The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift! 2 Cor. 9:15

I believe this gift is Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that He GAVE His only begotten Son.
Jesus not only saves us by His grace by faith (Titus 3:3-5), but He also saves us by the Sanctification Process (to live a holy life), as well (Ephesians 5:25-27) (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5).

 

[RLT63]

If you were to read again the beginning of Romans 7, the context or framework is the Old Law.

#1. “…brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)” (Romans 7:1).​

#2. “we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” (Romans 7:6).​

Therefore, the struggle Paul is talking about in Romans 7:14-24 is in reference to his time when he was Saul in the false Pharisee religion under the 613 Laws of Moses. Paul was sinning or in the flesh because he was wrongfully under the Old Law.

Some quick points to consider:

#1. Christians cannot be justified by the Laws of Moses (Acts 13:39).​

#2. Gentile Christians were told by the Jerusalem council that they did not have to keep the Laws of Moses as a whole (Acts 15:5) (Acts 15:24).​

#3. The Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).​

#4. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom letting us know that the Law and the priesthood had ended (Matthew 27:51).​

#5. Jesus said that the cup of the fruit of the vine represented the blood that would be shed for the New Testament (Luke 22:20).​

#6. Jesus‘ death starts the New Covenant (For a testament is not in force unless the testator dies - Hebrews 9:16-17).​

So when Paul talks about being ”in the flesh” in the next chapter (Romans 8) he is referring to how one seeks to be justified by the keeping of the Old Law (Which is no more) (Like keeping circumcision, dietary laws, sabbaths, holy days, etcetera).

Galatians 4:9-11

​

9 “…whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?​

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.​

11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”​

As we can see in this above passage, Paul was afraid for the Galatian believers because they were keeping days, months, and years (Which is the keeping of the ceremonial days exclusive to the Laws of Moses, i.e. the Old Law).

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4).​

Paul was saying this because people were thinking they had to be circumcised to be saved.

Acts 15:1​

”And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”​

​

Galatians 5:2​

”Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”​

Circumcision was given to Abraham and his people and it was given to those under the Laws of Moses.
Circumcision was not given to us by Jesus and His followers.

In Romans 7:14-24: Paul wanted to keep the “righteousness of the Law” (or the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law) (Like do not steal, do not covet, etcetera), but he was unable to do so because he was wrongfully under the Old Covenant Law system as a whole (Instead of being under the New Covenant way).

Romans 8:2 says:

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”​

Two laws are mentioned in this verse above here.

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. New Covenant Law), and:​

#2. The Law of Sin and Death (Old Covenant Law or the Laws of Moses).​

Note: It’s called the Law of Sin and Death because you could be put to death physically for disobeying certain aspects of the Laws of Moses (Which is not the case with the laws of Christ because Christians are to love their enemies and not stone them with physical death).

Romans 8:4 says:

”That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”​

We have to walk after the Spirit (Which is only made possible after one accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and or they believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and they then seek to obey the commands that come from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament).

One way the righteousness of the Law can be fulfilled by walking after the Spirit is by doing the following…

Romans 13:8-10

8 “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.​

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”​

New Covenant loving (like helping your brother in need, or helping the poor with a pure heart of love) fulfills all the requirements of the Old Law (Even though the Old Law is technically no more). In other words, if one wants to keep the Old Law, the only way to do it today (Because we are under the New Covenant) is by loving your neighbor and not by keeping all 613 Laws of Moses.

In Romans 7:14-24: Paul wanted to keep this Moral Law in Romans 13:8-10 but he could not do so because he was trying to keep all 613 laws of Moses (and he did not realize that Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us - Colossians 2:14).

Paul didn’t say “ Oh wretched man that I used to be.” he used the present tense. You deceive yourself if you say you have no sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul didn’t say “ Oh wretched man that I used to be.” he used the present tense. You deceive yourself if you say you have no sin.

It’s a form of writing or speech called the “Historical Present.”

Historical present - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to the article: It says, “The New Testament, written in Koine Greek in the 1st century CE, is notable for use of the historical present, particularly in the Gospel of Mark.”

In fact, people speak and write this way today and even throughout history.

Yes. I understand that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

But I know this will probably not convince you because you already have your mind set to see only a “sin and still be saved” interpretation.
So if that’s what you want to see… then that is what you will see in the text (Despite the many other warnings given to us in Scripture that tell us how we cannot have a mindset to sin and make it into the Kingdom). But hey; If you want to take a gamble on serving sin and God, be my guest. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. You are either a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin. There is no middle ground of service between God and sin. There are only two kingdoms you can serve. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits. So if one does evil fruit, then they are not a good tree. In other words, Paul was clearly speaking as a Pharisee (using the Historical Present).

Jesus basically said a slave (i.e. a slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (i.e. Will not abide in the house of Christ) (See: John 8:34-35), and then see Matthew 13:41-42.

 

[RLT63]

It’s a form of writing or speech called the “Historical Present.”

Historical present - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to the article: It says, “The New Testament, written in Koine Greek in the 1st century CE, is notable for use of the historical present, particularly in the Gospel of Mark.”

In fact, people speak and write this way today and even throughout history.

Yes. I understand that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

But I know this will probably not convince you because you already have your mind set to see only a “sin and still be saved” interpretation.
So if that’s what you want to see… then that is what you will see in the text (Despite the many other warnings given to us in Scripture that tell us how we cannot have a mindset to sin and make it into the Kingdom). But hey; If you want to take a gamble on serving sin and God, be my guest. Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. You are either a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin. There is no middle ground of service between God and sin. There are only two kingdoms you can serve. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits. So if one does evil fruit, then they are not a good tree. In other words, Paul was clearly speaking as a Pharisee (using the Historical Present).

Jesus basically said a slave (i.e. a slave to sin) will not abide in the house forever (i.e. Will not abide in the house of Christ) (See: John 8:34-35), and then see Matthew 13:41-42.

You don’t seem to understand I’m not saying it’s okay to sin. I’m saying no one is perfect and the idea that you can be sinless is not Biblical. It doesn’t matter what tense you put it in.

 

[-Phil]

You don’t seem to understand I’m not saying it’s okay to sin. I’m saying no one is perfect and the idea that you can be sinless is not Biblical. It doesn’t matter what tense you put it in.

No one is imperfect.
You yourself are already perfect, whole and complete.
But believe weird conjecture apparently.
Perfection isn’t a duality.

 

[HIM]

No one is imperfect.
You yourself are already perfect, whole and complete.
But believe weird conjecture apparently.
Perfection isn’t a duality.

He that does righteous is righteous EVEN AS He is righteous.

 

[HIM]

You don’t seem to understand I’m not saying it’s okay to sin. I’m saying no one is perfect and the idea that you can be sinless is not Biblical. It doesn’t matter what tense you put it in.

That is not scriptural it is your opinion. God says different.

 

[mailmandan]

You don’t seem to understand I’m not saying it’s okay to sin. I’m saying no one is perfect and the idea that you can be sinless is not Biblical. It doesn’t matter what tense you put it in.

Amen! (Ecclesiates 7:20; Romans 3:10-12; 23; 1 John 1:8-10)

 

[HIM]

Paul didn’t say “ Oh wretched man that I used to be.” he used the present tense. You deceive yourself if you say you have no sin.

Romans 8:2 Paul states that he had been set free from the law of sin in chapter 7, not being able to help what he does. For he that commits sin is a servant to it. But if the Son shall set us free, free we are indeed. That the righteousness of the law maybe FULFILLED in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

 

[-Phil]

He that does righteous is righteous EVEN AS He is righteous.

A ‘doer’ is actually the believing of thoughts, such as that there is an “individual” (doing).
Absolute perfection!
Rejoice!

 

[HIM]

A ‘doer’ is actually the believing of thoughts, such as that there is an “individual” (doing).
Absolute perfection!
Rejoice!

No the text says he that does righteousness is righteous EVEN as he is righteous. Even as is a direct comparison. Since the one who does righteousness is righteous just like Jesus is righteous. How was Jesus righteous?

 

[-Phil]

No the text says he that does righteousness is righteous EVEN as he is righteous. Even as is a direct comparison. Since the one who does righteousness is righteous just like Jesus is righteous. How was Jesus righteous?

Where is ‘the one who does righteousness’ in your actual direct experience?
Try to physically speaking, point your finger directly at what you’re thinking of and talking about.

 

[HIM]

Where is ‘the one who does righteousness’ in your actual direct experience?
Try to physically speaking, point your finger directly at what you’re thinking of and talking about.

1 John 3 says he that does righteousness is righteous EVEN as he is righteous. Even as is a direct comparison. Since the one who does righteousness is righteous just like Jesus is righteous. How was Jesus righteous?

 

[-Phil]

1 John 3 says he that does righteousness is righteous EVEN as he is righteous. Even as is a direct comparison. Since the one who does righteousness is righteous just like Jesus is righteous. How was Jesus righteous?

What you’re talking about doesn’t actually exist. Only you can check.

 

[HIM]

What you’re talking about doesn’t actually exist. Only you can check.

We see. Maybe a doctor can help. We will pray for you that you get help be healed

 

[RLT63]

Romans 8:2 Paul states that he had been set free from the law of sin in chapter 7, not being able to help what he does. For he that commits sin is a servant to it. But if the Son shall set us free, free we are indeed. That the righteousness of the law maybe FULFILLED in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

James 5:16, 1John 1:9

 

[HIM]

James 5:16, 1John 1:9

Neither of those text speak for Roman 8:2. Take care

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You don’t seem to understand I’m not saying it’s okay to sin. I’m saying no one is perfect and the idea that you can be sinless is not Biblical. It doesn’t matter what tense you put it in.

In Romans 7:14:24: It does matter what tense you put on it because if Paul was speaking as a Pharisee (as Saul) in that he would be under the 613 Laws of Moses, he would have been seeking to justify himself by the Law (Torah) and thus he would have been fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4), and he would need Jesus Christ and His grace to be saved. As I said the context of the chapter starts off with addressing those who know the LAW or the Torah (Please see Romans 7:1). So this is the framework or context Paul is talking within.

Romans 8:2 says, “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

TWO Laws are mentioned here.

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (New Covenant Law).​

#2. Law of Sin and Death (The Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses because you could be put to death physically for disobeying it).​

What is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Romans 8:1 tells us.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”​

Romans 7:6 says “we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

Walking after the Spirit is the New Covenant way in serving and we were not to walk after the flesh (being under the Old Law) or justifying some kind of sin (So as not to be under the Condemnation).

To paraphrase the Wikipedia article, the New Testament is filled with Historical Present usage and the gospel Mark is an excellent example. So to say that this could not be Historical Present in Romans 7:14-24 is not only immoral (as an attempt to justify sin), but it is not in line with what we do read in the whole of the New Testament. You want to enforce your Modern understanding on grammar usage so as to justify the idea that Paul struggled with sin and was saved (When that runs contrary to the whole of the Bible). But God’s grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). If the Bible is indeed not saying you can sin and be saved and yet you twist it to say that, then you are justifying sin (Whether you agree with that view or not; It simply is the reality). In other words, I would not want to take the chance at risking my soul in justifying sin and I would want to always do the right thing with the LORD Jesus Christ. To say we can sin and still be saved means God would have to agree with your sin and that’s not possible because God is holy, just, and good.

Stop and think for a moment.

1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ.
Jesus never had a mind to justify or condone any kind of sin because He is God Almighty in the flesh (Second person of the Godhead or Trinity). So… if Jesus never justified sin or the idea that He must sin again, then we are to have the same mind that He had, as well. That’s what your not getting.

 

[HIM]

In Romans 7:14:24: It does matter what tense you put on it because if Paul was speaking as a Pharisee (as Saul) in that he would be under the 613 Laws of Moses, he would have been seeking to justify himself by the Law (Torah) and thus he would have been fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4), and he would need Jesus Christ and His grace to be saved. As I said the context of the chapter starts off with addressing those who know the LAW or the Torah. So this is the framework or context Paul is talking within.

Romans 8:2 says, “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

TWO Laws are mentioned here.

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (New Covenant Law).​

#2. Law of Sin and Death (The Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses because you could be put to death physically for disobeying it).​

What is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus?

Romans 8:1 tells us.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”​

Romans 7:6 says “we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

Walking after the Spirit is the New Covenant way in serving and we were not to walk after the flesh (being under the Old Law) or justifying some kind of sin (So as not to be under the Condemnation).

According to Wikipedia, the New Testament is filled with Historical Present usage and the gospel Mark is one good example. So to say that this could not be Historical Present in Romans 7:14-24 is not only immoral (as an attempt to justify sin), but it is not in line with what we do read in the whole of the New Testament. You want to enforce your Modern understanding on grammar usage so as to justify the idea that Paul struggled with sin and was saved (When that runs contrary to the whole of the Bible). But God’s grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). If the Bible is indeed not saying you can sin and be saved and yet you twist it to say that, then you are justifying sin (Whether you agree with that view or not; It simply is the reality). In other words, I would not want to take the chance at risking my soul in justifying sin and I would want to always do the right thing with the LORD Jesus Christ. To say we can sin and still be saved means God would have to agree with your sin and that’s not possible because God is holy, just, and good.

Stop and think for a moment.

1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ.
Jesus never had a mind to justify or condone any kind of sin because He is God Almighty in the flesh (Second person of the Godhead or Trinity). So… if Jesus never justified sin or the idea that He must sin again, then we are to have the same mind that He had, as well. That’s what your not getting.

The Law of sin is not the law of Moses. The law of sin is that Paul can't help himself. That sin took him over and he was in bondage to it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen! (Ecclesiates 7:20; Romans 3:10-12; 23; 1 John 1:8-10)

As for Ecclesiastes 7:20:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 is written during the Old Testament times. So the answer is Hebrews 11:40 that says, “God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”​

​

In addition, Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:​

​

Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT​

"There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."​

​

Mistakes would be in reference to minor faults that would not necessarily condemn a person (and not other sins that would lead to hellfire or condemnation of one’s soul like say murder, theft, etcetera). 1 John 5 says there is a sin that does not lead to death. An example would be worrying (And not all out fear of hopelessness). Luke 12:22-34 teaches that to worry is to have little faith and it is not a transgression whereby the LORD is telling them to repent or they will perish. So Ecclesiastes 7:20 cannot be used as a license to commit the kinds of sins that lead to spiritual death under the New Covenant. Granted, Christians today will desire to obey the LORD in all things and overcome (even the minor fault of worrying).​

As for Romans 3:10-12, Romans 3:23:

Romans 3:10-12, and Romans 3:23 is not talking about the present tense walk of the believer but it is referring to our past old life before we became a Christian. This has to be the interpretative understanding because Romans 3:11 says, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” So if you take these verses as applying to the present tense walk of the believer, then you must conclude that you don’t seek after God and you have no understanding. But surely you are not saying that (of course). You are only cherry picking the verses you want to be applied to you to defend your false belief in justifying occasional sin while under God’s grace.​

As for 1 John 1:8:

1 John 1:8 is infamous among the sin and still be saved Christians (Which is popular today). Isaiah 45:7 can also be read in the wrong way and many do. They believe God directly creates evil when that is not the case. The problem is that the context of 1 John 1:8 does not support you. Nowhere does the chapter or the following chapters make a case about how you cannot help but to sin and so why bother to overcome sin. The chapter and the following chapters makes a case for how we must obey God or we are not of Him. 1 John 1:9 even talks about how you can be cleansed from ALL unrighteousness by confessing sin. So obviously 1 John 1:8 is not a defense for how you must sin again or that you are in sin right now in the present tense and yet you are saved. John says in 1 John 2:26, “These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.” 1 John 1:8 would be a false belief of those who are trying to seduce the brethren into thinking sin does not exist or it is an illusion because 1 John 1:10 is a warning to not deny that we have never sinned in the past (Which is a denial of the existence of sin in general). So 1 John 1:8 is saying if we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist at all or it is an illusion) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. The proper way to deal with sin is not to think it does not exist whatsoever but to confess it to the Lord Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). But John thinks it possible to overcome sin because he tells the brethren to “sin not” (1 John 2:1). This is not possible if they must declare they are in sin in the present tense. So the context contradicts your interpretation. Sure, you may take the “practice sin” interpretation that came later in Modern Bibles, but this is false. God does not want you to sin at all. Why? He says “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:16). 1 Corinthians 2:16 says, we have the mind of Christ. Jesus never justified sin or thought He could sin and still be saved like you believe. Why? Because Jesus is God (second person of the Godhead or Trinity). So if Jesus did not have a mindset to justify sin, then neither should you if you believe you have the mind of Christ (According to Scripture).​