The doctrine of least resistance

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marks

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Actually that is only a half-truth. The real Christian goes the extra mile to enter INTO Christ.

The real Christian IS in Chirst.

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

"If any be in Christ, he is a new creature."

Being born again is to be "in Christ".

Romans 6 describes this in greater detail.

I don't see that we can bootstrap ourselves "into Christ", as it this would make us "more of a Christian". I see it like being pregnant. There is no, half-pregnant. Neither is there a "partial Christian".

Much love!
Mark
 
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marks

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The true sabbath is to rest from the dead works of our own thoughts and ideas ...and opinions.

I would say the true Sabbath is to rest from our works - the idea that there is something that WE do to improve our standing with God.

Much love!
mark
 
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stunnedbygrace

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The Spirit leapt up and down in me the whole time I read your thread here, brother. And you may not have intended it, but you gave me some very practical help. Thank you.
 
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Enoch111

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I suppose that is why most will take the wide road :(
The wide road is for the unsaved. The ones who are truly saved must have either heard or read that those who are disciples of Christ must take up their cross and follow him, and that all who are saved must become disciples. That says it all. Plus Paul plainly told Christians that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Everyone with access to the Bible can read these things plainly.
 
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Nancy

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The wide road is for the unsaved. The ones who are truly saved must have either heard or read that those who are disciples of Christ must take up their cross and follow him, and that all who are saved must become disciples. That says it all. Plus Paul plainly told Christians that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Everyone with access to the Bible can read these things plainly.

Well, I should have said that is why most PEOPLE will choose the wide road rather than the only true way-Jesus and the narrow road.
 

Episkopos

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The real Christian IS in Chirst.

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

"If any be in Christ, he is a new creature."

Being born again is to be "in Christ".

Romans 6 describes this in greater detail.

I don't see that we can bootstrap ourselves "into Christ", as it this would make us "more of a Christian". I see it like being pregnant. There is no, half-pregnant. Neither is there a "partial Christian".

Much love!
Mark


You are speaking from a theoretical and non-biblical perspective. There are too many errors to address in your response.

The errors are in the false conclusions you are making.
 

Episkopos

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Many believe that the words "It is finished".... means that Jesus came to "fix" or rig the race so that certain people (church-goers) would be saved regardless of what they say or do based on partisanship to the "cause"...as if He was a respecter of persons.

The doctrine of least resistance puts all responsibility on God by refusing to be responsible for one's own actions.

The Holy Spirit actually makes us MORE responsible than non-believers for sin.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Actually that is only a half-truth. The real Christian goes the extra mile to enter INTO Christ.

The true sabbath is to rest from the dead works of our own thoughts and ideas ...and opinions. We are to draw life from above....not from our own humanity. THAT is a true follower of Christ who can say...I ONLY do what I see my Father doing.

I don't know how my thought will translate, because I don't know how many people were raised this way but...

A big part of the true Sabbath rest for me has been to forsake the useless way of life/ conversation I learned from my parents.

It wasn't always extremely overtly but I was taught that the way to do things was to do them in such a way that the unacceptable thing you were doing became "acceptable."

It was like...get even, but do it in a way society approves of, so you can't be caught. You can say: no one has caught me cheating.

It's passive-aggression, and I used to think it was only my family but I see it everywhere.

So we were taught to attack in a way that wasn't overt but was rather "mannered."

It's like Adam and eve, covering up what you're doing, hiding what you've done. And as long as the person you're "getting" can't prove your motives, its okay.

And here's the icing on the cake - you make sure there are witnesses when the person goes ballistic with anger over what you've done. That way, you look like an angel being attacked by an emotionally unhinged idiot.

So the person having a fit is more open and honest than you have been, yet the more open and honest person looks like the bad one. They usually can't even articulate what you did to them because you obfuscated everything so much. Heck, they sometimes don't even know what they did or said that got you fuming inside. It could be something they said weeks ago that they don't even remember.

It's the useless conversation we learned from our parents and society. And it ties in to what you said here about keeping the law outwardly, whitewashing the tomb so men approve of you.
 

Episkopos

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It is about our attitude. Why are we trying to get away with anything? Self-preservation is NOT the right path...it leads to death. Loving the truth means we let go of our best interests...of wanting to be right or win. Instead we should only want what the Lord wants.

It is very possible to have the truth and hold onto it...but in UN-righteousness. IOW having the wrong attitude. Using the truth to better our status in the world. Seeing godliness as gain for ourselves.

It has been said that the great shift in the modern church is going from "that convicts me"...to..."that offends me".

Christians are among the proudest people on earth....as well as the most humble. How many will say Lord, Lord, in vain?


It's not easy to leave behind what you have always known and always done. But that is the way of renewal. That's how the oil gets in the lamp. That is how we progress into life.

People tend to believe what they want to believe no matter how misguided. Just look at the carnal motives. Of course you have to be very honest with yourself to see the motive. You need to know yourself to a certain degree. Just remember that the mundane is comforting and soothing. What we have always done before seems like the only way of doing thing.

When we consider that we ALL like sheep have gone astray. Or that ALL the virgins fall asleep (spiritually)...we can see that smugness is NOT the way to go. We need to encourage one another to remain humble and teachable. We are to exhort one another...in love....because we want 'US" to move on into life....together.
 

marks

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You are speaking from a theoretical and non-biblical perspective. There are too many errors to address in your response.

The errors are in the false conclusions you are making.

Hi episkopos, no response is neccesary, but there is no need to impugn my post, but without actual rebuttal.

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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It was like...get even, but do it in a way society approves of, so you can't be caught. You can say: no one has caught me cheating.

It's passive-aggression, and I used to think it was only my family but I see it everywhere.

So we were taught to attack in a way that wasn't overt but was rather "mannered."

It's like Adam and eve, covering up what you're doing, hiding what you've done. And as long as the person you're "getting" can't prove your motives, its okay.

And here's the icing on the cake - you make sure there are witnesses when the person goes ballistic with anger over what you've done. That way, you look like an angel being attacked by an emotionally unhinged idiot.

Hi Stunnedbygrace

In the extreme form, this manifests in Narcisistic Personality Disorder.

In it's lessor forms, I see it a lot on forums.

You remind me of what Paul said,

"But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." (2 Corinthians 4:2)

I think we should be clear in what we are saying, and not trying to subvert discussion by these other passive agressive ways.

Much love!
Mark
 

farouk

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The real Christian IS in Chirst.

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

"If any be in Christ, he is a new creature."

Being born again is to be "in Christ".

Romans 6 describes this in greater detail.

I don't see that we can bootstrap ourselves "into Christ", as it this would make us "more of a Christian". I see it like being pregnant. There is no, half-pregnant. Neither is there a "partial Christian".

Much love!
Mark
It's either all of grace, or not at all (Ephesians 2.8-9).
 
B

brakelite

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The true sabbath is to rest from the dead works of our own thoughts and ideas ...and opinions.
While I agree that there is an aspect to rest that includes the rejection of any attempt to live in a manner by which we hope to impress God or others, thus earning their approval as if what we do is a result of our own initiative, and in extreme cases thinking that by doing so we have even become good enough to deserve salvation.......

And it ties in to what you said here about keeping the law outwardly, whitewashing the tomb so men approve of you
..... Law keeping, and I speak specifically of observing the seventh day Sabbath, does not have to be classified as an outward attempt to righteousness to cover an inward lack thereof. You do a grave disservice to millions of Christians worldwide who keep God's commandments as a direct result of the positive sanctifying power of the holy Spirit of the Lawgiver abiding within them.
In fact, I would suggest that there are no Christians anywhere who keep the 7th day Sabbath in order to make some sort of impression ... Or to hide some form of inward hypocricy. The doctrine of least resistance that episkipos refers to would far more appropriately be attached to Sunday keeping... The popular, less controversial, traditional and more acceptable road to walk down if someone is wanting to look like a Christian as opposed to actually being one.
 

stunnedbygrace

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While I agree that there is an aspect to rest that includes the rejection of any attempt to live in a manner by which we hope to impress God or others, thus earning their approval as if what we do is a result of our own initiative, and in extreme cases thinking that by doing so we have even become good enough to deserve salvation.......


..... Law keeping, and I speak specifically of observing the seventh day Sabbath, does not have to be classified as an outward attempt to righteousness to cover an inward lack thereof. You do a grave disservice to millions of Christians worldwide who keep God's commandments as a direct result of the positive sanctifying power of the holy Spirit of the Lawgiver abiding within them.
In fact, I would suggest that there are no Christians anywhere who keep the 7th day Sabbath in order to make some sort of impression ... Or to hide some form of inward hypocricy. The doctrine of least resistance that episkipos refers to would far more appropriately be attached to Sunday keeping... The popular, less controversial, traditional and more acceptable road to walk down if someone is wanting to look like a Christian as opposed to actually being one.

I disagree that my post did a disservice to millions of christians. I gave an example of how men whitewash their tombs through "manners." You took it as some sort of attack on yourself and millions of other Christians because you esteem one day as more important than others.

Would you like for me to say instead that no men ever whitewash?

Sorry, but I think you've been a bit ridiculous here. It's so important to you that you take a valid post as an attack on you and turn everything into the same broken record. I wasn't even talking about worship, but that's what you got from my post because of your indoctrination.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And by the way, I could go to church services every Saturday without the power of the Holy Spirit. It would be quite easy.
 
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brakelite

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I disagree that my post did a disservice to millions of christians. I gave an example of how men whitewash their tombs through "manners." You took it as some sort of attack on yourself and millions of other Christians because you esteem one day as more important than others.
The theme of the conversation was what epi stated as 'the true sabbath'. Meaning that resting in Christ was the only true alternative to honoring the commandment. So it wasn't me whistling dixie and dragging something up our of thin air because of any paranoia on my part.
Also, it isn't me either who is 'esteeming one day as being more important than others'. If you don't think God esteems it more, and did so a long long time before me or you appeared on the scene, you haven't been reading your Bible.
Would you like for me to say instead that no men ever whitewash?
Oh men whitewash absolutely...
I wasn't even talking about worship, but that's what you got from my post because of your indoctrination.
and it isn't just about worship...
And by the way, I could go to church services every Saturday without the power of the Holy Spirit. It would be quite easy.
nor is it about 'going to church services'. It is about keeping God's commandments. And if you can do that, keep the 4th commandment, or any commandment, without the power of the holy Spirit you'd be the first. The commandment doesn't say anything about going to a church service...it says "keep the Sabbath holy". How you do that is between you and God. It may include attending communal worship (a holy convocation) or it may involve your assisting a neighbour to do something he otherwise is physically unable to do because of an emergency (like helping him pull his cow out of the drain). Or it may simply be to stay home with your family and study and pray together.
All God asks is for us to keep His day holy by not working at your personal secular employment for one day. Beyond that, is between you and the Lord. You'll work it out I'm sure...if you want to. But no, you are I believe a Calvinist. (My most humble apologies if I'm wrong.) You only are what God has made you right, and to go a step further and actually seek His kingdom in a deeper and more meaningful way, or to hunger and thirst for His righteousness is, according to you, an excuse to boast isn't it.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You are out of control.

some men have an understanding of the spirit of the law. They are free. You should let them be. They don't answer to you, or try to please you, or stand or fall before you.

As for me, I'm done. I won't play a part in helping you to turn this thread into another lawyerly mess.