The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[bbyrd009]

What you are doing is….

not deflecting, as you are doing constantly, wadr

 

[RLT63]

First, you are quoting a reply I made to Bbyrd009. We were talking about his disagreement over how the word “Word” cannot possibly refer also to the Scriptures (or the Bible) in addition to Jesus Christ (Which is a brief side issue). This article is dealing with your disagreement primarily over King James Only-ism. Again, these topics are not even the topics of the thread. You both have an art for wanting to disrupt another person’s thread (with little care or respect for his topic). Second, in reply to your link: Mr Will Kinney makes a great case against Mr Price’s nonsense.

Another King James Bible Believer

The King James Bible.

brandplucked.webs.com

But again, this whole side issue of not believing in a perfect Bible that exists today that we can hold in our hands is a diversion to when Johann had disagreed with the plain words in English for 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24. He prefers to select some definition he prefers by acting like he spent his entire life studying the original languages and claiming superiority over the 47 translators on the King James Bible (with many of them actually knowing the Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek). I helped to show Johann how Calvinism is wrong by just using a plain and simple English Bible. I am not sure if he reverted back to Calvinism or not, but the point here is that I did not play any game using the Original Languages with him (Whereby I was attempting to undo what the Bible says in English). The point here is that most come up with an idea in their mind of what they want to be true or they latch on to popular Christianity and their way of thinking instead of just reading and believing the Bible for themselves (With the help of God by way of prayer). Most just follow their own thoughts or the popular thoughts of others. This is at the heart of why many today reject overcoming sin in this life in the Bible. It is man who desires to sin. God does not want you to sin; And neither is God (the Maker of the Heavens and the Earth) powerless to help man in this life to achieve that goal. There is nothing greater than God. Sin is not greater than God. God is more powerful than sin. But men like sin, and they seek to defend it. That’s what this thread is really about (Whether somebody justifies a little bit of sin or a lot of sin - it makes no difference). When one has a mindset to justify sin on any level, they are agreeing with the First Adam and not with the Last Adam (Jesus Christ).

Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Obviously many here do not have the mind of Christ because they defend how they must sin a little again.
Yet, Jesus never justified sin ever (Because He is God).

Sorry I interrupted your very amusing conversation with bbird. I like the KJV but I am not King James Only and I like the NKJV. There is no need to argue about it your position is clear. Good luck with your conviction to live a sinless life. Paul, Peter and James couldn’t do it but it is admirable that you try. I’ll leave you to your conversation with bbird. Good luck

 

[HIM]

When someone says “Thus saith the Lord “ it makes me wonder why God would speak in King James’ English

Why if that is the Bible they read from? Are We His ambassadors? Is it God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure? Is it In Him we live, move and have are being? If he is not speaking through us who is?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry I interrupted your very amusing conversation with bbird.

Actually, I am planning not to really address his posts anymore for various reasons that I would rather not say here so as to be kind.

I like the KJV but I am not King James Only and I like the NKJV. There is no need to argue about it your position is clear.

You have your reasons for believing the way you do (as I do for mine). I believe I can defend my position biblically, though. Whereas your position I cannot really see how that is possible. Also, comparing the origin of the translation with the KJB vs. the NKJV is like night and day. We can see the blood of the saints leading up to the KJB, and a failed attempt to destroy the KJB and it’s creators. The KJB was created for the noble cause of uniting two factions and so that everyone could have the Word of God, and not just a particular religious faction or elite. Yet, the NKJV is not founded upon origins that is as noble because they seek you to look to the Nestle and Aland footnotes. It is a bridge Bible to rely on the Modern versions as one’s base, and or to doubt certain verses in the Bible. If there were no footnotes in the NKJV, and it did not base it on the Alexandrian texts mingled in with the Textus Receptus, then that would be a different story. The Wikipedia article on the NKJV is misinformed or incorrect in that the New Testament is soley based on the Textus Receptus. If that was the case then the NKJV would not agree with Modern Bibles (Based on Alexandrian manuscripts) over what the KJB says.

Good luck with your conviction to live a sinless life.

There is no such thing as luck. It is God who blesses and who makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. God is good and sometimes we cannot always see His greater plan for good working in our lives. But again… believers need to go through a Sanctification Process to live a holy life here on this Earth. It’s not an overnight thing. It takes time to grow and learn and to get there. So again… I am not advocating the viewpoint of other Sinless Perfectionsts who erroneously claim one can be Sinlessly Perfect right away or immediately on day 1 of service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, I did not write the Bible. God did. His Word clearly teaches that we are to be perfect in this life.

“The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

“Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Notice. We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Not just some filthiness of the flesh and spirit. It’s not ALMOST cleansing ourselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

I just read the Bible and believe it.
You cannot do that because your thinking or the thinking of others rules your mind to then seek to make the Bible fit those thoughts.

Paul, Peter and James couldn’t do it but it is admirable that you try.

We don’t have a video camera and or record of their entire lives to truly know if they had reached a state of perfection towards the end or not. Granted, Paul says he finished the race, and he fought the good fight (2 Timothy 4:7); This his implies he may have reached that state of perfection with the Lord (while he was yet still alive).

I’ll leave you to your conversation with bbird. Good luck

I am really interested in conversing with him anymore, though. I can only take so much in talking to certain people (especially when they reject the plain meaning of basic things in Scripture).

Anyways, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you both (even if we disagree strongly on the matters of the faith).

 

[RLT63]

Actually, I am planning not to really address his posts anymore for various reasons that I would rather not say here so as to be kind.



You have your reasons for believing the way you do (as I do for mine). I believe I can defend my position biblically, though. Whereas your position I cannot really see how that is possible. Also, comparing the origin of the translation with the KJB vs. the NKJV is like night and day. We can see the blood of the saints leading up to the KJB, and a failed attempt to destroy the KJB and it’s creators. The KJB was created for the noble cause of uniting two factions and so that everyone could have the Word of God, and not just a particular religious faction or elite. Yet, the NKJV is not founded upon origins that is as noble because they seek you to look to the Nestle and Aland footnotes. It is a bridge Bible to rely on the Modern versions as one’s base, and or to doubt certain verses in the Bible. If there were no footnotes in the NKJV, and it did not base it on the Alexandrian texts mingled in with the Textus Receptus, then that would be a different story. The Wikipedia article on the NKJV is misinformed or incorrect in that the New Testament is soley based on the Textus Receptus. If that was the case then the NKJV would not agree with Modern Bibles (Based on Alexandrian manuscripts) over what the KJB says.


There is no such thing as luck. It is God who blesses and who makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. God is good and sometimes we cannot always see His greater plan for good working in our lives. But again… believers need to go through a Sanctification Process to live a holy life here on this Earth. It’s not an overnight thing. It takes time to grow and learn and to get there. So again… I am not advocating the viewpoint of other Sinless Perfectionsts who erroneously claim one can be Sinlessly Perfect right away or immediately on day 1 of service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, I did not write the Bible. God did. His Word clearly teaches that we are to be perfect in this life.

“The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

“Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Notice. We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Not just some filthiness of the flesh and spirit. It’s not ALMOST cleansing ourselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

I just read the Bible and believe it.
You cannot do that because your thinking or the thinking of others rules your mind to then seek to make the Bible fit those thoughts.



We don’t have a video camera and or record of their entire lives to truly know if they had reached a state of perfection towards the end or not. Granted, Paul says he finished the race, and he fought the good fight (2 Timothy 4:7); This his implies he may have reached that state of perfection with the Lord (while he was yet still alive).



I am really interested in conversing with him anymore, though. I can only take so much in talking to certain people (especially when they reject the plain meaning of basic things in Scripture).

Anyways, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you both (even if we disagree strongly on the matters of the faith).

The user Davy I talked to on another thread shares your view of the KJV. You may want to see Oldest and Best Really and King James Version Only threads

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The user Davy I talked to on another thread shares your view of the KJV. You may want to see Oldest and Best Really and King James Version Only threads

Davy just recently put me on ignore for my disagreeing with him on the definition that comes from a Bible dictionary that is not really founded in God’s Word that I can see.

You can check that out here.

As for the KJB threads: I will reply there. Thanks.

But the KJB is my base as you know and so that is why I believe 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 in the 1600’s English.
Different verses keep pointing to how we are to either to be perfect, or blameless, etcetera (Which is to be in this life and not the next one).

Anyways, may God’s good ways be upon you (even if we disagree).

 

[RLT63]

Davy just recently put me on ignore for my disagreeing with him on the definition that comes from a Bible dictionary that is not really founded in God’s Word that I can see.

You can check that out here.

As for the KJB threads: I will reply there. Thanks.

But the KJB is my base as you know and so that is why I believe 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 in the 1600’s English.
Different verses keep pointing to how we are to either to be perfect, or blameless, etcetera (Which is to be in this life and not the next one).

Anyways, may God’s good ways be upon you (even if we disagree).

Thank you. May God bless you and reward you for your convictions.

 

[bbyrd009]

planning not to really address his posts anymore

ha pls i mean have you addressed one yet? cherrypicked it, maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

Why if that is the Bible they read from? Are We His ambassadors? Is it God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure? Is it In Him we live, move and have are being? If he is not speaking through us who is?

not disagreeing ezackly, but Paul’s counter argument would be “when in Rome” i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I just read the Bible and believe it.
You cannot do that because your thinking or the thinking of others rules your mind to then seek to make the Bible fit those thoughts

you lie, and the truth is not in you, sorry
besides the fact that you are the accuser, i mean
but i also wish you the best of luck

fwiw your superiority complex is showing, starkly

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is the meaning of perfection in the Bible?
perfection in the Bible
ANSWER

The meaning of perfection in the Bible relates to a state of completeness or absolute wholeness. Biblical perfection involves freedom from fault, defect, or shortcoming. In the New Testament, a Greek term for “perfection” can also mean “maturity.” The Bible expresses perfection in at least three different contexts: the perfection of God, the perfection of Christ, and the perfection of humans.

Absolute perfection is a quality that belongs to God alone. Yet only in Matthew 5:48 does the Bible explicitly state that God is by nature perfect: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” As God is the perfect being, all that He does is perfect: “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4). His knowledge is perfect (Job 37:16). His way is perfect, and His Word is flawless: “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 18:30). God’s laws are also perfect (Psalm 19:7; James 1:25). The apostle Paul describes God’s will as perfect: “Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Romans 12:2).

In Hebrews 2:10, Scripture says that Jesus was made perfect through suffering: “God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation” (NLT).

As God incarnate, Jesus was already morally perfect. Christ’s suffering and death made Him “perfect” in the sense of qualifying to serve as the faultless high priest for God’s people (Hebrews 7:28). Only through suffering on the cross was Christ able to accomplish the work of redemption and become the perfect, complete, effective Savior of His people (Hebrews 5:9). Jesus was the perfect example of what it means to live in obedience to the Father’s will.

As we read in Matthew 5:48, God’s children are called to be perfect. This does not mean that humans can obtain the same holy perfection as God, for He alone is set apart in holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 99:9; Exodus 15:11). The call to be perfect is what the apostle Paul meant when he said, “Be imitators of God, as beloved children” (Ephesians 5:1, ESV). As children tend to imitate their parents, God’s children ought to imitate their Lord and reflect His perfection in the way they live.

The idea of spiritual maturity relates closely to the word perfection in the Bible. Humans are not perfect, but followers of Christ are encouraged to seek perfection: “And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing” (James 1:4, ESV). Paul said that he had not yet obtained perfection but had made it his goal: “I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me” (Philippians 3:12, NLT). Paul knew that perfection for believers would only be realized in the life to come (verses 13–21).

Perfection is a gift that humans receive through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ: “For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Under the old covenant, the priest stands and ministers before the altar day after day, offering the same sacrifices again and again, which can never take away sins. But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy” (Hebrews 10:10–14, NLT).

Another verse that is key to understanding perfection as it relates to the Christian life is 2 Corinthians 12:9: “But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.’” Through the grace God offers in Jesus Christ, Christians are perfected in weakness; through participating in the sufferings of Jesus Christ, they are conformed to His image (Matthew 5:10–12; 1 Peter 2:19–25; 3:14; 4:12–19).


Be ye therefore perfect ... - The Saviour concludes this part of the discourse by commanding his disciples to be “perfect.” This word commonly means “finished, complete, pure, holy.” Originally, it is applied to a piece of mechanism, as a machine that is complete in its parts. Applied to people, it refers to completeness of parts, or perfection, where no part is defective or wanting. Thus, Job Job_1:1 is said to be “perfect;” that is, not holy as God, or “sinless” - for fault is afterward found with him Job_9:20; Job_42:6; but his piety was “proportionate” - had a completeness of parts was consistent and regular. He exhibited his religion as a prince, a father, an individual, a benefactor of the poor. He was not merely a pious man in one place, but uniformly. He was consistent everywhere. See the notes at that passage. This is the meaning in Matthew. Be not religious merely in loving your friends and neighbors, but let your piety be shown in loving your enemies; imitate God; let your piety be “complete, proportionate, regular.” This every Christian may be; this every Christian must be.

1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
1Co 3:12 But if anyone builds upon the Foundation, whether it be with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1Co 3:13 The work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward.
1Co 3:15 But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire. [Job_23:10]

J.

The real test in theology is how is it working for you or others? Do you find yourself moving closer to God and doing more of what God commands of you? Or do you still find yourself to be the same way (Loving the things of this world, and claiming you sin every day in thought, deed, etcetera). The problem is that you are either for fighting to put away sin for good, or you are in a “love and hate relationship” with sin. This is what being double minded is all about. One can appear to want to fight against sin, and then turn around like a person who has a split personality and defends sin and how they must sin again. Again, Jesus spewed out the Lukewarm church out of his mouth. This to me sounds like what many in Christianity today teach. They teach lukewarmness. They don’t teach being on fire for God and in overcoming sin in this life as the Bible plainly teaches (Galatians 5:24) (2 Corinthians 7:1) (1 Peter 4:1-2). Many today in the church defend how they must sin again using 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 as excuses to sin (When in reality the context does not support such conclusions). Note: The context is the chapter and or the surrounding chapters. So it’s funny that many who use 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 don’t use the context to support how they must sin in the present tense. Meaning, there are no surrounding words near these pieces of Scripture that speaks of how we must sin again in the present tense.

Why?

Why? Well, it’s because they are ripping the Bible out of context to defend sin.
Anybody can make the Bible appear to say what they think it says.
Isaiah 45:7 is a classic verse used by High Calvinists to defend the idea that God directly creates evil (When that is not the case according to the context and the rest of the Bible).

 

[bbyrd009]

Different verses keep pointing to how we are to either to be perfect

”as I am perfect,” which i mean you gotta note that really nobody, zero ppl, agree with how Yah does things, right

or blameless, etcetera (Which is to be in this life and not the next one).

next one? what next one?
“I came that you might haves lives, more abundantly”
lol
i mean sry but coming from a guy who was “just telling you what the Bible said,” i mean…have you not gotten to that part yet, or what
Dust you are, and to dust you will return

 

[bbyrd009]

The real test in theology is how is it working for you or others? Do you find yourself moving closer to God and doing more of what God commands of you? Or do you still find yourself to be the same way (Loving the things of this world, and claiming you sin every day in thought, deed, etcetera). The problem is that you are either for fighting to put away sin for good, or you are in a “love and hate relationship” with sin. This is what being double minded is all about. One can appear to want to fight against sin, and then turn around like a person who has a split personality and defends sin and how they must sin again. Again, Jesus spewed out the Lukewarm church out of his mouth. This to me sounds like what many in Christianity today teach. They teach lukewarmness. They don’t teach being on fire for God and in overcoming sin in this life as the Bible plainly teaches (Galatians 5:24) (2 Corinthians 7:1) (1 Peter 4:1-2). Many today in the church defend how they must sin again using 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 as excuses to sin (When in reality the context does not support such conclusions). Note: The context is the chapter and or the surrounding chapters. So it’s funny that many who use 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 don’t use the context to support how they must sin in the present tense. Meaning, there are no surrounding words near these pieces of Scripture that speaks of how we must sin again in the present tense.

Why?

Why? Well, it’s because they are ripping the Bible out of context to defend sin.
Anybody can make the Bible appear to say what they think it says.
Isaiah 45:7 is a classic verse used by High Calvinists to defend the idea that God directly creates evil (When that is not the case according to the context and the rest of the Bible).

truly, you are an earnest person, who is prolly better hearted than me
and i feel for you when you crash and burn, ok?
fwiw its part of the process, gotta do your…well, seems to be about forty years i guess, first

 

[bbyrd009]

For example: 1 John 1:8. Please show in the context that John was trying to make a case how we all sin and we cannot help but to sin and if we claim we are not having some kind of sin in our life… we are deceived. Please. Just show me one verse besides 1 John 1:10 (Which is a denial of past sin) that defends your sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8. If you cannot do so

the problem there is that we currently adhere to completely different definitions of many of those terms, so my reply would be pretty much meaningless for you. You are right where you should be right now imo, trying your very hardest to not sin. Paul has some vv on that, but they are in code…and you wouldnt like my translation of them very much right now, i guess

anyway i came back to say that i have ass burgers, so i suspect that i am much more enamored of my opinion than you are of yours
if thats possible
it took a long time to learn how full of crap i was

 

[bbyrd009]

What you are doing is….

“I have an idea I like and prefer and so now I am going to use the Bible to defend these false ideas I prefer (That exists only in mind).”​

​

You are not trying to figure out the context and or trying to be corrected. You are focusing a laser beam on certain verses and drawing a wrong conclusion.

​

For example: 1 John 1:8. Please show in the context that John was trying to make a case how we all sin and we cannot help but to sin and if we claim we are not having some kind of sin in our life… we are deceived. Please. Just show me one verse besides 1 John 1:10 (Which is a denial of past sin) that defends your sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8. If you cannot do so…. Then you are simply ripping a verse out context to the rest of the Bible.

​

Also, believers enter the Sanctification of the Spirit in order to EVENTUALLY reach a state of Sinless Perfection in this life.
It takes time to learn and grow. Nowhere am I stating that a believer is instantly a super saint the first day of their service to the Lord Jesus Christ. It takes time to grow and learn God’s Word and apply to your life. Nobody here is claiming they are a super saint instantly although there are some believers who do hold to that viewpoint (of whom I disagree with).

man, i became a Super Saint Instantly, i think thats even a pretty good meme for what i was being called then lol, i did the “I Found It!” campaign—yall member that one? Calling unsuspecting homo ners at the dinner hour and hitting them with the shpiel? lol
may Yah have mercy on me
ya, i was gonnado Big Things for Jesus…
most humble guy you ever met, too

 

[marks]

the problem there is that we currently adhere to completely different definitions of many of those terms, so my reply would be pretty much meaningless for you. You are right where you should be right now imo, trying your very hardest to not sin. Paul has some vv on that, but they are in code…and you wouldnt like my translation of them very much right now, i guess

anyway i came back to say that i have ass burgers, so i suspect that i am much more enamored of my opinion than you are of yours
if thats possible
it took a long time to learn how full of crap i was

Kind of a laugh how much I relate to this . . .

Much love!