The Ekklesia; called out ones; the Church

[Stumpmaster]

I agree with you SM, as far as there are those who implement a hierarchy in order to exalt themselves, in one manner or another.
But, that is so circumstantial and one-sided, that you sound like you just simply have an aversion to leadership?
You really sound one-sided?
My point is that, entirely discounting abuse, even in a small group, some sort of leadership is required as all cannot start discussing anything that they want, indiscriminately, without it requiring a moderator of some sort. Someone has to decide on the topic for the day, or settle a conflict of interest or opinion, or may a call on liturgy or whatever, ....
Simply that.
I have no idea what your apparent grievance is to that, without regressing into the elementary principle of, where there's power, there's a potential for tyranny and abuse?

Hi again DNB. I agree with your points that address the topic, but not those that address me personally. Rather than emote with the words grievance or aversion, it would be better to recognise that I am contending earnestly for the faith as per this verse from Jude.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I wonder how many assemblies consider themselves to be functioning according to New Testament Scripture but completely ignore or overrule 1 Corinthians 14:29-31 as follows, particularly verse 30:
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is seated, the first speaker should hold his peace.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

By prophet is simply meant "one who speaks forth in agreement with God's Word".

 

[DNB]

Hi again DNB. I agree with your points that address the topic, but not those that address me personally. Rather than emote with the words grievance or aversion, it would be better to recognise that I am contending earnestly for the faith as per this verse from Jude.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I wonder how many assemblies consider themselves to be functioning according to New Testament Scripture but completely ignore or overrule 1 Corinthians 14:29-31 as follows, particularly verse 30:
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is seated, the first speaker should hold his peace.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

By prophet is simply meant "one who speaks forth in agreement with God's Word".

We are all contending for the faith SM, obviously. One can tell by my initial post, that my sole intention was to offer insight, and compliment the OP. But, I'm sorry, I was convinced that you had a major problem with what I said, ...I don't think that anyone will disagree.
Which is absolutely fine, of course, and welcome, but, I just couldn't see your point outside of having a bias against leadership?? Which I profoundly disagree with, so I stated that accordingly.

...and even now, I still have no idea what point you are trying to make?
Are you categorically against leadership, or not? Or, just against abuse of power? I have no idea?
Even your last quote, which cited 1 Corinthians 14:29-31, I feel supports my position. Which is, a moderator is required. I do not believe that such a mixture of people, all at different levels of wisdom and faith, can govern themselves solely by their own understanding of Scripture. Unless the group is equally weighted, as far as acumen goes, someone has to, at least intermittently, conduct the gathering.

 

[Stumpmaster]

We are all contending for the faith SM, obviously. One can tell by my initial post, that my sole intention was to offer insight, and compliment the OP. But, I'm sorry, I was convinced that you had a major problem with what I said, ...I don't think that anyone will disagree.
Which is absolutely fine, of course, and welcome, but, I just couldn't see your point outside of having a bias against leadership?? Which I profoundly disagree with, so I stated that accordingly.

...and even now, I still have no idea what point you are trying to make?
Are you categorically against leadership, or not? Or, just against abuse of power? I have no idea?
Even your last quote, which cited 1 Corinthians 14:29-31, I feel supports my position. Which is, a moderator is required. I do not believe that such a mixture of people, all at different levels of wisdom and faith, can govern themselves solely by their own understanding of Scripture. Unless the group is equally weighted, as far as acumen goes, someone has to, at least intermittently, conduct the gathering.

It is difficult for some who come to our gatherings to grasp the concept and practice of "simple fellowship" but those who do lose all desire to return to passive pewsitting and institutional programs.
The idea of like-minded Christians collectively regulating themselves to glorify God and provide mutual benefits to the body of Christ through the use of the giftings His grace provides is not some fantasy. It is a reality that has survived the test of time since the days following the ascension of Christ.
The program oriented people who have no experience of simple in-house fellowship generally take a few weeks to adjust to the spontaneous interaction and absence of any clergy-laity division, but those who continue to meet in this fashion find themselves being led by the Holy Spirit rather than by hireling shepherds who trample the pasture and mistreat the flock, as many confess to have experienced.
Was Jeremiah against leadership when he spoke these words:
Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

 

[marks]

By prophet is simply meant "one who speaks forth in agreement with God's Word".

Hi Stumpmaster,

I see the Biblical prophet as more than one who gives an affirmation of Scritpure. I understand the prophet to be one who speaks as moved by the Holy Spirit to speak God's word.

but those who continue to meet in this fashion find themselves being led by the Holy Spirit rather than by hireling shepherds who trample the pasture and mistreat the flock, as many confess to have experienced.

Yes, there is leadership abuse.

Let me as you . . . what is the purpose or role of "overseer"?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi again DNB. I agree with your points that address the topic, but not those that address me personally. Rather than emote with the words grievance or aversion, it would be better to recognise that I am contending earnestly for the faith as per this verse from Jude.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

I wonder how many assemblies consider themselves to be functioning according to New Testament Scripture but completely ignore or overrule 1 Corinthians 14:29-31 as follows, particularly verse 30:
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is seated, the first speaker should hold his peace.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

By prophet is simply meant "one who speaks forth in agreement with God's Word".

..agreement with God's heart.

I think a lot of people are "gun shy" about leadership because of carnal men usurping power. But there is a big difference between order and control. In the institutions we see control. The people are seen as patients or clients. But in the organic ekklesia we see leadership making room for God and keeping order.

So the question is not IF there is leadership...but more..what kind? The Christian life is based on a living sacrifice and all leadership should be an example of that.

 

[Episkopos]

We are all contending for the faith SM, obviously. One can tell by my initial post, that my sole intention was to offer insight, and compliment the OP. But, I'm sorry, I was convinced that you had a major problem with what I said, ...I don't think that anyone will disagree.
Which is absolutely fine, of course, and welcome, but, I just couldn't see your point outside of having a bias against leadership?? Which I profoundly disagree with, so I stated that accordingly.

...and even now, I still have no idea what point you are trying to make?
Are you categorically against leadership, or not? Or, just against abuse of power? I have no idea?
Even your last quote, which cited 1 Corinthians 14:29-31, I feel supports my position. Which is, a moderator is required. I do not believe that such a mixture of people, all at different levels of wisdom and faith, can govern themselves solely by their own understanding of Scripture. Unless the group is equally weighted, as far as acumen goes, someone has to, at least intermittently, conduct the gathering.

Absolutely agree. Godly oversight is crucial for order and good direction. A good leader eschews religious posturing, titles, salaries, and really anything worldly or carnal in nature. People who have been abused by the system have a great difficulty with leadership issues thinking that everyone is exactly the same and all have the same amount of insight, experience or anointing. But such people have not speant much time in anything close to a functioning Body life.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hi Stumpmaster,

I see the Biblical prophet as more than one who gives an affirmation of Scritpure. I understand the prophet to be one who speaks as moved by the Holy Spirit to speak God's word.


Yes, there is leadership abuse.

Let me as you . . . what is the purpose or role of "overseer"?

Much love!

Yes, thanks for your comments, marks. All good. As you rightly state a biblical prophet speaks as moved by the Holy Spirit, which means what is said ALWAYS agrees with God's Word...my summation.

Hallelujah. A hot button.
The biblical definition of an overseer as translated from the Greek word episkopē is as far removed from the archetypal "bishop" as the east is from the west, as these commentary quotes agree:

- regarding the word episkopē (1Tim3:1)
(4) It has now, as used by Episcopalians, a sense which is wholly unauthorized by the New Testament, and which, indeed, is entirely at variance with the usage there. To apply the term to a pretended superior order of clergy, as designating their special office, is wholly to depart from the use of the word as it occurs in the Bible.

A bishop is a Christian man of mature experience and understanding who assists in exercising godly care over the spiritual life of a local fellowship. He does not rule by lording it over God's heritage, but rather he leads by his spiritual example.

In the business I own I function as an overseer who must be diligent to care for both employees and clients in a supervisory capacity, visiting with them and attending to their expectations and welfare, and ensuring compliance with moral and civil laws.
I am blessed to have a similar function at various times in the local ekklesia in which I am a fellowlabourer with like-minded followers of Christ.

 

[marks]

The biblical definition of an overseer as translated from the Greek word episkopē is as far removed from the archetypal "bishop" as the east is from the west,

I'd say so!!

 

[DNB]

It is difficult for some who come to our gatherings to grasp the concept and practice of "simple fellowship" but those who do lose all desire to return to passive pewsitting and institutional programs.
The idea of like-minded Christians collectively regulating themselves to glorify God and provide mutual benefits to the body of Christ through the use of the giftings His grace provides is not some fantasy. It is a reality that has survived the test of time since the days following the ascension of Christ.
The program oriented people who have no experience of simple in-house fellowship generally take a few weeks to adjust to the spontaneous interaction and absence of any clergy-laity division, but those who continue to meet in this fashion find themselves being led by the Holy Spirit rather than by hireling shepherds who trample the pasture and mistreat the flock, as many confess to have experienced.
Was Jeremiah against leadership when he spoke these words:
Jer 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Gotcha, thank you, i see your point.
Agreed, it's exemplary that an informal or non-institutional type gathering can take place, remain orderly and efficient, productive and edifying, without the need of a regulator, or one to carry the burden of organizing each week's schedule.
Kudos to all involved in the gathering that you were referring to. If it ain't broke, then no need to fix it.
I just wanted to state that employing such a structure within any size gathering, doesn't necessarily mean that there's subordination or abuse.
There's an appropriate need, depending on the diversity of the crowd. It's not inherently a destructive form of organization.

Even Moses, upon Jethro's, his father-in-law, suggestion, had people to help him govern the Israelites in the desert.
The early Church nominated deacons to deal with disputes on lesser matters, that were not convenient for the Apostles to address.

Structure and organization is God given. It exists in all nature, even between human genders, and ages.
But, if a mature crowd can subsist together without enforcing a hierarchy, as they way that you described your gathering, then they already have the innate ability to remain focused, considerate and respectful. Case settled!

So, either with or without a formal or established leadership, the goal is to remain organized and structured.

 

[Episkopos]

More about oversight. The place of the overseer is in a spiritual place...not a physical one. It has to do with God's appointment and anointing.

Concerning disorder brought on by the immature or the rebellious.

An overseer needs to wait for the anointing to kick in...to wait until the Spirit prompts him what to say. Until then...the Spirit can work directly in the brother or sister that is offending the proper order of things. An overseer should allow for that time. IF that person isn't able to hear the Spirit...or is not willing to obey the Spirit....then the Spirit goes to the more mature brother....or overseer....and He speaks through that one. I find that God is more patient with people than people are with each other. So then a quick reaction is invariably the flesh.

This kind of functioning is seen by others as the proof of God's order and anointing.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Gotcha, thank you, i see your point.
Agreed, it's exemplary that an informal or non-institutional type gathering can take place, remain orderly and efficient, productive and edifying, without the need of a regulator, or one to carry the burden of organizing each week's schedule.
Kudos to all involved in the gathering that you were referring to. If it ain't broke, then no need to fix it.
I just wanted to state that employing such a structure within any size gathering, doesn't necessarily mean that there's subordination or abuse.
There's an appropriate need, depending on the diversity of the crowd. It's not inherently a destructive form of organization.

Even Moses, upon Jethro's, his father-in-law, suggestion, had people to help him govern the Israelites in the desert.
The early Church nominated deacons to deal with disputes on lesser matters, that were not convenient for the Apostles to address.

Structure and organization is God given. It exists in all nature, even between human genders, and ages.
But, if a mature crowd can subsist together without enforcing a hierarchy, as they way that you described your gathering, then they already have the innate ability to remain focused, considerate and respectful. Case settled!

So, either with or without a formal or established leadership, the goal is to remain organized and structured.

I like your example of Moses and the spirit on him being shared, DNB, and I expect you are familiar with the incident that follows the appointment of the seventy elders, whereby it is reported that two of them chosen (written), Eldad and Medad were not present in the tabernacle but out in the camp prophesying when the Spirit fell, and Joshua wanted this to be forbidden, but Moses rightly encourages such a thing.
Num 11:25-29
(25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
(26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
(27) And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
(28) And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
(29) And Moses said unto him, Do envy for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

 

[Stumpmaster]

More about oversight. The place of the overseer is in a spiritual place...not a physical one. It has to do with God's appointment and anointing.

Concerning disorder brought on by the immature or the rebellious.

An overseer needs to wait for the anointing to kick in...to wait until the Spirit prompts him what to say. Until then...the Spirit can work directly in the brother or sister that is offending the proper order of things. An overseer should allow for that time. IF that person isn't able to hear the Spirit...or is not willing to obey the Spirit....then the Spirit goes to the more mature brother....or overseer....and He speaks through that one. I find that God is more patient with people than people are with each other. So then a quick reaction is invariably the flesh.

This kind of functioning is seen by others as the proof of God's order and anointing.

Yes, excellent exhortation, Episkopos. Striving in the flesh to force adherence to a particular set of protocols is a recipe for disaster. Receptivity to God's Will is a blessing He wants all of us to have, and every Christian is capable of exercising godly intuition and wisdom when they set aside their own agendas.

Jas 3:13-17
(13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
(14) But if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
(15) This wisdom descends not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
(16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

 

[Episkopos]

Concerning church order and guidance in spiritual things towards kingdom authority, unity and advancement.

There is strategy and then tactics to bring the plans to fruition. Strategically we have the bible. But the tactics must be by the Spirit. We are to be led by the Spirit. So every step must be inspired from above. The problems we see in the churches are from men trying to use human tactics to conquer spiritual ground. And that can never work.

 

[DNB]

I like your example of Moses and the spirit on him being shared, DNB, and I expect you are familiar with the incident that follows the appointment of the seventy elders, whereby it is reported that two of them chosen (written), Eldad and Medad were not present in the tabernacle but out in the camp prophesying when the Spirit fell, and Joshua wanted this to be forbidden, but Moses rightly encourages such a thing.
Num 11:25-29
(25) And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
(26) But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
(27) And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
(28) And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
(29) And Moses said unto him, Do envy for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

Yes, exactly along the same lines of men being appointed for special service, apart from the regular populace.
Thanks for the reminder, and expanding on the issue!

 

[Episkopos]

Hosea 5:15
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You 3 men have made this a very good thread!!

 

[Episkopos]

You 3 men have made this a very good thread!!

The ignore feature allows a person to dial out all that is superfluous and of nasty intent. Hey the net catches a lot of kinds of fish. (the kingdom net AND the internet) So we can begin sorting with the ignore feature.