Would you be speaking about these heavenly realms Eph 1:3,20; 2:6; 3:10 & Tit 3:1.
Alethos
The Flesh & The Spirit
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Would you be speaking about these heavenly realms Eph 1:3,20; 2:6; 3:10 & Tit 3:1.
Alethos
The verse he quoted is self explanatory.
"For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms."
The verse is not addressing heavenly realms it is addressing the powers of darkness, evil rulers and wicked spirits.
The verse is not addressing heavenly realms it is addressing the powers of darkness, evil rulers and wicked spirits.
So am I right in saying you believe these "wicked spirits" are in Heaven?
As per Ducky bold text...
and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms
Alethos
So basically Alethos, you don't really believe God's Word when It is speaking of the 'cherub' Satan as a real entity. Lot of pagans don't believe Satan is a real entity either, but only some magical mysterious force of nature. God's Word is specific that Satan is a heavenly cherub (Ezek.28:14).
Eph 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV)
The KJV has it rendered "high" (2032) "places" (9999), instead of "heavenly realms".
The word "high" is Greek epouranious and means celestial, heavenly. It is translated "heavenly" in the KJV in about 16 different NT examples.
Eph 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV)
The KJV has it rendered "high" (2032) "places" (9999), instead of "heavenly realms".
The word "high" is Greek epouranious and means celestial, heavenly. It is translated "heavenly" in the KJV in about 16 different NT examples.
As I said previously, to deny that Satan/ the devil/ the evil one, exists is to make a mockery of God's Word, and is Satanic in nature. Of course, Satan doesn't want us to believe he is a very real danger to us.
Ezekiel 28:13-15
Ezekiel 28:13-15 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God . . . Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; . . . Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
In Ezek 28 Can you find anywhere the terms "devil", "satan", or "fallen angel"? You mention this chapter a lot in your satan posts but nowhere is he mentioned. If anything before we progress you must state your demonic being is inferred!
ESV [sup]14[/sup]You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;
NIV [sup]14[/sup] You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.
The anointed cherub accepting the A.V. translation is identified in the passage, but not with a rebel angel:
"Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus . . ." Ezek 28:2. In chapters 26 and 27 prophecies recorded the then impending doom of the city of Tyre.
I know you have prefaced your comments that this is not speaking of the prince of Tyrus, so I require proof, verse 2 states clearly the person in mention is the Prince of Tyre.
Lets consider the verse in context:
In chapters 26 and 27 of Ezekiel's prophecy speaks to the destruction of Tyre - and literally enough, since today the site of ancient Tyre is like "the top of a rock . . . a place to spread nets upon" and has never been rebuilt. (Ezek. 26:14). The remainder of chapter 28 is a prophecy directed against Sidon and the future restoration of Israel.
So why in this context would the prophet introduce a new "revelation" about the origin of Satan?
Veteran this requires an answer?
If Satan is a rebel angel, why is he called "a man"? (Ezek 28:2, 9 RSV)
Does Satan the devil really traffic in riches - gold and silver? (Ezek 28: 4, 5). This is what humans do?
Veteran you have mentioned many times that Satans greed was for Gods throne, but here in Ezek 28:4,5 “thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches"?
Since Jesus stated that angels do not die: "neither can they [children of the resurrection] die any more: for they are equal unto the angels' (Luke 20:36), how is Satan to die "by the hand of strangers" (Ezek 28:10)?, to be devoured by fire and brought "to ashes" (Ezek 28:18), and "to be no more forever" (Ezek 28: 19, R.S.V.)?
"There is no secret that they can hide from thee." (Ezek 28:3). Verteran this illustration is similar to "the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." (Luke 16:8). The king of Tyre was wise in his ability to increase his riches through trade (Ezek 28:5, Zech. 9:2), but this does not mean that he was wiser than Daniel in divine matters.
"Thou has been in Eden the garden of God." (Ezek 28:13) Do you believe this refers back to the days of Adam and Eve? But they are not mentioned?
This passage is not saying the King of Tyre lived contemporary with Adam and Eve. It just requires the king to have been in Eden, the garden of God, no mention of time is provided. Eden is an area in which the garden was placed in the east. (Gen. 2:8 cp Ezek. 27:23).
I will leave it there for now, as you have much to consider and I eagerly await your response.
Alethos
justaname
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You have a strong grasp on the task of the human experience. We truly are here to overcome ourselves and the things of this world. As Christians we are to die to ourselves and the things of this world, in order to pick up our cross and follow step of our leader Jesus Christ. I also feel we tend to blame others, even the devil, for our own shortcomings or failures.
With that said, you cannot reconcile Matthew 4 without acceptance of a different entity other than the self. There is clearly two different beings in the beginning of the chapter.
Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
The tempter came to him, he said...
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city...
Again, the devil taketh him ... if thou will fall down and worship me. From your standpoint is Jesus asking himself to worship himself, thereby taking the role of Satan (and sin)?
Then Jesus names this devil, "Get thee hence, Satan:...
Jesus was not having this conversation with his flesh (or sin), it was with the devil, or tempter, or Satan.
Just as in Job, the Lord was having a conversation with Satan.
From Job 3:7 we see Satan in action "So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with boils..." Clearly this action was from Satan, from earlier verses permission was given from the Lord.
From Job 4:18 we also know "Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:"
If angels cannot sin, what would constitute foolishness or folly?
What you post is thought provoking. Clearly you have done much research to state your viewpoint. Much of what you post is on point. Honestly, let us work cohesively, to discern the truth. May the Holy Spirit bless us all in this endeavour.
With that said, you cannot reconcile Matthew 4 without acceptance of a different entity other than the self. There is clearly two different beings in the beginning of the chapter.
Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
The tempter came to him, he said...
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city...
Again, the devil taketh him ... if thou will fall down and worship me. From your standpoint is Jesus asking himself to worship himself, thereby taking the role of Satan (and sin)?
Then Jesus names this devil, "Get thee hence, Satan:...
Jesus was not having this conversation with his flesh (or sin), it was with the devil, or tempter, or Satan.
Just as in Job, the Lord was having a conversation with Satan.
From Job 3:7 we see Satan in action "So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with boils..." Clearly this action was from Satan, from earlier verses permission was given from the Lord.
From Job 4:18 we also know "Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:"
If angels cannot sin, what would constitute foolishness or folly?
What you post is thought provoking. Clearly you have done much research to state your viewpoint. Much of what you post is on point. Honestly, let us work cohesively, to discern the truth. May the Holy Spirit bless us all in this endeavour.
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Choir Loft
To Truth:
You make many assertions and then complicate them all by adding dissimilar statements regarding the nature and mechanics of sin and salvation.
The nature of sin is a complex idea to understand and transmit to others. If this were not so, then there would be no need for entire chapters in the Bible to explain it.
Your primary argument in an earlier post used (Hebrews 2:14) as a starting point.
Can you go back and restate your interpretation, keeping it simple? Many of your statements may be misapplied. I for one have gotten the impression that you are saying one thing and meaning another. For example, you began one post by saying that, "The Devil is Sin in the Flesh". Here are some of the possible questions that arise from your statements regarding Heb 2:14.
Are you saying that the flesh is 'devilish' or wicked ?
Are you saying that sin is a spiritual person that lives inside of a physical body?
Are you saying that sin is more of a principle than a person or power?
Are you saying that the whole notion of angelic powers being in conflict with flesh is illogical?
As I stated, the concept of sin and it's affect upon man is complex. Please revisit your interpretation and go slowly, one step at a time. Do not take huge leaps of logic as they may result in miscommunication or confusion (unless that is your intent). Do not make assumptions that the reader understands 'where you are going'.
One's frame of reference must be clearly defined, else your point may escape attention.
You make many assertions and then complicate them all by adding dissimilar statements regarding the nature and mechanics of sin and salvation.
The nature of sin is a complex idea to understand and transmit to others. If this were not so, then there would be no need for entire chapters in the Bible to explain it.
Your primary argument in an earlier post used (Hebrews 2:14) as a starting point.
Can you go back and restate your interpretation, keeping it simple? Many of your statements may be misapplied. I for one have gotten the impression that you are saying one thing and meaning another. For example, you began one post by saying that, "The Devil is Sin in the Flesh". Here are some of the possible questions that arise from your statements regarding Heb 2:14.
Are you saying that the flesh is 'devilish' or wicked ?
Are you saying that sin is a spiritual person that lives inside of a physical body?
Are you saying that sin is more of a principle than a person or power?
Are you saying that the whole notion of angelic powers being in conflict with flesh is illogical?
As I stated, the concept of sin and it's affect upon man is complex. Please revisit your interpretation and go slowly, one step at a time. Do not take huge leaps of logic as they may result in miscommunication or confusion (unless that is your intent). Do not make assumptions that the reader understands 'where you are going'.
One's frame of reference must be clearly defined, else your point may escape attention.
People,Satan has gotten man to believe so many false hoods, and to try and deny that there is a Satan is laughable. Any way it would be laughable if it were not so sad.
Satan twists man’s thinking to where it makes me cry for those who listen to him. There are a few people on this forum that have been trying to peddle such garbage, and it is sad that the forum allows it to go on.
Satan twists man’s thinking to where it makes me cry for those who listen to him. There are a few people on this forum that have been trying to peddle such garbage, and it is sad that the forum allows it to go on.
Thankful 1
So the forum should only allow posts from those who comply with your beliefs? Even though they may be wrong?
Satan only has one mind and its carnal Rom 8:1-3; 4-6, 7-9 and so on....
I am sad you feel this way.
Alethos
Hello Rpj,
You have raised some valid points and I acknowledge many varied discussions have taken place within this topic.
I will endeavour to address your queries this evening when I get home from work.
Thank you
Alethos
My teacher is Jesus Christ the Son of God/God. Also you have no truth. The only reason I am responding to your garbage is to stop what is hearsay. No Christian Church has ever allowed such evil to enter it’s teaching.
Thought you didn't believe in Satan.
Matthew, Jesus, Luke, John, Mark, Paul, James, Peter and Jude all believed and taught about the devil.
Ducky,
We had this conversation weeks ago where I showed you carnal is the same word for animal, which also implies flesh, which is a way of thinking.
Didnt you read the attacherd quotes Rom 8:1-3; 4-6, 7-9?
Alethos
ps we are going over old ground.
And I will continue to warn that those who deny Satan's existence are ministers of Satan disguised as ministers of righteousness who will burn in Hell for eternity. But of course you don't believe in the everlasting Hell or Jesus/God.
2 Corinthians 11:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
Truthful 1
There are others in this forum who are investigating truth and not church dogma. They are quietly testing these truthful points against the Word and some are finding something much deeper and more meaningful that fanaticises born out of Gnostic mysteries. Ducky and yourself are content in these mysteries of the supernatural and clearly settled for Satanism, which is your choice.
I have not forced you to participate in this topic. I can see you are offended with my teachings, which by the way should speak volumes to those with enquiring minds. The Lord Jesus Christ suffered the same rhetoric during his ministry.
How about we allow the Word of God be the sole judge of these matters and refrain from personal attacks.
Alethos
Denial of Jesus/God and the everlasting Hell are clear marks of many religious cults.
John 20:28 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Only Satan's children deny he exists.
John 8:44 (NKJV)
[sup]44 [/sup]You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
John 20:28 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Only Satan's children deny he exists.
John 8:44 (NKJV)
[sup]44 [/sup]You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
Inquiring minds, like the human mind is going to understand God? What a fallacy that is, people want to believe they are intelligent, when to compared to God man is foolish.
You think man will find some hidden truth in the bible that the Early Christians, who knew Jesus while he was here on earth, and the bible, tells us they had the Holy Spirit teach them, and you want people to believe they did not understand your hidden truths?
It took all these years for your inquiring mind to discover these hidden truths. God hid these truths from his people for all these years, and people like you with inquiring minds are now privileged to share these truths. Again I say garbage.
Rjp, there is are very good reasons for your insight. When we consider each occurrence of the word satan or devil it is highly possible and probable they are distinctly different. Here is and example:
Let’s take the term satan: It is a word meaning ‘adversary’ which I am sure you are familiar with. It can be used in many different adversaries in different places. For instance, in Numbers 22:22 it is used of an obedient angel, in 1 Kings 11:14, 23-24 and Psalm 109:68 it is used of mortal men, in 1 Chronicles 21:1 it is used of an enemy nation, and in Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33 it is used of Jesus’ disciple Peter, when he was opposing Jesus.
So you are right that in each occurrence we see different people or groups representing adversaries. Each in their context they can be good satan's or evil satan's depending on the use of the Hebrew word.
Rpj, I will do my best to make this as simple as possible. As I once said to Joshua I am not an English scholar, that should be evident to all who read my posts, but I endeavour to communicate as affectively as am able with the talents entrusted to me by the Master.
The devil has been destroyed by Jesus in Heb 2:14 and that Jesus was sent to destroy its works 1 John 3:8:
Jesus Christ in his death destroyed the devil (Hebrews 2:14-18). Whatever you or I decide the devil to be, we are told that the purpose of his life was to destroy through his death the devil and his works. This happened on Calvary as expressed in Heb 2:14.
The verse also states the devil is that which has the power of death, which is sin (Romans 7:8-11, 1 Corinthians 15:56-57). And this shows us that ‘the devil’ is a term used for the natural tendency of men to sin. In Hebrew 2:14 it is style “Flesh and Blood”.
Jesus Christ did away with sin in living a life of perfect obedience (Rom 3:22), and finally at the conclusion of his life upon a tree he did away with his sinful nature (Rom 7:18; Job 14:4; 25:4; 2 Cor 5:21; Rom 8:3). In doing so destroyed the "devil" (Heb 2:14,15).
We have a powerful example when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness John 3:14; Num 21:9, Jesus finally put away the power of sin from himself at the closing moments of his life when he said “it is finished” and died the power of death died with him.
John 3:14 and Num 21:9 are inseparable. Jesus refers to himself as a “serpent” should not be overlooked, nor explained away, take heed to it and listen, regardless of how repulsive this may seem to you. Jesus Christ was born with a nature prone to sin and here represented as a serpent, stated in his own words. This was his lot as given to him by His Father and Heb 2:14 required Jesus’ gruesome death, being lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness; he destroyed the power of death, which is sin.
But you referred in your comments its various usages in the Bible. The word devil can vary depending on the context of the passage. For instance the devil is often used of evil rulers or kingdoms: 1 Peter 5:8 (here Peter is quoting Proverbs 20:2; 28:15), and in Revelation 12:9 (quoting from Daniel 7:7, 19-23).
Your questions:
Are you saying that the flesh is 'devilish' or wicked ? Yes, it can be devilish and wicked without divine restraint. Phil 2:5
Are you saying that sin is a spiritual person that lives inside of a physical body? No, sin occurs in the flesh Rom 7:23 "members" means "limb or body part; but is speaking to all flesh i.e the whole physical body is where sin occurs.
Are you saying that sin is more of a principle than a person or power? Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is born out of lust, which is in the flesh James 1:15 although sin can be manifested is various ways depending on circumstances it always finds it source in flesh! and nowhere else.
Are you saying that the whole notion of angelic powers being in conflict with flesh is illogical? Angels by their very nature are divine, pure and holy, like God. "The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all ( i.e. there can be no rebellion against God in Heaven). Bless the Lord, ye His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word. Bless ye the Lord, all ye His hosts; ye ministers of His, that do his pleasure" (Ps.103:19-21). “Praise him, all his Angels...his hosts" (Ps.148:2) "The angels...are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them (the believers) who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Heb.1:13,14).
Thank you for your questions.
Alethos
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