The fruit of good & evil

[bbyrd009]

"i mean aren't most pplwhoID as Christian madly in love with themselves too?"
I would say there are many self-loathing Christians as, Christians can be afflicted with all of the same things as non Christians.

ya, that one kinda threw me too, i used to be very self-sabotaging, and that is when i had the worst "morals" i think. Now i am in love with myself, and i get invited back. Hard to splain the diff in that and narcissism, not sure i even could. I treat myself from nature now rather than other's tables, maybe, at least as much as i am able

 

[bbyrd009]

MoP, it would be easier to esteem others higher than self, if there was something in place to convince us that we actually haven’t do anything to be real proud of?

Wadr i wouldn't be doing that, either, esteeming others higher?

But i came back to say the standard i would use for "morality" is confession, one to another. And i'd rather be around someone who confesses to someone they call father in a dark closet than someone who does not confess at all, turns confess into profess, etc

 

[Windmillcharge]

Ok, could you give me an example then?

Cain and Abel, having murder Abel and is confronted by God.He says 'Am I my brothers keeper.'
He had just murdered his brother. From Gods reaction yes we are responcible for how we react to others, we cannot just use and discard them.

 

[Nancy]

I'm not sure how i got involved in a discussion about morality to begin with, tbh...morality is like beliefs, to me, these are things that i have learned it is best to apply to myself, um maybe let the good keep being good, let the evil keep being evil, like that? Morality as a concept is what we mostly wanna apply to others, yes? And what is inferred there, judgement is inferred, right, not forgiveness, imo.

So what i hear WoH asking is how to judge others, which we of course have to do to get along in life, i don't mean that is bad necessarily, until maybe we um open our mouths about it, something like that? Of course i judge others like that all the time, morality-wise, and the faculty i do my best to use is my feet. Maybe like a little kid or even a dog would do? Bc otherwise i get cast in the position of leader.

So another way to put that is that i trust if someone is breaking the Decalogue they are going to pay, not me, their beliefs will be the ones changing, not mine, if you are repulsed then leave, don't talk iow maybe.

Don't be too bad, or too good

"Ha, we walk quite the tightrope here. Nobody likes to be corrected, esp. Christians, it seems. It's that pride is always there and, one can almost see their brain cogs moving while trying to come up with justification for their behavior...? There is a way to confront them but, like yourself, I too judge them in my heart sometimes but, most of those times (eg. a fellow believer has slept around with a few men and I know this as, she is a friend of mine from H.S.) She is also the first to point out everybody else's sin. I try not to get into too many conversations with her as, I am a wimp and will not confront her as strongly as I prob. should?
It all comes out in the wash, lol.

"So what i hear WoH asking is how to judge others, which we of course have to do to get along in life, i don't mean that is bad necessarily, until maybe we um open our mouths about it, something like that? <--- Hahaha, indeed!
Of course i judge others like that all the time, morality-wise, and the faculty i do my best to use is my feet. <--Fight or flight...I fly
Maybe like a little kid or even a dog would do? Bc otherwise i get cast in the position of leader. <--- No tanx!!!

 

[Nancy]

ya, that one kinda threw me too, i used to be very self-sabotaging, and that is when i had the worst "morals" i think. Now i am in love with myself, and i get invited back. Hard to splain the diff in that and narcissism, not sure i even could. I treat myself from nature now rather than other's tables, maybe, at least as much as i am able

Can you 'splain what changed your self-sabotaging, and how you learned to love yourself? I mean, we are told to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. So obv we are to love our selves. Which definition of Love is used there? Self sacrifice. But then, I will never believe God wants us to be used as doormats either. Gotta know when and where to draw that line I suppose.

 

[bbyrd009]

Cain and Abel, having murder Abel and is confronted by God.He says 'Am I my brothers keeper.'
He had just murdered his brother. From Gods reaction yes we are responcible for how we react to others, we cannot just use and discard them.

That one is obvious to us, but seems to me like we then go on to extract "i am my brother's keeper" from that, what is sort of inferred, iow?

 

[bbyrd009]

I try not to get into too many conversations with her as, I am a wimp and will not confront her as strongly as I prob. should?

Why confront her at all?

 

[bbyrd009]

Can you 'splain what changed your self-sabotaging, and how you learned to love yourself? I mean, we are told to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. So obv we are to love our selves. Which definition of Love is used there? Self sacrifice. But then, I will never believe God wants us to be used as doormats either. Gotta know when and where to draw that line I suppose.

i come from a very Codependent family, capital C codependent lol, "my brother's keeper" codependent, and reading Melody Beattie's seminal work "codependent no more" changed my life. My other family members have read it, but it has not taken with them in the same way. I guess that journey is different for women. But i have to say that i still consider myself a recovering coda, 10 years later. Maybe 20 now. I still have to watch it.

Codependency is a huge developed-world problem, the Gov wants us to all be coda of course, "see something say some thing" now, and etc

 

[Nancy]

i come from a very Codependent family, capital C codependent lol, "my brother's keeper" codependent, and reading Melody Beattie's seminal work "codependent no more" changed my life. My other family members have read it, but it has not taken with them in the same way. I guess that journey is different for women. But i have to say that i still consider myself a recovering coda, 10 years later. Maybe 20 now. I still have to watch it.

Codependency is a huge developed-world problem, the Gov wants us to all be coda of course, "see something say some thing" now, and etc

Ah, I see. I am glad the book helped you...sorry it didn't much help your fam. I'm pretty much the opposite...I'm TOO independent as I've lived alone for most of my adult life and have done everything for myself. Now, it is much harder to do allot of what I used to be able to do so, I am forced to depend on others (and they ain't cheap!) to do stuff. I hate that I can't do allot anymore but, am grateful I'm still able to walk! So, I'm not a coda am I an Inde?

 

[Nancy]

Why confront her at all?

Well, she stole from me, she lied, she acts totally different outside of Church. I just say, forgive and don't let it happen again...discernment! God knows. Also, if one were to follow the Word as we say we do, she should be brought to other congregants and if she does not repent then to the Pastor, and from there- put out but, but not as an unbeliever... (do not recall the Script here)
And, since I no longer attend services at that Church, I do not feel I could even do that. All it would be is a she said she said...I know of others who have no problem knowing I am being truthful here as they too know her but...still, what good would it do to call her Church about it? I just pray first and foremost that I forgive her in my heart as long as it might take, and to pray for her spiritual welfare.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah, I see. I am glad the book helped you...sorry it didn't much help your fam. I'm pretty much the opposite...I'm TOO independent as I've lived alone for most of my adult life and have done everything for myself. Now, it is much harder to do allot of what I used to be able to do so, I am forced to depend on others (and they ain't cheap!) to do stuff. I hate that I can't do allot anymore but, am grateful I'm still able to walk! So, I'm not a coda am I an Inde?

i'd be careful about jumping to a conclusion there, as the kind of dependency you describe is not codependency wadr. Interdependency is healthy, and codependents often claim independence. I'm essentially copypasting here from Beattie fwiw

Would you be offended if someone regifted a gift you gave them? Or there are some other Qs that might reveal this

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, she stole from me, she lied, she acts totally different outside of Church

But these are completely different from the philandering, right, even if they are related?

I just say, forgive and don't let it happen again

Well, you skipped some steps, or i mean some info in there, are you saying she confessed? Of course i would forgive either way, for yourself, but how did you both get to the "don't let it happen again?"

Also, if one were to follow the Word as we say we do, she should be brought to other congregants and if she does not repent then to the Pastor, and from there- put out but, but not as an unbeliever... (do not recall the Script here)

well, that one does end as an unbeliever to you, I'm pretty sure? And, how could she "repent to the pastor" although she could confess i guess? Rebound is an action, isn't tit? And penance is satanic, imo anyway, hence the diff term.

FWIW i tried the Scripture method a couple times, ends up not being the lesson one might imagine! At least in the US. Outside the US i doubt you would be able to get that far without a confession tbh. Other nations are not nearly as under the law so completely as US i guess...but any demo i could come up with would um prolly not be appreciated lol

 

[Nancy]

But these are completely different from the philandering, right, even if they are related?

Well, you skipped some steps, or i mean some info in there, are you saying she confessed? Of course i would forgive either way, for yourself, but how did you both get to the "don't let it happen again?"
well, that one does end as an unbeliever to you, I'm pretty sure? And, how could she "repent to the pastor" although she could confess i guess? Rebound is an action, isn't tit? And penance is satanic, imo anyway, hence the diff term.

FWIW i tried the Scripture method a couple times, ends up not being the lesson one might imagine! At least in the US. Outside the US i doubt you would be able to get that far without a confession tbh. Other nations are not nearly as under the law so completely as US i guess...but any demo i could come up with would um prolly not be appreciated lol

Yes, totally dif from the philandering...am I de-railing? sry if I am
I did speak to her about the things she had taken and, she threw me a text saying she would call me during the week sometime to "talk about it" so no, she did not confess it! Well...the call did not come until a week later when I simply said, 'Carol, I wish you well and I will pray that your new place will work out for you. I told her to just keep everything. God bless and take care.' There is obv much more to this story that involves my brother and one other person that goes to the same Church as she does but, I've derailed enough
"Of course i would forgive either way, for yourself, but how did you both get to the "don't let it happen again?"
I am forgiving her a bit more everyday. It got harder like, a week or so after she left (with no notice either, thank you!) I had given my brother who was stopping over there to help her with something, a bag of some of her things she left behind. He called me later that night and told me he asked her about the things she took and she denied it. So then, I got P'od all over again!!! I know, not a good thing yet, everyday gets better as I see how God's grace and mercy have been extended to me. So, how do you forgive someone who does not think they need it, or is "okay" with lying?? Yes, I know to forgive others also puts us to rest.
"as an unbeliever to you, I'm pretty sure?"
The way I see it is that a sister in Christ, that has done you wrong would step up to own it. She has never done that. I can only say that a TRUE sister in Christ would not act the way she does and do the things she does and lies the way she does. I will not say she is not saved-even tho I just kind of did
"penance" I thought that was Jesus job

 

[Nancy]

i'd be careful about jumping to a conclusion there, as the kind of dependency you describe is not codependency wadr. Interdependency is healthy, and codependents often claim independence. I'm essentially copypasting here from Beattie fwiw

Would you be offended if someone regifted a gift you gave them? Or there are some other Qs that might reveal this

Sry, talking from my ignorance,
I thought co-dependence and in-dependence were like, opposites...I did not do my homework
And no, I would not be offended if my gift were re-gifted. As long as someone can use the gift, and as long as someone is gifted it all good! I suppose tho, it that gift were something that wee meant to be personal then...hmm, I would might maybe be a tad offended. Dunno.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, totally dif from the philandering...am I de-railing? sry if I am

ha i am surely the last guy should be making a comment there lol

Well...the call did not come until a week later when I simply said, 'C

but what did she say?

 

[bbyrd009]

He called me later that night and told me he asked her about the things she took and she denied it. So then, I got P'od all over again!!! I know, not a good thing yet, everyday gets better as I see how God's grace and mercy have been extended to me. So, how do you forgive someone who does not think they need it, or is "okay" with lying?? Yes, I know to forgive others also puts us to rest.

ha well theoretically anyway, right

So, there's a lot I can't say bc I'm typing with a pencil eraser and a magnifying glass here, but is it safe to say you have lost your friend? Does she even go to your congregation anymore?
Would you rather have the friend or the stuff? Ppl often take stuff bc they feel,inferiormto the other, you, and not bc they want the stuff i guess.

Hard to forgive her bc she is not living up to your expectations prolly, see; so if you were to change your expectations, expect her to rob you now, see how i could paint a pitcher where you might even get POed if she didn't rob you, like you made a bet or something maybe lol.

Anyway, that is a tough situation, and FWIW I'll say that she got everything she wanted from the situation as soon as you lost your composure, see, at least most likely. Strong probability, anyway. How valuable/resealable was the stuff would tell me more tho.

But you have not forgiven her yet, and i would work on that tbh. Bc she has your power (worship, even) until you do. The forgiveness is not for her at all, it is strictly for you. That is where your battle is, right, bc see if you wanna battle her like a real Roman then get cameras and proof so you will have facts and be justified to others, imo.

Personally i would...i might give her the keys to my place and ask her to babysit my pets for the weekend or something, depending upon whether you want to keep her as a friend or not, but if you want to drive her away--and prolly split your congregation too--bam bring it to them next! But don't expect the resolution that you imagine, ok, if she is still even going there

 

[bbyrd009]

"as an unbeliever to you"
The way I see it is that a sister in Christ, that has done you wrong would step up to own it. She has never done that. I can only say that a TRUE sister in Christ would not act the way she does and do the things she does and lies the way she does. I will not say she is not saved-even tho I just kind of did

well, Saved means something diff to you and me right now, so all i can really say at the moment is that she is the god in this, a baal in this case i guess, and she is the one got what she wanted. You wanna mess her up, and get The Hand? Give her your keys

 

[bbyrd009]

"penance" I thought that was Jesus job

penance is straight from hell, ok, it is the exact opposite of forgiveness i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Sry, talking from my ignorance,
I thought co-dependence and in-dependence were like, opposites...I did not do my homework
And no, I would not be offended if my gift were re-gifted. As long as someone can use the gift, and as long as someone is gifted it all good! I suppose tho, it that gift were something that wee meant to be personal then...hmm, I would might maybe be a tad offended. Dunno.

what if the gift were to a 3 year old

 

[Windmillcharge]

That one is obvious to us, but seems to me like we then go on to extract "i am my brother's keeper" from that, what is sort of inferred, iow?

Of course it is inferred, it is why I said the whole bible teaches Christian morality.