas in the glorious holy mountain." What does America sit between? Who sits on the throne of America today with all his nasty, marxist, communistic, socialist advisors? Is he Satan? No, but he sure works for him.

Revelation 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

17:12-15 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.​

Are those events what is presently happening? The Arab Spring. Have the five earthly kings fallen and are or are about to be replaced by the supernatural kings?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

Everything is in place, operating and, as shown in the account of Noah...greatly increasing as the five months goes on. Satan makes his appearance in the "one hour." We dwell in heaven for we are on the ark therefore...we are kept from the hour of temptation that those who "dwell upon the earth" will experience. But, I believe that is the time of Satan's actual appearance when he will pretend to be Christ. It isn't a literal hour but it isn't the whole five months. Or...so I believe. :)

The full time of tribulation is indeed to be that final "one week" of the prophecy. It's two 1260 periods. It begins with that "league" of Dan.11:23, but the abomination of desolation isn't setup yet at that time, not until the middle of that final "one week" of Dan.9:27. The middle of the 'one week' is when the abomination idol to the beast is setup requiring all to bow in false worship to it, which is when the real timing of persecution of the saints will start. That's the latter 1260 days period, the 42 months the dragon is given power over the saints per Rev.13.

The act of Michael standing up per Dan.12:1 is about the Rev.12:7 war in heaven. That's pointing to the start of the final "one week" (two 1260 day periods), or to the middle of the final "one week" when the Antichrist will place the abomination idol. Take your pick. (I still haven't decided which in final).

I believe the final week of the 70 weeks is the "hour of temptation." That is when he is here for all to see.

When Michael stands and there is the war in heaven...what is happening, where is it happening and when?

Revelation 12:7-12 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
​

My belief is that the war in heaven is the battle in God's children. Our battle to defeat Satan's deception within ourselves. Michael stands for us, giving us truth and we cast out Satan...then we become of His Kingdom. (But, I will say...this is something I am not at all sure of...still a work in progress.)

I agree.



Look at Rev.12:9. The 'dragon' and 'that old serpent' is the same entity. They're just different titles for the same entity, the devil.

What you may be confusing is the "beast" metaphor as to how our Lord applied it in Rev.13 & 17. Revelation 13 reveals a beast system, and then a beast entity. One is a world beast kingdom, like those of Dan.7, and the other is the Antichrist. John is given a vision of two separate 'beasts' in that Rev.13 chapter. It's important to distinguish the two. It's not really that difficult, for at Rev.13:11 John was shown "another beast" with two horns 'as' a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. One beast comes up out of the 'sea', but the "another beast" comes up out of the earth.

The flood of waters of Rev.12 coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and serpent, is coming from the same entity, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward. But why did our Lord reveal that using those two terms 'serpent' and 'dragon'? I believe it was so we would be sure to know just who He was talking about, i.e., the devil. For in Rev.12:9, both of those are titles for Satan.

I

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I see the reason both titles, serpent and dragon, were used is that they play different roles...both are of the same entity but they attack from different directions. Those of the serpent as well as those of the dragon all bow to their ruler...the great deceiver.

It's really only about a certain one, the devil himself. The devil is the false prophet mentioned later too. He is coming in the role as false prophet, and as the pseudo-messiah. Our Lord Jesus was called a Prophet also, first in OT Scripture. The devil has many titles, so we shouldn't be confused about that.

I agree

The first part of the Rev.11 Scripture is pointing to a temple on earth. It is associated with the timing of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem. The "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel which our Lord Jesus quoted specifically involves the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple for false worship. Our Lord Jesus declared that, Daniel was shown it, and Apostle Paul also warned about it in 2 Thess.2:4. Thus I fail to see how it cannot be built, for those events of the prophecy would fall otherwise.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Knowing that we are the temple of God what does this passage mean.....​

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I believe it means that we ourselves are the man of sin that that sits in His temple feeling so holy and righteous. There is no room for Christ in us until we fall away...revealing our own carnal nature, our own ego.​

.

 

[veteran]

Yes, but that is my point. Egypt (as has already happened) falls...Libya and Ethiopia are falling today. If those are signs of Satan working then he is already here. Is it when he plants his tabernacles that Michael stands and "the time of trouble" has begun. When exactly is THE time of trouble when Michael stands? Is it the five months, the time preceeding that.....or is it Satan's "hour of temptation?" I don't know but I believe the time of trouble, when Michael stands, is before the five months...which sets the five months of tribulation into operation.

Well, those Dan.11 events certainly can serve as a multiple fulfillment pattern, especially since Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. some of those very things. But we won't actually know when the dragon is here until at minimum, the "league" of Dan.11:23 is made. We've seen many attempts with that league (peace pact for Jerusalem) already, but none of them have been fruitful as of yet.

I believe the "five months" is separate from the dragon's casting out time. The five months represents the actual time of spiritual stinging upon those not sealed with God's sealing, after... the abomination idol is set in place. It points to the peak time of the deception, since Noah's flood is symbolically associated with the flood out of the serpent's mouth. That's the "hour of temptation" upon the deceived. We're still in preparation time, like when Noah and his family were still building the ark.

I believe when Michael stands refers to our time of being sealed...preparing us for the time of trouble. I base that on, "he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain." The tabernacles of Satan's palace are his henchmen, his kings. Our tabernacles are our bodies....

Link it with Dan.12:1 when Michael stands up. That begins the tribulation time our Lord Jesus warned us of. He linked it with the time of the "abomination of desolation", and the coming "false Christs" (pseudo-Christ). That would point to the image of the beast idol being setup with the dragon here de facto. That's what "the tabernacles of his palace" points to, his sitting in the temple to show himself as God. The prophecy depends on another temple being built in Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

17:12-15 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

​

Are those events what is presently happening? The Arab Spring. Have the five earthly kings fallen and are or are about to be replaced by the supernatural kings?

Not yet. The sixth beast king was in Apostle John's days. We await the seventh. The eighth is at the end of Christ's future thousand years. Notice those 'ten kings' won't receive power until the beast king arrives (the Antichrist). That's why our Lord showed those ten kings will rule "one hour" WITH the beast (i.e., beast king, the seventh, the dragon, i.e., Satan). That "one hour" represents the tribulation time. We're not there yet.

Those waters is about Christ's description about the FIRST beast of Rev.13:1-2, which is of what? A beast 'kingdom', like the examples of Dan.7 where Rev.13:2 is pulling from with those animal symbols. Remember, there's 2 different 'beasts' given in Rev.13. In Rev.17 the 'beast' symbol is ALSO applied to both the first beast, and the another 2nd beast. We have to pay attention when the symbol changes there. When it's speaking of those eight kings like "the beast that was...", those represent the 'beast king' idea, the "another beast" entity of Rev.13:11 forward.

Everything is in place, operating and, as shown in the account of Noah...greatly increasing as the five months goes on. Satan makes his appearance in the "one hour." We dwell in heaven for we are on the ark therefore...we are kept from the hour of temptation that those who "dwell upon the earth" will experience. But, I believe that is the time of Satan's actual appearance when he will pretend to be Christ. It isn't a literal hour but it isn't the whole five months. Or...so I believe. :)

I believe that five months will be exactly when he will appear as false messiah, and command all to bow to him in worship.

I believe the final week of the 70 weeks is the "hour of temptation." That is when he is here for all to see.

When Michael stands and there is the war in heaven...what is happening, where is it happening and when?

Revelation 12:7-12 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
​

My belief is that the war in heaven is the battle in God's children. Our battle to defeat Satan's deception within ourselves. Michael stands for us, giving us truth and we cast out Satan...then we become of His Kingdom. (But, I will say...this is something I am not at all sure of...still a work in progress.)

I believe that war in Heaven is literal. It's about a war in the heavenly dimension, for Satan's abode is in the heavenly dimension also. His casting down to the earth per that is about his casting OUT of the heavenly dimension, to appear on earth in OUR earthly dimension. That's the only way the deceived would be fooled by the great signs and wonders he is to do, in the sight of men per Rev.13. Michael will literally cast him and his angels down to this earth, out of the heavenly dimension.

I see the reason both titles, serpent and dragon, were used is that they play different roles...both are of the same entity but they attack from different directions. Those of the serpent as well as those of the dragon all bow to their ruler...the great deceiver.

Then you might consider going back to the Old Testament to distinguish the difference between those two titles, one in relation to God's Garden in Adam and Eve's time, and the other in relation to... another time. Both being mentioned by our Lord in Rev.12 points to both rolled into one for the end. (compare 'prince of Tyrus' with 'king of Tyrus', if you know what I mean)

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.


1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Knowing that we are the temple of God what does this passage mean.....​

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I believe it means that we ourselves are the man of sin that that sits in His temple feeling so holy and righteous. There is no room for Christ in us until we fall away...revealing our own carnal nature, our own ego.​

I know that idea that we are the temple is brought up when speaking of that Rev.11:1-2, and the 2 Thess.2:4 Scripture, however...

Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
(KJV)

The spiritual Temple cannot... be corrupted by a false one sitting in it, which is the subject of 2 Thess.2, and Rev.11:1-2. John is given a comparison by being told to go 'measure' it, like Ezekiel was in Ezek.40 forward. But John is given "a reed like unto a rod" to measure it with. Ezekiel was given only shown a 'reed' for measuring.

John's reed that was likened to a rod points to judgment, God's rod of judgment. That's what the idea of 'measuring' there is about...

Ezek 43:10
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
(KJV)

Isa 28:16-17
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
(KJV)

A plummet is a plumb-bob. It's a construction measuring tool with a pointed weight on the end of a line. When it is held upright it gauges whether a board is perfectly straight upright. That's the sense God is telling John in Rev.11:1-2, go 'measure' that temple he sees in the vision, and determine whether or not it is upright per the True Pattern of God's spiritual Temple with Christ as The Chief Cornerstone.

There's a problem with that temple John was told to go measure, because he's told to disregard the court without, for it's given for the Gentiles to tread for 42 months. That means unbelieving Gentiles treading the courts for 42 months with the dragon of Rev.13. That is not the True Temple he sees there. Then immediately after that verse we're given the prophecy of God's two witnesses in Jerusalem, which should by then get our attention that something's not right there.

 

[avoice]

Veteran
Would you share which scripture and your thought on why you think we must have two full 1260 days
I am familar with the topic and I understand there must first be the seven year covenaunt
I believe that to happen first we then must get to midweek for the abomination that gives us our 42 months

Why do you think we need the full second 1260 days just curious Im still on the fence about this

 

[veteran]

Veteran
Would you share which scripture and your thought on why you think we must have two full 1260 days
I am familar with the topic and I understand there must first be the seven year covenaunt
I believe that to happen first we then must get to midweek for the abomination that gives us our 42 months

Why do you think we need the full second 1260 days just curious Im still on the fence about this

I did not mean to infer a literal 1260 days after that "midweek" you speak of. I mentioned the 1260 days, or 42 months, because that's the Scripture reference. I believe it very possible that 1260 days past the midweek could be shortened per what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

If that be true, that the latter half has been shortened to five months, then we need to explain why our Lord Jesus still gave those 42 months or 1260 days periods later through John in Revelation. It's possible that He did that to maintain the times and seasons, and to draw away those not given to understand the last days.

 

[avoice]

I did not mean to infer a literal 1260 days after that "midweek" you speak of. I mentioned the 1260 days, or 42 months, because that's the Scripture reference. I believe it very possible that 1260 days past the midweek could be shortened per what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

If that be true, that the latter half has been shortened to five months, then we need to explain why our Lord Jesus still gave those 42 months or 1260 days periods later through John in Revelation. It's possible that He did that to maintain the times and seasons, and to draw away those not given to understand the last days.

Agree totally that exactly where I am at on the subject
thanks for the reply