The Fifth Trumpet Plague

[guysmith]

Revelation 9:1-4 states that the only ones which avoids the affects of
the Fifth Trumpet plague are those which have “the seal of God in their
foreheads.”


Revelation 9


1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that
had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft
of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the
Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and
sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And
out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that
of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm
the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not
have the seal of God on their foreheads.


In Revelation 7:1-4 we see that number of
those that are “sealed” in “the foreheads” are the “servants of our God” the
144K.


Revelation 7

144,000 Sealed

1 After this I
saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the
four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the
sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel
coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a
loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the
sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea
or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4 Then I heard the number of those who were
sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


This would suggest that the only believers that will be
alive, at the time of the fifth trumpet, are the 144K. If there were other believers alive at that
time, then they too would be inflicted by the fifth trumpet plague.


What are your thoughts?

 

[veteran]

The locusts of the Book of Joel is the subject of that 5th Trumpet. Per both Joel and Rev.9, we know those locusts are put for a certain group of men working upon the earth to deceive, working like a plague. That's why they are not allowed to hurt any green thing upon the earth, which real locusts certainly would do. Their power is over the earth. Those not sealed with God's Seal (the deceived) the locusts cannot kill, but only sting, for 5 months. The locusts ride upon horses, and have the faces of men, meaning they are men. They have breastplates of iron put for war, but the real battle they do comes out of the 'mouths'...

Rev 9:17-21
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.


One working on the 5th Trumpet, and then another working of the locusts on the 6th Trumpet. What comes out of one's mouth? Words. That's the type of battle this is, a battle using words to deceive with. The stinging and killing is about spiritual death mainly.


20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
(KJV)

These locusts are to deceive the whole world, and come in two stages. The 5th trumpet is their first period of working. The 6th trumpet is their final stage of working, in association with the "another beast" dragon of Rev.13 and Rev.16. So WHO are these "rest of the men"?

If these last ones represent the truly wicked, those who do murder, sorcery, fornicators, theives, i.e., the truly wicked, then who are those others the locusts are not allowed to kill but sting only? ANS: the deceived of God's people. God's people is who this locust test is especially upon, not the truly wicked, for we see the wicked above are not killed, nor do they repent. So who's workers do these locusts represent? Satan's workers.

Per Rev.11, the 2nd Woe period doesn't end until the final 7th Trumpet gets ready to sound, bringing the final 3rd Woe. The 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet represents the great tribulation period. Paul in 1 Thess.5 revealed that tribulaton period is when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety". That is the kind of times the coming pseudo-Christ/false messiah is to create on earth, just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. Per the Book of Daniel that false one will insitute false idol worship in Jerusalem, and destroy many using peace, and craft is to prosper in his hand. That is also the time when God's two witnesses show up in Jerusalem and prophesy against them for 1260 days, and then killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan as the dragon).

That's what today's world events are leading up to, preparation for all nations under a one-world monarchy with the dragon as king over all the earth, with prosperity and peace from his hand, healing the deadly wound. While many are busy preaching all out WWIII for the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned, it's actually going to be a time of world peace, though it will be a fake peace, not the real peace our Lord Jesus will bring when He returns afterwards. This is why all the economies of the nations are being balanced today with the redistribution of wealth under Internationalist controls, and the end of the concept of national sovereignty, and a final working towards one-world religion.

 

[JosyWales]

Guysmith, have you ever considered these passages in relation to what you show above?:

Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.

Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Eze 9:8 ¶ And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah [is] exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, [but] I will recompense their way upon their head.

Eze 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

My interpretation is that this is Michael (who is alive on the Earth during this time and is known as the 2nd Angel of Revelation) is sent out before the other 5 angels and does the work of sealing the Mighty and Holy People, who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation. The 7th angel is not included with these first 6 because the 7th Angel of Revelation is the Beast.

Also, since the scripture mentions that the destroying angels are not to touch or come near those who are sealed, they may be instrumental in saving many others, for whoever is close to them during these times will also be protected, just as the families were passed over during the Passorver in ancient Egypt who had the mark (or seal) on the doors.

 

[daq]

Guysmith, have you ever considered these passages in relation to what you show above?:

Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.

Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Eze 9:8 ¶ And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

Eze 9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah [is] exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

Eze 9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, [but] I will recompense their way upon their head.

Eze 9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

My interpretation is that this is Michael (who is alive on the Earth during this time and is known as the 2nd Angel of Revelation) is sent out before the other 5 angels and does the work of sealing the Mighty and Holy People, who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation. The 7th angel is not included with these first 6 because the 7th Angel of Revelation is the Beast.

Also, since the scripture mentions that the destroying angels are not to touch or come near those who are sealed, they may be instrumental in saving many others, for whoever is close to them during these times will also be protected, just as the families were passed over during the Passorver in ancient Egypt who had the mark (or seal) on the doors.

The children do frolic beside the bonfire claiming to partake of Yeshua, the Passover Lamb of YHWH, yet refusing to walk according to the Spirit and at the same time rejecting Torah as if it were "done away" and therefore not applying to themselves; neither seeming to believe or even care that, as the Master teaches, we ourselves are the "HOUSE", with its Door, its bason at the threshold, its door posts, and the lintel-header upon the "forehead" of the door frame:

Exodus 12:5-13 KJV
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening ["between the evenings"].
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's Passover.
12. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 12:21-24 KJV
21. Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the Passover.
22. And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
23. For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
24. And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Deuteronomy 6:4-9 KJV
4. Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:
5. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7. And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, [supernal] and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes [supernal].
9. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, [supernal] and on thy gates [supernal].

Mark 12:29-30 KJV
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Deuteronomy 11:16-21 KJV
16. Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
17. And then the Lord's wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the Lord giveth you.
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, [supernal] that they may be as frontlets between your eyes [supernal].
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, [supernal] and upon thy gates: [supernal]
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.

And here it is the midst of Unleavened Bread! Gird yourselves and acquit yourselves as men! :lol:

 

[guysmith]

JoseWales,

You stated: Guysmith, have you ever considered these passages in relation to what you show above?:

My response: I see a similarity in the sealing.

You stated: My interpretation is that this is Michael (who is alive on the Earth
during this time and is known as the 2nd Angel of Revelation) is sent
out before the other 5 angels and does the work of sealing the Mighty
and Holy People, who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation. The 7th
angel is not included with these first 6 because the 7th Angel of
Revelation is the Beast.

My response: I am not sure that it is Micheal and I am not sure that sure that the 7th angel is the beast. Also, I am not sure that Ezeckiel 9 is a future event. Are you stating that Ez 9 is yet to be fulfilled?

You stated: Also, since the scripture mentions that the destroying angels are not
to touch or come near those who are sealed, they may be instrumental in
saving many others, for whoever is close to them during these times
will also be protected, just as the families were passed over during the
Passorver in ancient Egypt who had the mark (or seal) on the doors.

My response: I agree with this observation whole heartedly.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

This would suggest that the only believers that will be
alive, at the time of the fifth trumpet, are the 144K. If there were other believers alive at that
time, then they too would be inflicted by the fifth trumpet plague.


What are your thoughts?

Guy ..... many years ago I came to the same conclusion

Revelation 9 accounts for everybody on earth
-- the 144,000 have been sealed
-- a third of mankind has been killed
-- two thirds of mankind remain
-- and the two thirds that remain ... did not stop worshiping demons , did not repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Those 2/3 that remain simply cannot be Christian believers .


.

 

[guysmith]

Arnie,

Do you think that the 144K are exclusively Israeli Jews?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Arnie,

Do you think that the 144K are exclusively Israeli Jews?

No , only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah

I am under the impression that today's Israel is populated mainly by Jews (tribe of Judah)

I admit to not having a clue where God finds and seals the remaining 132,000 from the other 11 tribes

If they exist today they must be within the world's general population and are somehow a preserved lineage of the other tribes ..... we dont know who they are , and probably more important at this moment they themselves do not know who they are.

I also allow the possibility they they are contained within the current Israeli population and have mis-identified themselves as "Judah" for all these years but that would require the seemingly impossibility that the 12 distinct tribes have been preserved for 2000 years without them even knowing it , or keeping bloodlines pure without intermarrying other tribes.

At times like this my mind goes back to several places in the OT where God points out he has "preserved some of his righteous" people in the midst of nations or cities that otherwise were completely evil and corrupt ..... I dont have the verses handy but they have always intrigued me as to what point God was trying to make.

Maybe He has done that for the 144k .... who knows

Another thing I notice is that even at the end of Revelation , God shows the importance of the 12 tribes along with the 12 apostles (12 gates and 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem)

Another thing that I ponder , and that intrigues me is that so many of us "Gentile Christians" in the world practiced circumcision for over 2000 years ...... circumcision is a purely religious practice originating from Israel ..... maybe some of the 12 tribes are preserved right among us ..... and again ..... we dont even know it.

I know for sure I am not one of the 144k ...... I lost my virginity in 1971

Sorry for the long answer guy ...... I look forward to your slant on the 144k

Later I will try to look up the OT places where God mentions preserving handfulls of "his righteous" without anyone else being aware of it.

 

[guysmith]

arnie,

To be alive at Christ’s advent is a calling, not meant for
every believer. So, if you don’t feel this calling, I am not going to try to
convince you or anyone else otherwise.


That said, you have raised some interesting points which I
am sure have crossed other peoples minds.
I would like to address those points in a friendly conversation for the
benefit of these others. I look forward
to your responses.


You stated:...... I lost my virginity in 1971

My response: Is there a possibility that there is another
meaning implied to the 144k being virgins?
I can think of at least one.


You stated: I know for sure I am not
one of the 144k

My response: No one knows for sure that
they are one of the two witnesses or one of the 144k. On the other hand, no one knows for sure that
they aren’t.

The number 144,000 is
insignificant. Just like there were
eight on the ark. The number eight is
insignificant, it just so happened that there were eight on the ark. Similarly, there just so happens that there will
be 144K men on Mount Zion during the GT.

There also will be women on Mount Zion
during the GT. The Bible identifies these
women as “the daughters of Zion.”


You stated: Later I will try to look up
the OT places where God mentions preserving handfulls of "his
righteous" without anyone else being aware of it.


My response: I look forward to
this. However, if the 144k are the only
one sealed against the fifth trumpet, then if there where other pockets of believers,
wouldn’t these “handful of His righteous” be also be inflicted by the fifth trumpet plague?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Guysmith ... On the topic of God maybe preserving the 144k without us being aware of it .... here is an example from 1 Kings 19

Elijah says to God .... The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

God says to Elijah ..... yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

Interesting this example is used again in Romans 11:1-6 when the salvation of remnant Israel is being discussed

..........................................


I am beginning to wonder if the 144k were redeemed from earth some time previously (when the 12 tribes were still around) ..... and maybe Jesus returns them bodily to earth at the endtimes , complete with a protective sealing

I am now giving that some serious thought ..... I have (so far) not found verses saying they were redeemed from mankind specifically at the endtimes ..... if anyone can point out they were , please do.

(ps: I know they appear and are sealed at the endtimes , I am asking about when they were redeemed from mankind)

 

[JosyWales]

JoseWales,

You stated: Guysmith, have you ever considered these passages in relation to what you show above?:

My response: I see a similarity in the sealing.

You stated: My interpretation is that this is Michael (who is alive on the Earth
during this time and is known as the 2nd Angel of Revelation) is sent
out before the other 5 angels and does the work of sealing the Mighty
and Holy People, who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation. The 7th
angel is not included with these first 6 because the 7th Angel of
Revelation is the Beast.

My response: I am not sure that it is Micheal and I am not sure that sure that the 7th angel is the beast. Also, I am not sure that Ezeckiel 9 is a future event. Are you stating that Ez 9 is yet to be fulfilled?

You stated: Also, since the scripture mentions that the destroying angels are not
to touch or come near those who are sealed, they may be instrumental in
saving many others, for whoever is close to them during these times
will also be protected, just as the families were passed over during the
Passorver in ancient Egypt who had the mark (or seal) on the doors.

My response: I agree with this observation whole heartedly.

Guysmith, I am sure that this is Michael in Ezekiel 9 and devoted my last post under my "Simple Chart of End Time Events" to that subject. Also in that same thread, I have laid out my belief about who the Seven Angels are, or that is to say rather who and what they will be. Under this, I have come to the conclusion that the Seventh Angel is indeed the Beast and provided my reasons for thinking so. Since, according to Revelation 3:16, the Seventh Angel is the ONLY one to be completely cast out of the presence of God, at least that is the way it seems to me, this matches up pretty well, especially with all the other evidence I show in that thread.

As for whether the events of Eze 9 (which continues well into chapter 10) is a future event, the actions of this particular "Angel with a writers inkhorn" are pretty spectacular. I dont think God would have hidden such an action (if it could even be hidden) considering the nature of it and the extreme consequences of it. Combining that with how well it seems to fit with the actions of the 'Mighty and Strong Angel" found several times in Revelation, I believe it impossible to not be futuristic. Also, Ezekiel 14, just a few chapters later goes into a whole exhortation of Noah, Daniel and Job all existing during a tribulation event, which must surely be in a future setting. If Eze 9-10 is not a future event, then I will be very suprised. If you have looked into my explaination of my Chart, you must know that I believe that Michael is going to be the Daniel character (one who stands in the room of Daniel during the future Apocalypse) per Eze 14 as the fulfillment of this prophecy.

I am glad that you see the relationship between the placing of the seals on the people who deserve saving in Ezekiel and what appears to be the same event in Revelation. It appears to me to be a pretty straight up match and, in relation to how I have laid it out in my Chart, it fits. I am also glad that you agree with me in that these people will also save others as well.

As for whether the 144,000 are to be Jewish and virgin, I believe this to be so and was going to post the very same scripture that Arnie did to support it, so I'm glad he was on top of that one. I will go further to say that these are most likely the Mighty and Holy People of Daniel 9 and 12 and Revelation 12:17.

 

[guysmith]

arnie,



re·deem
transitive verb \ri-ˈdēm\




Definition of REDEEM

1
a : to buy back : repurchase

b : to get or win back


2
: to free from what distresses or harms: as

a : to free from captivity by payment of ransom

b : to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental

c : to release from blame or debt : clear

d : to free from the consequences of sin


3
: to change for the better : reform


4
: repair, restore


5
a : to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby

b (1) : to remove the obligation of by payment <the United States Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand> (2) : to exchange for something of value <redeem trading stamps>

c : to make good : fulfill

6
a : to atone for : expiate <redeem an error>

b (1) : to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : retrieve

You stated: I am now giving that some serious thought ..... I have (so far) not found verses saying they were redeemed from mankind specifically at the endtimes ..... if anyone can point out they were , please do.

My response: Do you think maybe when they are sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Arnie,

Do you think that the 144K are exclusively Israeli Jews?

guysmith

a couple of posts up i said "NO" unless somehow the 12 tribes were absorbed within Judaism ..... and even they would likely not be aware of it

However .... to my surprise I happened to be listening to an archived Chuck Missler 66-40 radio show on that very subject ..... and .... to my surprise he used bible to show how at one time the tribes migrated down and joined judah and were absorbed in them ..... something about escaping idol worshiping tribe of Dan etc

.................................................

The Lost Twelve Tribes: Found!
listen to part 3 ...... in the link below ...
http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP038/
around the 10 minute mark he talks about it if you dont have time to listen to all 26 minutes
................................................

let me know what you think ...... I have a couple of busy days ahead so will check back when I can
arnie

 

[veteran]

arnie,

To be alive at Christ’s advent is a calling, not meant for
every believer. So, if you don’t feel this calling, I am not going to try to
convince you or anyone else otherwise.


That said, you have raised some interesting points which I
am sure have crossed other peoples minds.
I would like to address those points in a friendly conversation for the
benefit of these others. I look forward
to your responses.


You stated:...... I lost my virginity in 1971

My response: Is there a possibility that there is another
meaning implied to the 144k being virgins?
I can think of at least one.


You stated: I know for sure I am not
one of the 144k

My response: No one knows for sure that
they are one of the two witnesses or one of the 144k. On the other hand, no one knows for sure that
they aren’t.

The number 144,000 is
insignificant. Just like there were
eight on the ark. The number eight is
insignificant, it just so happened that there were eight on the ark. Similarly, there just so happens that there will
be 144K men on Mount Zion during the GT.

There also will be women on Mount Zion
during the GT. The Bible identifies these
women as “the daughters of Zion.”


You stated: Later I will try to look up
the OT places where God mentions preserving handfulls of "his
righteous" without anyone else being aware of it.


My response: I look forward to
this. However, if the 144k are the only
one sealed against the fifth trumpet, then if there where other pockets of believers,
wouldn’t these “handful of His righteous” be also be inflicted by the fifth trumpet plague?

Why are you so busy trying to prove there's going to be Salvation in Jerusalem DURING the great tribulation time? Who are you listening to, because I can't find that idea in my Bible.

What I can find today are Orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today that plan to build another temple and start up the Old Covenant sacrifices again, a work clearly against Christ Jesus, and how they are inviting Christ's Church to partake in that abomination!

Jesus even warned against following false prophets to the desert where they will be proclaiming Messiah has come (Matt.24:23-28). He gave the same warning about those who will declaring He has come and is in the "secret chambers" also, pointing to inside their future rebuilt temple in Jerusalem.

The best thing those in Christ Jesus in Jerusalem can do now, is to make plans to get OUT of that area when they see the "abomination of desolation" setup there, flee to the mountains, not to the desert.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, guysmith.

Revelation 9:1-4 states that the only ones which avoids the affects of
the Fifth Trumpet plague are those which have “the seal of God in their
foreheads.”

Revelation 9

1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that
had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft
of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the
Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and
sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And
out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that
of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm
the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not
have the seal of God on their foreheads.


In Revelation 7:1-4 we see that number of
those that are “sealed” in “the foreheads” are the “servants of our God” the
144K.


Revelation 7 144,000 Sealed

1 After this I
saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the
four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the
sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel
coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a
loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the
sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea
or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4 Then I heard the number of those who were
sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


This would suggest that the only believers that will be
alive, at the time of the fifth trumpet, are the 144K. If there were other believers alive at that
time, then they too would be inflicted by the fifth trumpet plague.


What are your thoughts?

First, your logic is flawed and, second, you didn't read far enough:

Revelation 7:1-10
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
KJV

There were not just 144,000 sealed; there were 144,000 sealed "of all the tribes of the children of Isra'el!" Verses 9 and 10 show us a whole host of others from "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues (languages)," "which no man could number!" The 144,000 is JUST from the children of Isra'el.


Shalom, veteran.

The locusts of the Book of Joel is the subject of that 5th Trumpet. Per both Joel and Rev.9, we know those locusts are put for a certain group of men working upon the earth to deceive, working like a plague. That's why they are not allowed to hurt any green thing upon the earth, which real locusts certainly would do. Their power is over the earth. Those not sealed with God's Seal (the deceived) the locusts cannot kill, but only sting, for 5 months. The locusts ride upon horses, and have the faces of men, meaning they are men. They have breastplates of iron put for war, but the real battle they do comes out of the 'mouths'...

Rev 9:17-21
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.


One working on the 5th Trumpet, and then another working of the locusts on the 6th Trumpet. What comes out of one's mouth? Words. That's the type of battle this is, a battle using words to deceive with. The stinging and killing is about spiritual death mainly.


20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
(KJV)

These locusts are to deceive the whole world, and come in two stages. The 5th trumpet is their first period of working. The 6th trumpet is their final stage of working, in association with the "another beast" dragon of Rev.13 and Rev.16. So WHO are these "rest of the men"?

If these last ones represent the truly wicked, those who do murder, sorcery, fornicators, theives, i.e., the truly wicked, then who are those others the locusts are not allowed to kill but sting only? ANS: the deceived of God's people. God's people is who this locust test is especially upon, not the truly wicked, for we see the wicked above are not killed, nor do they repent. So who's workers do these locusts represent? Satan's workers.

Per Rev.11, the 2nd Woe period doesn't end until the final 7th Trumpet gets ready to sound, bringing the final 3rd Woe. The 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet represents the great tribulation period. Paul in 1 Thess.5 revealed that tribulaton period is when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety". That is the kind of times the coming pseudo-Christ/false messiah is to create on earth, just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. Per the Book of Daniel that false one will insitute false idol worship in Jerusalem, and destroy many using peace, and craft is to prosper in his hand. That is also the time when God's two witnesses show up in Jerusalem and prophesy against them for 1260 days, and then killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan as the dragon).

That's what today's world events are leading up to, preparation for all nations under a one-world monarchy with the dragon as king over all the earth, with prosperity and peace from his hand, healing the deadly wound. While many are busy preaching all out WWIII for the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned, it's actually going to be a time of world peace, though it will be a fake peace, not the real peace our Lord Jesus will bring when He returns afterwards. This is why all the economies of the nations are being balanced today with the redistribution of wealth under Internationalist controls, and the end of the concept of national sovereignty, and a final working towards one-world religion.

I will never understand why you insist on mixing the fifth trumpet with the sixth trumpet! They do NOT go together! The creatures of the sixth trumpet are FAR different than the locusts of the fifth trumpet! The locusts do NOT "ride upon horses having the faces of men!" Read more carefully!

Revelation 9:7
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
KJV

Reminiscent of, but not equal to!

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.


I will never understand why you insist on mixing the fifth trumpet with the sixth trumpet! They do NOT go together! The creatures of the sixth trumpet are FAR different than the locusts of the fifth trumpet! The locusts do NOT "ride upon horses having the faces of men!" Read more carefully!

Revelation 9:7
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
KJV

Reminiscent of, but not equal to!

The horsemen on the 5th trumpet and the horsemen on the 6th trumpet is in the same context of the locusts of the Book of Joel. Even in Joel 2 God calls those locusts His great army He sends among His people...

Joel 2:25
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, My great army which I sent among you.
(KJV)

Furthermore, the Armageddon event of Rev.16 is on the FINAL 'vial', which is linked to the Ezekiel 39 destruction of the great army that comes out of the northern quarters. In Rev.16 our Lord Jesus shows us it is the time of the gathering Satan's host to battle for when He returns to destroy and take reign. That then aligns with the events of the final 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when we are told He takes reign over all kingdoms of this world. Thus the 6th trumpet events are aligned with the 6th vial events, and the 7th trumpet events aligned with the final 7th vial events.

The main difference with the operation of that locust army on the 5th trumpet is a 'preparation period' for a specific event to occur with the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The 2nd Woe period extends all the way up to the beginning of the sound of the 7th final trumpet per Rev.11. So 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period = great tribulation period. The 5th trumpet - 1st Woe period represents the prep before the tribulation period, just prior to the appearance of the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem to start the shortened tribulation period. Per Rev.7 and Rev.9 God does the sealing of His servants in prep for the "strong delusion", so they will not be deceived, so the "strong delusion" event (appearance of the pseudo-Messiah is not yet during that prep period). The "strong delusion" period is the tribulation period, the event of the appearing of the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem.

And for the tribulation period, there is no 'war' going on (Matt.24:6; 1 Thess.5:1-5; Rev.11:1-8).


Trib Prep:

Rev 9:10-11
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)


Actual Trib Period:

Rev 9:17-19
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

SAME locust army for both, DIFFERENT operation for the two different periods (5th trumpet vs. 6th trumpet).

 

[Brothertom]

I think the time of the 1/3rd killing of all men on the Earth, speaks of Nuclear war.

" By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths........
For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt."

This speaks to me of inter-ballistic missiles. The heads they hurt with are Nuclear war heads, & the tails are their smoke of their trails, like a serpent in the sky. It could be a global Nuclear war that lasts 5 months...150 days, with no food, no power, infected water supplies & many multitudes suffering from Nuclear burns...& men wishing they were dead.....seeing the immense suffering of their loved ones, & their own pain. This will end in approximately 2 1/2 BILLION dead on the Earth , thus combining the 5th & 6th Trumpet locust armies.

I think that this will set up the rule of the Anti-Christ...& as many of you may know, I believe him to be Osama bin Laden, who confronted me on my trip to Africa last September 26th. I also witnessed pillars of fire the False Prophet called down, twice. They desired to butcher me through 4 countries...but the Lord delivered me. I prophesied to both of them.

He is empowered by Allah, the demon king...possessing him...the beast who came out of the bottomless pit. The Father sent him there...[ The Prince of Persia ], Mars, or Allah, somewhere about 1000 AD...All of the Islamic armies are the 200 million...the "faces of men"..[ Most of them wear long hair, like women..]...& they are gaining power every day. I believe that Bin Laden is revealing himself to National Islamic leaders now...until the day he reveals himself to all. I believe Obama & Putin are in on this by knowledge...& many others, & that after this war...the Earth will be divided into ten sections...& Sharia Law will be imposed, even to buy or sell...& it is then that the great beheadings will begin....& America too, will be occupied.

I have seen the battle for Air Superiority, fought over the Texas/Katrina Coastline...that goes on & on & on....until we are overrun & our armies brutally defeated..through out the world. I also saw great & mighty Foreign armies rising out of the sea....also near the same area, & the Word of the Lord identifying the number of that army ....."TWENTY MILLION". I ALSO WAS GIVEN THEIR STRATEGY...to rush to cities & occupy them, & then they will never retreat...& from these cities in America...Crush all opposition. These are butchers...& the only way out is to take the mark of Allah...to buy or sell...or be beheaded.

The 144,000 will be protected during this time....maybe immortal until their day. I think they came from the gentile Nations where their Jewish blood has been mixed over the centuries...but never forgotten by God. I also believe that those sealed definitely KNOW they have been sealed by the experience of it....but may not know the power they have, yet.

There will be a remnant Bride here, & on all lands..that will remain until the Great Gathering when Jesus returns.

I met the false prophet who called down fire on September 26th, 2012, in Asmara, Eritrea. [ N. Africa ] This could have been the exact day of Bin Laden's resurrection. I added 1260 days to that , 3 1/2 years [ Jewish ]..& came to March 9th, 2016.

" Will the significance of this ‘666’ year count mark-off the reign of the Anti-Christ to come? Maybe. This will make the Total Solar Eclipse of [Mar 9, 2016] the center Focal Points & date of the Decade & the 3.33rd year in relation to the Eclipses. This Center Date also happens to correlate precisely with the midpoint of the Jewish year 5776. Many Biblical Researchers believe that this date corresponds to the Year of Jubilee that is to be traditionally Proclaimed on Yom Kippur the year prior in 2015."

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2011/luisv1217.htm

The Anti-Christ is already here, & it may be that he will reveal himself worldwide on that day, March 9th, 2016...& that also could be the day he launches the great war defeating America insuring World-domination. I am not sure...but maybe.

I prophesied to the false prophet & Bin Laden that they would get the world, but not all of it...& that they would lose in the end, & that Jesus is Lord of Lords, & would cast them alive into the lake of fire. This did not sit too well with them. I survived...even with mobs of Taliban soldiers seeking to make a Daniel Pearl video of me.God protected me & I do not know how I survived...but I did.
Tom.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

The horsemen on the 5th trumpet and the horsemen on the 6th trumpet is in the same context of the locusts of the Book of Joel. Even in Joel 2 God calls those locusts His great army He sends among His people...

Joel 2:25
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, My great army which I sent among you.
(KJV)

Furthermore, the Armageddon event of Rev.16 is on the FINAL 'vial', which is linked to the Ezekiel 39 destruction of the great army that comes out of the northern quarters. In Rev.16 our Lord Jesus shows us it is the time of the gathering Satan's host to battle for when He returns to destroy and take reign. That then aligns with the events of the final 7th trumpet of Rev.11 when we are told He takes reign over all kingdoms of this world. Thus the 6th trumpet events are aligned with the 6th vial events, and the 7th trumpet events aligned with the final 7th vial events.

The main difference with the operation of that locust army on the 5th trumpet is a 'preparation period' for a specific event to occur with the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The 2nd Woe period extends all the way up to the beginning of the sound of the 7th final trumpet per Rev.11. So 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period = great tribulation period. The 5th trumpet - 1st Woe period represents the prep before the tribulation period, just prior to the appearance of the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem to start the shortened tribulation period. Per Rev.7 and Rev.9 God does the sealing of His servants in prep for the "strong delusion", so they will not be deceived, so the "strong delusion" event (appearance of the pseudo-Messiah is not yet during that prep period). The "strong delusion" period is the tribulation period, the event of the appearing of the pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem.

And for the tribulation period, there is no 'war' going on (Matt.24:6; 1 Thess.5:1-5; Rev.11:1-8).


Trib Prep:

Rev 9:10-11
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)


Actual Trib Period:

Rev 9:17-19
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)

SAME locust army for both, DIFFERENT operation for the two different periods (5th trumpet vs. 6th trumpet).

See it big; keep it simple. It's a good motto to live by.

First of all, the "locust army" of Yo'el (Joel) 2:25 is not at all the same as the "locusts" of Revelation 9:1-12! This "great army" that he sent against Isra'el consisted of locusts (REAL bald locusts, large grasshoppers), "cankerworms" (nymph locusts), "caterpillars" (smaller grasshoppers), and "palmerworms" (katydids). God was going to RESTORE what they had EATEN! And what was eaten that God will restore?

Joel 2:23-24
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
KJV

Thus, the food that these locusts had formerly eaten were wheat in their fields, grapevines in their vineyards, and the olive trees!

Since the "locusts" of Revelation 9 were told not to touch the vegetation, they are just not the same!

 

[guysmith]

The 144,000 will be protected during this time....maybe immortal until their day. I think they came from the gentile Nations where their Jewish blood has been mixed over the centuries...but never forgotten by God. I also believe that those sealed definitely KNOW they have been sealed by the experience of it....but may not know the power they have, yet.

JMHO but this statement sums up unfulfilled Bible prophecy. The only remaining question is where will these 144k be during that time.

Guy

 

[Trumpeter]

JMHO but this statement sums up unfulfilled Bible prophecy. The only remaining question is where will these 144k be during that time.

Guy

The Lord says that the 144k get their glorified bodies at the rapture but instead of going with the rest of the body of Christ they are put right back here to do their ministry during the Trib period.