The Importance of Correct Theology

[waynemlj]

I have spent several hours reading the Posts and Replies of many of my brothers and sisters in Christ on this very good Christian Message Board.In doing so, I have been encouraged by the faith I see coming from the members. I also see the importance to the joy of all those who believe unto salvation that we get our theology right.Despite what you and I may think, the Truth of God's Word stands as a beacon of light. We must continue to dig deep into the Bible in order to get proper understanding.Psalm 119:105, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."Does it matter if everyone agrees that Jesus died only for the elect of God and not for ALL men? I believe it does matter. It matters greatly. Our joy is increased beyond measure in a thankful heart that knows that it deserved nothing from God but His terrible wrath and condemnation to eternal darkness and torment.God wrote His Letter (the Bible) to us and commanded us to get understandingroverbs 16:16, "How much better to get wisdom than gold!To get understanding is to be chosen rather than silver."Ephesians 1:17-19, "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints..."I think that all of us who believe the Gospel take these words seriously and that's why I believe that the theology we all hold must be in accordance with the Truth of the Bible and not just our own feeling about the way we think things ought to be.1) Therefore, I submit for your serious consideration that Universal Atonement (that Jesus died for all men) is an error, and is not found in the Bible.2) Limited Atonement (Jesus dying only for the Elect of the Father) is the Truth from the Bible. (John, Ch. 17 will supply ample proof. Other Scriptures that reveal this same truth are found in Jesus' words in Matthew 24:22,24,31 and in Mark 13:20,22,27 and in Romans 8:33 and in Romans 11:7 and in 2 Timothy 2:10 and in Titus 1:1.)Jesus said in John 15:11, "These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full."May the Truth of His joy be in all of us and may our joy be full!waynemlj

 

[tim_from_pa]

This doctrine is like predestination vs. free choice paradox. I believe they both co-exist.Jesus is like that man who sold everything he had to buy a field, but it was for the treasure in that field. In other words, the price paid was sufficient for the whole world, but he wanted the treasure.Now, in conventional Christianity, we are taught that salvation will not work without faith, but then again faith is given by God, so although it is open to all who believe, it effectively works on only those who believe, and the net result is the same as election, even though the price is enough to save everyone. This way nobody can claim "you did not choose me" defense before God. God always works in paradoxes.Now, while I agree overall, I must caution regarding the use of "elect" in Matthew 24. As I always say to the folks here, there is an election of grace, and there's the election of race.People confuse the two and wonder why Jews are "chosen" if they are lost. The answer is because they are part of the elect of race. It is possible to have the promises, the nations, the kingdom, the power and wealth that goes with it and so forth, but yet be personally lost. Then it's possible to not be chosen, and of a race that has no promises, and yet obtain personal salvation (grace). Then again, there are some nations that have BOTH (lucky guys)

I truly believe that Matthew 24 is talking about the elect of race, as Jesus will regather the dispersed tribes of Israel to bring back into the land during the last days to fulfill Ezekiel 37. Far too often, Christians look at only the spiritual side of the NT, as if it's something "churchy". However, in the true context, what Jesus taught was really political and nationalistic as well.

 

[waynemlj]

Hi tim_from_pa,You make some good points that election started with race, the Hebrew Nation, the Nation of Israel. And some from there will not believe, while some from the Gentiles will believe even though they were not first on the earth in God's election.However, we have to go farther back before the world was even created in order to see where all this election began. It began in the eternal mind of the Father in Covenant with the Son, and as long as we keep this point in mind, we can look at Israel as the earthly starting point or, as you say "the election of race." We see in Galatians 3:16, "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, 'And to offsprings,' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ.' "So we are in agreement there that the promise (election), though it started with Israel (Abraham), it was intended for all who would be born of Christ by God's gift of faith.I like your thoughtful Reply!waynemlj

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So in Gen 1:26 it should have been translated let us make SOME men in our image?

 

[waynemlj]

DrBubbaLove, When God made man He made him to be a pure being who needed no salvation. That changed dramatically when Adam's disobedience cut him off from God spiritually.Not only was Adam cut off from God, so was the rest of humanity for whom Adam was the spiritual representative.You're talking about a totally different situation.I don't see how it applies to this topic.Could you be a bit clearer in expressing what you mean?waynemlj

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Sure,Either we all descended from Adam or not. If we do descend from him (and most agree), then in some sense ALL are made in God's Image. Which means all mankind are born with something special about us, just because we are human and made in His Image. First let me say that at least before the fall, we would all agree there was something special about man that placed him above all the other creatures placed on this world. Without that, we would be just another animal. And that something special would be a good thing. God indicates this by including those Words in the story (Image and Good). And there is nothing in the story to suggest that being made in God’s Image is removed from Man. Nor does the story say Man ends up totally depraved after the Fall. Sinful; yes! Separated from God; yes! Totally depraved; no. Of course the advocates will site other verses in support, but if this was a resulting condition of the fall, one would think it would be worthy of mention in that story.And because we can all see that any sin at all and just the association of the human race with Adam separates us from God before we are born, we do not have to imagine total depravity to see man separated from God. So the question becomes why give all men an Image, obviously something to be valued when One already knows that “value” is wasted on those whom One Knows are not “elect”. Indeed some have “solved” this problem by suggesting not all of us have descended from Adam. Was just wondering if that was your belief.

 

[Christina]

We are all created in the Image of God and the Angels Period.the importance of Adam was that it was his bloodline that Christ would be born thru Not that we all came thru him this is clear in Hebrew and understanding the three World ages. It was thru this bloodline and offspring of Adam and Eve that all would be brought life(spirtitually) through Jesus Christ.

 

[stlizzy]

So is your point about the elect something like: Christ's sacrifice is enough for all men, but the point of His death is only for those who will believe. What I mean is that it's there for all who will take it, but it's worth is bestowed only upon those who will believe and therefore are (or perhaps were, as you mentioned before the beginning of time??) chosen by God to be worthy enough? Because I mean, read Romans 3:21-26:"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."It's there for all but given only to few, those who will believe? So His death was for those who will accept it, and not for those who would reject Him because He would have no need to die for those who would reject the death- yet it is open to all if they do believe?(I mean, and John 3:16 fits right in with the idea that "whosoever will believe" shall have eternal life... so His death is for those who will believe and He didn't die for those who will reject... because they don't appreciate this precious gift?)And here's another important question: are the "Elect" also based of the theology that there are three earth ages, coming from the "Gap Theory"? (Though I did read all of the verses that you posted wayne, and I am leaning towards no.)Does God choose someone because they believe or do they believe because God has chosen them?? I think the first would negate free will...??By the way I am asking questions because I want to hear different viewpoints but the Holy Spirit, the Father and scripture are my foundations for doctrine, and not just what one person says.

 

[stlizzy]

(tim_from_pa;38874)
This doctrine is like predestination vs. free choice paradox. I believe they both co-exist.Jesus is like that man who sold everything he had to buy a field, but it was for the treasure in that field. In other words, the price paid was sufficient for the whole world, but he wanted the treasure.Now, in conventional Christianity, we are taught that salvation will not work without faith, but then again faith is given by God, so although it is open to all who believe, it effectively works on only those who believe, and the net result is the same as election, even though the price is enough to save everyone. This way nobody can claim "you did not choose me" defense before God. God always works in paradoxes.Now, while I agree overall, I must caution regarding the use of "elect" in Matthew 24. As I always say to the folks here, there is an election of grace, and there's the election of race.People confuse the two and wonder why Jews are "chosen" if they are lost. The answer is because they are part of the elect of race. It is possible to have the promises, the nations, the kingdom, the power and wealth that goes with it and so forth, but yet be personally lost. Then it's possible to not be chosen, and of a race that has no promises, and yet obtain personal salvation (grace). Then again, there are some nations that have BOTH (lucky guys)

I truly believe that Matthew 24 is talking about the elect of race, as Jesus will regather the dispersed tribes of Israel to bring back into the land during the last days to fulfill Ezekiel 37. Far too often, Christians look at only the spiritual side of the NT, as if it's something "churchy". However, in the true context, what Jesus taught was really political and nationalistic as well.
Tim, I get your analogy to buying a field but break it down even further.... how can God expect people to have faith if He only gives it to a few? Or does He give faith to all but only a few respond?

 

[waynemlj]

Hi Dr DrBubbaLove,We are agreed that all men have descended from Adam and inherit his fallen nature.I wonder where you got the idea that man is not totally depraved. The Bible says just the opposite.Look at this Scripture and see if you want to rethink your statement.Not only are we totally depraved we are DEAD spiritually.Ephesians 2:1-3, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."Here's more on our fallen nature.Romans 3:10-18, "as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one;no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good, not even one.Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.The venom of asps is under their lips.Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery,and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes."If that's not enough proof of the total depravity of man, let me know, and I'll supply you with as many Scriptures as you'd be willing to wade through.waynemlj

 

[Jordan]

(waynemlj;38941)
Hi Dr DrBubbaLove,We are agreed that all men have descended from Adam and inherit his fallen nature.I wonder where you got the idea that man is not totally depraved. The Bible says just the opposite.Look at this Scripture and see if you want to rethink your statement.Not only are we totally depraved we are DEAD spiritually.Ephesians 2:1-3, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."Here's more on our fallen nature.Romans 3:10-18, "as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one;no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good, not even one.Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.The venom of asps is under their lips.Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery,and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes."If that's not enough proof of the total depravity of man, let me know, and I'll supply you with as many Scriptures as you'd be willing to wade through.waynemlj
Can you guys get off men's words... It's downright lie to believe that Adam & Eve are the first two people on Earth.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Tim, I get your analogy to buying a field but break it down even further.... how can God expect people to have faith if He only gives it to a few? Or does He give faith to all but only a few respond?
Both. I believe the sovereignty of God and the response of people to that sovereignty. As flesh beings, we cannot nor want to chose God. That is an act of prevenient grace on His part, in which when we respond is evidence that a new birth already occurred. We are still responsible, but God predestines.

 

[stlizzy]

(waynemlj;38941)
Hi Dr DrBubbaLove,We are agreed that all men have descended from Adam and inherit his fallen nature.I wonder where you got the idea that man is not totally depraved. The Bible says just the opposite.Look at this Scripture and see if you want to rethink your statement.Not only are we totally depraved we are DEAD spiritually.Ephesians 2:1-3, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."Here's more on our fallen nature.Romans 3:10-18, "as it is written: None is righteous, no, not one;no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;no one does good, not even one.Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.The venom of asps is under their lips.Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery,and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes."If that's not enough proof of the total depravity of man, let me know, and I'll supply you with as many Scriptures as you'd be willing to wade through.waynemlj
If we were totally depraved how would we even know it- I suppose through God's revelation? We are still in the image of God but now longer totally human. Only Christ was able to remain in the perfect human form...

 

[stlizzy]

(thesuperjag;38942)
Can you guys get off men's words... It's downright lie to believe that Adam & Eve are the first two people on Earth.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
The same thing could be said for the opposite of this statement...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Wayne,Total depravity is a relatively modern notion; you will not find it among any of the ancient Christians, or even the among the heretics.Total would mean nothing good, which would leave such a being incapable of doing any good. That is not the same as saying one can justify himself to God, which is the appropriate context of the verses you quoted. Clearly man is capable of choosing good over evil. The fact we are inclined because of our fallen nature to lean towards evil and away from God does not require that we ALWAYS do so. If it were really true that NONE are righteous then we would have difficulty explaining Abraham, Moses, Enoch, Elijah….etc

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(thesuperjag;38942)
Can you guys get off men's words... It's downright lie to believe that Adam & Eve are the first two people on Earth.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
Hi Jag,Is this another thing we should take on your word that you have heard it as being so directly from the Spirit?

 

[Christina]

Wayne I am not seeing the logic of your point yes we are all guilty of sin but grace is offered to ALL not just a few yes some are predestined but you ideas seem to exclude the rest of mankind and deny that Grace is offered to All and it takes away the reasonfor free will As Tim said there are both predestination and free will in effect

 

[Jordan]

(stilizzy;38946)
(thesuperjag;38942)
Can you guys get off men's words... It's downright lie to believe that Adam & Eve are the first two people on Earth.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
The same thing could be said for the opposite of this statement...I don't want anything happen to any of you guys.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.

 

[Christina]

(DrBubbaLove;38948)
Hi Jag,Is this another thing we should take on your word that you have heard it as being so directly from the Spirit?
No he isnt it is written in the scriptures in Hebrew it is more scriptural then beliving the things written that were not included in the scriptures.

 

[stlizzy]

(DrBubbaLove;38948)
Hi Jag,Is this another thing we should take on your word that you have heard it as being so directly from the Spirit?
No it's based of the idea of three earth ages... which I am not saying is bad or good because it's up to God to reveal things to us in our own time... but this is where I believe the notion comes from? Correct me if I am wrong, please.All Praise be to God the Father!