The Garden of Eden

[Robert Gwin]

I won't tempt God by saying I know, when I do not. I do believe that each believer can see more than when he first believed if... yes if, he has continued to seek first things firsts according to God.

The Apostle Paul includes himself when he writes of seeing as if through darkened glass... in other words, with something less than what men would call 20/20 vision.

But Paul also speaks of a "face-to- face" time. Are we on the approach to that face-to-face? We do need to be...now! Today is the day that the Lord hath made!

My son did that...but then he married a woman with a pregnant daughter. Neither parent would or could properly care for that boy. My son took on the responsibility of bringing up that neglected boy, now 12 years old. That boy has been a blessing to both my son and his wife as well as for my wife and me. We should be slow to decide things for God. Consider why Abraham had a son named Ismael..!
No, we do not know more than what God has revealed to us. What did God already know before He revealed anything to any man?

...Which means dealing with God! Time is, however, relevant to men, unless and until, a man becomes that much like Him...:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Jehovah recognizes capability as we can see in the parable of talents, but all Christians based on their capabilities press on to maturity, and no doubt we will continue to do so for an eternity. No Christian knows Jehovah more on the day they learned about Him, than they do at the present time. Quite frankly Amad, that simple does not make any sense at all sir. I hope I misunderstood what you are saying.

 

[amadeus]

Jehovah recognizes capability as we can see in the parable of talents, but all Christians based on their capabilities press on to maturity, and no doubt we will continue to do so for an eternity. No Christian knows Jehovah more on the day they learned about Him, than they do at the present time. Quite frankly Amad, that simple does not make any sense at all sir. I hope I misunderstood what you are saying.

Sorry I did not intend to cause confusion. I am tired physically and my brain is dulled as a result. I may talk with you later.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes maam, I am suggesting that it was not placed there to foreshadow Christ. You and I agree that Proverbs 8 is not speaking of wisdom itself, rather it is speaking about Jesus. Many faiths recognize that as well, and we use one of it's verses to show that Jesus was created, v22. The beginning of His way was speaking of the creation.

The Bible states that Jehovah knows the finale from the beginning, and I believe that, but think of what that means if God placed that tree there to foreshadow Christ, that would mean He would know that Adam would sin prior to making him. If that is actually the fact, it would mean that God was responsible for all the injustice, torture, pain, disgusting things that have happened since. If that is so, it will be revealed during the millennial reign of Christ, and I will side with satan in the end, if I even make it till then.

We teach that although Jehovah has the power to have foreseen it, He has selective foreknowledge, and was not aware that Adam would sin prior to His creating him, nor up to the time of the sin itself.

we possibly see it differently. You don’t think God and Jesus Christ are one…or have i misunderstood? I heard a sermon the other day on an OT verse where God said “I’ve seen your tears”. That could mean He sees when we cry but it also can mean (Imo) God has experienced tears …for example ‘Jesus wept’. How God is very familiar with our tears or weeping. Another passage that has stuck with me the past couple days is John 2:20-25 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? [21] But he spake of the temple of his body. [22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. [23] Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. [24] But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, [25] And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

again ‘because he knew all men’ and ‘for he knew what was in man’ could mean all-knowing yes…for example when Jesus Christ would tell them what they lacked as he could read their hearts…but also knowing what is in man could come by personal experience with and in flesh. So for me to diminish or to try too hard to separate God from Christ is to take away He was tempted as we are but overcome…having a high priest over the house of God who is familiar with suffering? Notice they saw the miracles he did and believed but he didn’t commit himself to them knowing what is in man.

 

[Robert Gwin]

we possibly see it differently. You don’t think God and Jesus Christ are one…or have i misunderstood? I heard a sermon the other day on an OT verse where God said “I’ve seen your tears”. That could mean He sees when we cry but it also can mean (Imo) God has experienced tears …for example ‘Jesus wept’. How God is very familiar with our tears or weeping. Another passage that has stuck with me the past couple days is John 2:20-25 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? [21] But he spake of the temple of his body. [22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. [23] Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. [24] But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, [25] And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

again ‘because he knew all men’ and ‘for he knew what was in man’ could mean all-knowing yes…for example when Jesus Christ would tell them what they lacked as he could read their hearts…but also knowing what is in man could come by personal experience with and in flesh. So for me to diminish or to try too hard to separate God from Christ is to take away He was tempted as we are but overcome…having a high priest over the house of God who is familiar with suffering? Notice they saw the miracles he did and believed but he didn’t commit himself to them knowing what is in man.

Hi Vicky, Jesus said I and the Father are one at Jn 10:30. He explained it as well in Jn chap 17. If you are saying Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah, then yes we are in disagreement, what is your understanding on how they are one?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi Vicky, Jesus said I and the Father are one at Jn 10:30. He explained it as well in Jn chap 17. If you are saying Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah, then yes we are in disagreement, what is your understanding on how they are one?

“What is your understanding on how they are one?” That is a big question…to me it is like asking how is there many members but one body. Romans 12:4-5 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: [5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

 

[Robert Gwin]

“What is your understanding on how they are one?” That is a big question…to me it is like asking how is there many members but one body. Romans 12:4-5 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: [5] So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Yes maam, I think you explained it well. We are all one, although Jesus has true claim because he is sinless, but we can be one in that group through his sacrifice. Jesus himself explained it best at Jn 17:
20-22) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

I am so happy that we are in agreement on this Vicky.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes maam, I think you explained it well. We are all one, although Jesus has true claim because he is sinless, but we can be one in that group through his sacrifice. Jesus himself explained it best at Jn 17:
20-22) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

I am so happy that we are in agreement on this Vicky.

I don’t know. My mind goes all over the place. Speaking of the tree of Life makes me consider the similarity to Adam and Eve being swayed another way in the garden. Did they lack faith in God? Did they lack a willingness to suffer in the way being tempted to eat instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Their being tempted “allured” reminds me of
2 Peter 2:18-22 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. [19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

the following …could the same be said of the serpent in the garden? Could the same be said of Genesis 3:2-5 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Could it be said the serpent promises them freedom and Liberty while he is the servant of corruption where whom a man is overcome the same is brought in bondage? Why did Jesus Christ refer to “serpents”?
‘While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.’

what mostly stands out though is “it had been better for them not to have known the way” and Christ saying He is the way in John 14:6-9 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. [7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. [8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. [9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Does the word support “for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness” where Christ said he is the way “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

what is the holy command I wonder …was the holy command given in The garden to Adam and Eve? Did they turn from it? Or was it better they never knew the way then to turn from it once they knew the way?

how can it be the tree of Life does not foreshadow Christ who showed ‘manifest’ the way to the Father? Without excuse?
Romans 1:16-20 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Does the word support “for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness” where Christ said he is the way “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” ?? Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I don’t know. My mind goes all over the place. Speaking of the tree of Life makes me consider the similarity to Adam and Eve being swayed another way in the garden. Did they lack faith in God? Did they lack a willingness to suffer in the way being tempted to eat instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Their being tempted “allured” reminds me of
2 Peter 2:18-22 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. [19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

the following …could the same be said of the serpent in the garden? Could the same be said of Genesis 3:2-5 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Could it be said the serpent promises them freedom and Liberty while he is the servant of corruption where whom a man is overcome the same is brought in bondage? Why did Jesus Christ refer to “serpents”?
‘While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.’

what mostly stands out though is “it had been better for them not to have known the way” and Christ saying He is the way in John 14:6-9 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. [7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. [8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. [9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Does the word support “for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness” where Christ said he is the way “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

what is the holy command I wonder …was the holy command given in The garden to Adam and Eve? Did they turn from it? Or was it better they never knew the way then to turn from it once they knew the way?

how can it be the tree of Life does not foreshadow Christ who showed ‘manifest’ the way to the Father? Without excuse?
Romans 1:16-20 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Does the word support “for it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness” where Christ said he is the way “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” ?? Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There are a lot of questions we have that simply cannot be answered at this time Vicky, but God does give us what we need to know to please Him, and to receive the gift of everlasting life. No one really knows why the tree of life, or the knowledge of good and bad were placed in the Garden of Eden, but the Bible teaches their existence. To my understanding there had never been any sin or any death prior to their creation, what would be the need.

Although the creation account and what went wrong is very vague and only a few chapters of the Bible are devoted to it, we now see the need for them. You can look at those two trees as actually representing satan and Jehovah, the two God's opposing each other. because of Adam and Eve getting involved with satan, they needed a tree of life, Jehovah, to counteract what they had done. The thing we do know is, that Adam and Eve were tested, why? Who knows! But we know they failed the test. We also know that there will be another test as well before we gain everlasting life, just as they had to be tested. At the end of the millennial reign of Christ, when all of us have been restored to perfection, equal to Adam and Eve prior to their sin, then satan will be loosened out of his prison to tempt mankind once again. If we successively ward off his attacks, we will come to life at that time Rev 20:5

 

[Lambano]

What happened to the Garden of Eden after the Great flood?

They paved paradise,
And put in a parking lot.
(Joni Mitchell, Big Yellow Taxi)

Sorry; couldn't resist.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No one really knows why the tree of life, or the knowledge of good and bad were placed in the Garden of Eden, but the Bible teaches their existence. To my understanding there had never been any sin or any death prior to their creation, what would be the need.

Although the creation account and what went wrong is very vague and only a few chapters of the Bible are devoted to it, we now see the need for them. You can look at those two trees as actually representing satan and Jehovah, the two God's opposing each other. because of Adam and Eve getting involved with satan, they needed a tree of life, Jehovah, to counteract what they had done.

but think of what that means if God placed that tree there to foreshadow Christ, that would mean He would know that Adam would sin prior to making him.

“No one really knows why the tree of life, or the knowledge of good and bad were placed in the Garden of Eden, but the Bible teaches their existence. To my understanding there had never been any sin or any death prior to their creation,”

“because of Adam and Eve getting involved with satan, they needed a tree of life, Jehovah, to counteract what they had done.”

did He know they would need a tree of Life prior? I’m curious what harm you see there is in the tree of Life as a foreshadowing of Christ?

 

[Robert Gwin]

“No one really knows why the tree of life, or the knowledge of good and bad were placed in the Garden of Eden, but the Bible teaches their existence. To my understanding there had never been any sin or any death prior to their creation,”

“because of Adam and Eve getting involved with satan, they needed a tree of life, Jehovah, to counteract what they had done.”

did He know they would need a tree of Life prior? I’m curious what harm you see there is in the tree of Life as a foreshadowing of Christ?

I don't see any harm in it Vicky, although I would think that since all live comes from and is sustained by Jehovah it would more fittingly represent Him, in the coming Kingdom as it was originally it represents everlasting life in reality.