The importance of context...

[dfj]

Dude look at the sentence before the Isa quote.

[sup]7[/sup] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, [sup]8[/sup] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Not speaking about Jesus? Read the whole of Isa 64 and tell me its not speaking of Jesus.

What Isaiah was saying under the inspiration of God is not what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 2:9:

From Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament:

"It is not certain where Paul derives this quotation as Scripture. Origen thought it a quotation from the Apocalypse of Elias and Jerome finds it also in the Ascension of Isaiah. But these books appear to be post-Pauline, and Jerome denies that Paul obtained it from these late apocryphal books. Clement of Rome finds it in the Septuagint text of Isa 64:4 and cites it as a Christian saying. It is likely that Paul here combines freely Isa 64:4; 65:17; 52:15 in a sort of catena or free chain of quotations as he does in Rom 3:10-18.

If it cannot be substantiated by the context then the commentator should refrain from suggesting that it does!

 

[Robbie]

Interesting perspectives Dave...

The church I used to go to was horrible about picking a couple different sentences out of the scriptures... out of the context they were written... and then making them say something completely different than what they were actually saying and making a whole bible study about it... which was where I first heard the part left out about what was made available by the Spirit... as they went on to cross reference the part taken out of context with all these other sentences they picked and chose out of the bible they would eventually completely lose the Spirit of what was being said... even leaving out the most important part about what was made available by the Spirit... it would have basically been like saying the whole world is already condemned and leaving out the part about Jesus coming to save it because the couple other scriptures they quoted out of the old testament didn't recognize Jesus as the savior.

The best thing I ever did was when I started reading the different writings that are compiled in the bible in the simple context they were written instead of how I was told to study and cross reference a bunch of sentences taken out of context ... becoming wise they become fools...

Paul didn't write stuff so someone would take a sentence out of context and then make a sermon about what, "He really was saying there" based on some other sentences they found in the old testament...

Paul wrote what he wrote as a whole and it's meant to be read as a whole and it's only understood correctly when read in context...

A simple example of the principle of what I see people do is like if Paul said, "The grass is green in Damascus"

And Moses said, "The grass is green in Egypt"

So what people will say to deny that the grass is green in Damascus is they'll say that since Paul said the grass is green (out of context), he was obviously quoting Moses who said the grass is green in Egypt, that must mean Paul was really talking about Egypt and not about Damascus... haha

It's like dude... it's simple... the grass is green in Damascus...

It's like dude... it's simple... the things God has prepared for us who love Him that eye hasn't seen have been made known to us by His Spirit...

 

[dfj]

The church I used to go to was horrible about picking a couple different sentences out of the scriptures...

This happens all the time Robbie, that's why Scripture says, 2 Tim 2:15-16; "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved , a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth."

 

[jacobtaylor]

What Isaiah was saying under the inspiration of God is not what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 2:9:

From Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament:

"It is not certain where Paul derives this quotation as Scripture. Origen thought it a quotation from the Apocalypse of Elias and Jerome finds it also in the Ascension of Isaiah. But these books appear to be post-Pauline, and Jerome denies that Paul obtained it from these late apocryphal books. Clement of Rome finds it in the Septuagint text of Isa 64:4 and cites it as a Christian saying. It is likely that Paul here combines freely Isa 64:4; 65:17; 52:15 in a sort of catena or free chain of quotations as he does in Rom 3:10-18.

If it cannot be substantiated by the context then the commentator should refrain from suggesting that it does!

Thank you DJ you have simply confirmed that many others have a wide range of opinions as well. This seems to satify you as well as Robbie. May I ask just which one of your multiple choice commentaries you both subscribe to. I see you avoided my question about Gen 18 again as well. Can't answer direct questions but offers multiple choice answers, very informative Dr DJ.

If it cannot be substantiated by the context then the commentator should refrain from suggesting that it does!

Another great mystery yet to be reveled in the passage. Dr DJ doesn't like my answer so lets fog up the lens and move on.

 

[marksman]

Proof texts (scripture taken out of context) are the thing of preaching today with a few exceptions. This happens for two reasons.

One, the person preaching has no annointing from God to teach. The fact that they have been appointed the pastor does not mean they have an annointing.

Two, the fact that we do not recognise the ministry of "teaching" (Ephesians 4). In most churches, the pastor is expected to be the teacher.

This has come about because the statement "pastor and teachers" in Ephesians 4 has been read to mean that the same person does both. With a few exceptions, it is obvious that they are not one and the same person as it seems that the pastor/teacher does neither very well.

If you are a pastor (shepherd) your ministry is quite different to the teacher.One who shepherds should be concerned for the welfare of the sheep. One who teaches is concerned that the truth is taught. A shepherd needs to be a people person. A teacher does not. A shepherd is primariy a one on one ministry. A teacher is primarily a group ministry.

Until the church acknowledges the five ministries in Ephesians 4, we shall be tossed to and fro in the wind.

 

[Robbie]

That's an interesting perspective ^^^ I have other friends who have shared with me similar thoughts... thanks for sharing yours...

 

[Disciple]

Context is import for the text and for your life, what God is saying to you and your sitations, context of scripture is very important but the Spirit can speak to you personally out of context.

 

[dfj]

Proof texts (scripture taken out of context) are the thing of preaching today with a few exceptions. This happens for two reasons.

One, the person preaching has no anointing from God to teach. The fact that they have been appointed the pastor does not mean they have an anointing.

Two, the fact that we do not recognize the ministry of "teaching" (Ephesians 4). In most churches, the pastor is expected to be the teacher.

This has come about because the statement "pastor and teachers" in Ephesians 4 has been read to mean that the same person does both. With a few exceptions, it is obvious that they are not one and the same person as it seems that the pastor/teacher does neither very well.

If you are a pastor (shepherd) your ministry is quite different to the teacher.One who shepherds should be concerned for the welfare of the sheep. One who teaches is concerned that the truth is taught. A shepherd needs to be a people person. A teacher does not. A shepherd is primary a one on one ministry. A teacher is primarily a group ministry.

Until the church acknowledges the five ministries in Ephesians 4, we shall be tossed to and fro in the wind.

I believe that Peter was admonished to feed the lambs.

John 21:15;15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs, (Bóske tá arnía mou)."

Yes, Shepherds can teach and take care of their flock.

And, yes there is a difference between shepherding and teaching but the shepherd better know how to feed his lambs or we will have allot of sick lambs around.

Incidentally, just a aside, the word pastor is a Latin word imported into the English Text. The Greek term in Eph 4:11, is poiménas and everywhere else in the NT is translated Shepherd.

 

[dfj]

I see you avoided my question about Gen 18 again as well.

Commentaries are fine sometimes, to gain a different perspective and they can be right as well, but in the end they are still just commentaries.

I apologize, but I don't remember you specific Genesis 18 question? If you would care to ask it again I will try to answer it specifically.

 

[tomwebster]

Also, speaking of the importance of context and the truth it conveys, did Jesus really say, "why have you forsaken me"? Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34.

Heb 13:5; God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."
Was this a Scribal insertion?
Was this a Denomination driven Translation?
Or did God really forsake His Perfect sinless Son? ….

Let's look at Scripture, Mr Jones.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?I don’t know how many church pastors have used this verse to tell parishioner’s that God forsook His son because of our sin. It is really a shame that so few pastors know Scripture.
God does not go back on His promise to, “never leave thee, nor forsake thee,” and He did not “leave thee, nor forsake” Christ either. Read Psalm 22, and you will discover that Christ was teaching these verses by David from the cross. Study the whole of the Psalm and you will discover how closely it follows the words from the cross, down to “it is finished.”

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

… you avoided my question about Gen 18 again as well. …

JT, what is your question on Gen 18?

 

[aspen]

Hi Robbie!

Yes, I do know what you are talking about....and yes, I do believe that your OP has been derailed [or at least sidetracked].

Here's a scripture I find being misquoted a lot.

Psalms 37:4 Delight [ H6026] thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

I know a few believers who have used this scripture to pray for a particular [future] marriage partner [even though that person may not even be interested in them]
Then they get really angry and disappointed with God because it did not happen. :huh:

Delight H6026 - ‛ânag
A primitive root; to be soft or pliable, that is, (figuratively) effeminate or luxurious: - delicate (-ness), (have) delight (self), sport self.

When you think about the idea of being soft or pliable, it tends to take away your own desires, as his will becomes your will and the desires of your heart becomes the desire that he has given you. The rest of the scriptures go on thusly....

Psalms 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
Psalms 37:6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.


Bless you!

Great post!

Here is another verse that is constantly used out of context and often results in real damage for people who are undergoing a tragedy:

Romans 8:28 - [sup]28[/sup] And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[sup][i][/sup] have been called according to his purpose.

This verse is often given to people as a means of comfort. However, if you are in the midsts of a tragic event, hearing this verse can be devastating. It sounds as if God is purposely using you as a means to an end. This is not Paul's intention at all.

Instead. it means that God is always with us, even in the bad times. Life is going to break our hearts, at times - Christ will be there for us when it happens and heal us. It does not mean that He wanted the tragedy to happen so He could make something good happen. Tragedy is never worth it. Yet, Christ will not forsake us.

 

[jacobtaylor]

Commentaries are fine sometimes, to gain a different perspective and they can be right as well, but in the end they are still just commentaries.

I apologize, but I don't remember you specific Genesis 18 question? If you would care to ask it again I will try to answer it specifically.

I tried 3 times asking you for an answer in your "whats in a word thread" about Gen 18.
David Jones was then Dr David Jones, he was making a case to dispute the trinity. Do you now remember me reminding you then that you keep avoiding my question about who is the LORD that meet Abraham in gen 18?

I don't want or expect you to reply here simply reply in your thread. This is why I think Dr DJ has a problem with the verses in question here, it indicates Jesus is God. That doesn't sit to well with those that object to the Father Son and HS being one. Thats also why I presume he avoids my question about Gen 18 and the word LORD - Jehovah, This LORD had dinner with Abraham.

Heres his thread
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13359-whats-in-a-word/page__view__findpost__p__101881

JT, what is your question on Gen 18?

I gave DJ a reply about it, it should right above this post

 

[dfj]

Let's look at Scripture, Mat 27:46

I know what the versions have in their text. Talk to George Lampsa.

This language is not pure Hebrew nor Syriac, but a mixture of both, called commonly "Syro-Chaldaic."
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

Matthew first transliterates the Aramaic, and that is according to the Vatican manuscript B.

But you haven't addressed my questions.

Also, who authorized the connection to Psalm 22?

 

[Anastacia]

Thanks for posting that, tomwebster.

 

[dfj]

I tried 3 times asking you for an answer in your "whats in a word thread" about Gen 18.
David Jones was then Dr David Jones, he was making a case to dispute the trinity. Do you now remember me reminding you then that you keep avoiding my question about who is the LORD that meet Abraham in gen 18?

I don't want or expect you to reply here simply reply in your thread. This is why I think Dr DJ has a problem with the verses in question here, it indicates Jesus is God. That doesn't sit to well with those that object to the Father Son and HS being one. Thats also why I presume he avoids my question about Gen 18 and the word LORD - Jehovah, This LORD had dinner with Abraham.

I dropped the Dr. as it seemed to offend some people.

As far as your Gen 18 question goes, you were not responding to the questions I asked nor did I feel that your interest, at the time, was anything more than refutation rather than discussion.

 

[tomwebster]

I know what the versions have in their text. Talk to George Lampsa.

This language is not pure Hebrew nor Syriac, but a mixture of both, called commonly "Syro-Chaldaic."
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

Matthew first transliterates the Aramaic, and that is according to the Vatican manuscript B.

But you haven't addressed my questions.

Also, who authorized the connection to Psalm 22?

I'm not here to answer your questions, I here to teach you Scripture. Why does someone need to "authorize the connection to Psalm 22, all one needs to do is read it.

 

[jacobtaylor]

I'm not here to answer your questions, I here to teach you Scripture. Why does someone need to "authorize the connection to Psalm 22, all one needs to do is read it.

I was wondering the same

I dropped the Dr. as it seemed to offend some people.

As far as your Gen 18 question goes, you were not responding to the questions I asked nor did I feel that your interest, at the time, was anything more than refutation rather than discussion.

You only asked one question and ignored my other request for an answer or opinion.

You presume that answering my direct and simple question with a question unrealated is suficent response?
It pretty clear you have no intention of answering, the question in itself conflicts with your definition of Jesus and your similar JW explanation of the trinity . You talked about one verse for 4 pages. Mostly with yourself. You can believe as you like, but you surly don't want to be bothered by lose ends you can't answer.

 

[Angelina]

Great post!

Here is another verse that is constantly used out of context and often results in real damage for people who are undergoing a tragedy:

Romans 8:28 - [sup]28[/sup] And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[sup][i][/sup] have been called according to his purpose.

This verse is often given to people as a means of comfort. However, if you are in the midsts of a tragic event, hearing this verse can be devastating. It sounds as if God is purposely using you as a means to an end. This is not Paul's intention at all.

Instead. it means that God is always with us, even in the bad times. Life is going to break our hearts, at times - Christ will be there for us when it happens and heal us. It does not mean that He wanted the tragedy to happen so He could make something good happen. Tragedy is never worth it. Yet, Christ will not forsake us.

Hi aspen!

I agree...when someone quotes this scripture based on the above situation...it almost sounds patronizing...:huh:

Bless ya! and thanks for the refreshing words...

 

[Robbie]

I hear that ^^^... the other thing that sucks is when someone is dealing with something horrible and someone says, "God doesn't give you more than you can handle" I've actually seen shiz as lame as someone loses someone and someone says, "God doesn't give you more than you can handle" It's like come on... it's easy to quote those scriptures when you're not the one going through it...

 

[aspen]

I hear that ^^^... the other thing that sucks is when someone is dealing with something horrible and someone says, "God doesn't give you more than you can handle" I've actually seen shiz as lame as someone loses someone and someone says, "God doesn't give you more than you can handle" It's like come on... it's easy to quote those scriptures when you're not the one going through it...

I was actually going to comment on that verse, but I forgot the verse number. The frustrating part about that verse is that Paul is teaching us that God will not give us a Temptation we cannot handle (resist) - not a tragedy we cannot handle! So frustrating.....