The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!

[Bible Highlighter]

You got to be kidding!

Galatians 5:1

I believe that we can rebuke them one or two times, but to keep endlessly arguing with them over their keeping the Old Law is not what is in view.

 

[Titus]

Well at least you are being honest.
Wow! You think mans law has authority over Gods!

Tell that to the apostles,
Acts 5:29.

So, if a Christian works at a grocery store say Kroger.
And Kroger forces sinfull lifestyles on their employees like making them wear gay pride ribbons on their aprons.
You teach a Christian should not work there.
So what organizations could a Christian work for?

Also how is a Christian going to spread the gospel when every single internet forum has rules that go against Gods commandments?

The problem with your thinking is, you believe in not upsetting others beliefs.
Well, you at least push that on folks you are not fond of.
Yet, you tell folks on here they are wrong.
That sure seems hypocritical to me.

 

[BarneyFife]

Lots and lots of insults from you.
More insults from you, than any other member.

Sometimes I am aggressive, when the Spirit moves me to be.
I'm very sensitive to what I perceive as spiritual bullying.
I don't claim to always be right. You should see what I hold back.
I'm the most insulting... Interesting. I've never gotten that one before.
I'm sorry if I've been unduly insulting.
I will take your word for it and assume that I have.
"Be ye angry, and sin not," you know?
I'm still working on how to do that properly.
But, you have a right to feel as you do.
Mizpah, Brother.

 

[Titus]

believe that we can rebuke them one or two times, but to keep endlessly arguing with them over their keeping the Old Law is not what is in view.

Amen,
But here is the problem.
When do you stop teaching someone who disagrees with you.
That is a question I have been pondering for a very long time.

Jesus was a mind reader.
He knew who to teach, and who would never believe and obey Him.

None of us have that ability.
So, it is very difficult to know when to give up on convincing someone they are in error.

I dont think we can know.

Pinseeker's very first person I ran into when I joined this forum.
Right off he told me he does not care what I think.

When someone let's me know that what I am teaching means nothing to them.
Then I know not to waste my time.
Dont cast your pearls before swine is the right passage.

 

[BarneyFife]

I had discussions with SDA’s before. Whenever they talk it is Sabbath this, and Sabbath that. They make it all about the Sabbath when it is no longer a command that is in effect (Colossians 2:14-17).

But this Facebook Page is a good source for exposing some of the silly things in the SDA church.

Ellen G White Lies - Facebook

So, cannon fodder it is, then? Too bad.

I would love to have a discussion with you, barring the Sabbath completely, if you like.
I understand, of course, if you're too busy.
Mizpah, Brother.

 

[BarneyFife]

Amen,
But here is the problem.
When do you stop teaching someone who disagrees with you.
That is a question I have been pondering for a very long time.

Jesus was a mind reader.
He knew who to teach, and who would never believe and obey Him.

None of us have that ability.
So, it is very difficult to know when to give up on convincing someone they are in error.

I dont think we can know.

Pinseeker's very first person I ran into when I joined this forum.
Right off he told me he does not care what I think.

When someone let's me know that what I am teaching means nothing to them.
Then I know not to waste my time.
Dont cast your pearls before swine is the right passage.

Forgive me but it seems as though you've answered the question that you've pondered for a long time.

 

[BarneyFife]

Whatever you label your doctrine.
It will never be the new law of Christ.

This may mean nothing to you.
I hope you know I truly love you.
I would never wish any harm on you, physically or spiritually.

This is really good stuff. I'm very moved by this.
This is what I keep coming back here for.
I've had more people tell me they love me here than at church.
That's sad, in a way.
Oh, well. I'm rambling again.

 

[Titus]

Sometimes I am aggressive, when the Spirit moves me to be.
I'm very sensitive to what I perceive as spiritual bullying.
I don't claim to always be right. You should see what I hold back.
I'm the most insulting... Interesting. I've never gotten that one before.
I'm sorry if I've been unduly insulting.
I will take your word for it and assume that I have.
"Be ye angry, and sin not," you know?
I'm still working on how to do that properly.
But, you have a right to feel as you do.
Mizpah, Brother.

I dont mind anyone who has strong faith in what they worked at to understand, 2Timothy 2:15.
I have problems with those who will not reason, or hear another that uses scriptures to teach.
I strongly know I am right about what I believe.
But if someone could use the scriptures to show me that I contradict myself in my conclusions.
I will be the first to admit I have not rightly divided the word and will gladly thank the person for helping me know Gods truth.
I expect the same from every person I discuss Bible with.
That is the mindset all must have. Otherwise we are stuck with inability to grow in understanding of the scriptures.

God never intended for His gospel to be interpreted differently, Ephesians 3:4
It is not for private interpretation, Ephesians 5:17 ; 2Peter 1:20

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Titus

If God’s Word tells us to not strive (endlessly fight) against matters of the Old Law, then that’s what it means.
If you don’t like it, take it up with God. This does not apply to fighting or contending for the faith on other matters.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Titus

Okay. Back on topic.

John 18:36 says:
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Jesus says in this above verse that if His Kingdom were of this world, then His servants would fight so that He would not be delivered to the Jews.
The idea here sets a pattern we see in NT Scripture. Jesus is defining how His servants behave in the fact that they do not fight as being in relation to His Kingdom not being of this world.

Matthew 26:52-53
52 Then Jesus told him, “Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels?”

Here we are in the middle of a scene where the Lord Jesus’ life seemed threatened. Peter reacted with violence using his sword. Jesus did not think like you did in that we must protect ourselves from an enemy, but Jesus rebuked Peter for acting violently. Jesus said he that takes up the sword will perish by the sword (or he that lives by the sword will die by the sword). Jesus further rebukes Peter and tells him that he could have called down 12 legions of angels to protect Himself and so Jesus did not need Peter’s sword to protect him. So the lesson here was not what you would hope for in that we must shoot at the first sign of trouble, but it was in the fact that the Lord was teaching a lesson on Non-Violence. For Jesus undid Peter’s damage in healing Malchus’s ear that was chopped off by Peter. So the disciples were mistaken on what sword to get. Jesus was referring to the spiritual sword (the Word of God, or Scripture). For no physical battle was won that day with their two swords and Jesus’ whole point was Non-Violence. This point on Non-Violence ties into what Jesus said in John 18:36.

So this is the second thing we see our Lord teach that shows Non-Violence.

Before moving on to other verses, I think it is best we deal with these two pieces of Scripture to see how you deal with this.
For me: This is teaching Non-Violence.

Oh, and please keep in mind, you will be hard pressed to find anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus or His followers taught contrary to Non-Violence While We Live Out Our Faith. Jesus only spoke of future judgment, and or His Second Coming (Which does not apply to saints living out their faith).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So, cannon fodder it is, then? Too bad.

I would love to have a discussion with you, barring the Sabbath completely, if you like.
I understand, of course, if you're too busy.
Mizpah, Brother.

I just don’t think it is going to be profitable or my argument is going to convince you (Especially if you are set in your ways involving your belief).
I will just give you the plain meaning of what the Bible says without any Sabbatarian bias or glasses. But I am not sure you are willing to read the Bible like that. There are no Sabbath Commands in the New Testament after the cross, and there are no Sabbath day breaking sins mentioned alongside murder, and adultery, etcetera. Colossians 2:14-17 makes it clear that we are not to let others judge us according to whether or not we keep the Sabbaths because those ordinances have been nailed to the cross. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So we follow Jesus now and not Moses. But again, I feel like my argument with God’s Word is not going to convince you because most SDA’s have been mentally conditioned to forever talk about the Sabbath at all times. It’s Sabbath this, and Sabbath that. When it should be about Jesus and not a day of the week. The Sabbath is an especially deep stronghold in the mind of the SDA believer. They cannot stop thinking about the Sabbath. So to speak against the idea of the Sabbath being no longer applicable to them and prove that by Scripture is going to take a miracle of God to open their eyes to see such a truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen,
But here is the problem.
When do you stop teaching someone who disagrees with you.
That is a question I have been pondering for a very long time.

Jesus was a mind reader.
He knew who to teach, and who would never believe and obey Him.

None of us have that ability.
So, it is very difficult to know when to give up on convincing someone they are in error.

I dont think we can know.

Pinseeker's very first person I ran into when I joined this forum.
Right off he told me he does not care what I think.

When someone let's me know that what I am teaching means nothing to them.
Then I know not to waste my time.
Dont cast your pearls before swine is the right passage.

I see the pearls before swine portion of Scripture as in reference to not giving precious deep truths to folks like atheists who will only mock what you say as a means to destroy your faith. Swine is a picture of an unbeliever, and not a believer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen,
But here is the problem.
When do you stop teaching someone who disagrees with you.
That is a question I have been pondering for a very long time.

Jesus was a mind reader.
He knew who to teach, and who would never believe and obey Him.

None of us have that ability.
So, it is very difficult to know when to give up on convincing someone they are in error.

I dont think we can know.

Pinseeker's very first person I ran into when I joined this forum.
Right off he told me he does not care what I think.

When someone let's me know that what I am teaching means nothing to them.
Then I know not to waste my time.
Dont cast your pearls before swine is the right passage.

Whatever boundary line God talks to our heart in what we define as “endlessly fighting.” We shouldn’t cross that line.
Well, that is if you believe Titus 3:9.
I usually go for 2-3 write ups and then leave them be.
For if we don’t set a limit, then it will become an endless debate.
The best thing we can do is pray for them to see the truth.

Note:

An SDA poster on another forum posts endless long walls of text for what seems like forever. So this is the kind of stronghold they have built up for themselves. It’s an especially deep stronghold. So to endlessly argue this would be a full time job that would involve a super computer.

 

[Ezra]

Multiple people shot California church in Laguna Woods Orange County one person detained casualties | Daily Mail Online

Buffalo shooter targeted Black neighborhood, officials say

These MASS murders, and MANY more that we see on a regular basis, shows that it is both UNBIBLICAL and UNCHRISTIAN for anyone, especially if the are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, to own any form of weapon!

The US Constitution that allows for this is VERY WRONG!

what bible you get that out of?

 

[BarneyFife]

I just don’t think it is going to be profitable or my argument is going to convince you (Especially if you are set in your ways involving your belief).
I will just give you the plain meaning of what the Bible says without any Sabbatarian bias or glasses. But I am not sure you are willing to read the Bible like that. There are no Sabbath Commands in the New Testament after the cross, and there are no Sabbath day breaking sins mentioned alongside murder, and adultery, etcetera. Colossians 2:14-17 makes it clear that we are not to let others judge us according to whether or not we keep the Sabbaths because those ordinances have been nailed to the cross. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So we follow Jesus now and not Moses. But again, I feel like my argument with God’s Word is not going to convince you because most SDA’s have been mentally conditioned to forever talk about the Sabbath at all times. It’s Sabbath this, and Sabbath that. When it should be about Jesus and not a day of the week. The Sabbath is an especially deep stronghold in the mind of the SDA believer. They cannot stop thinking about the Sabbath. So to speak against the idea of the Sabbath being no longer applicable to them and prove that by Scripture is going to take a miracle of God to open their eyes to see such a truth.

You mentioned the s-word 10 times.
I offered a s-word-free discussion. I don't know what else to do. You seem like you have pretty much had it with Adventists so it would be wrong for me to bother you any further. It's off-topic here, anyway.

Mizpah, Brother.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You mentioned the s-word 10 times.
I offered a s-word-free discussion. I don't know what else to do. You seem like you have pretty much had it with Adventists so it would be wrong for me to bother you any further. It's off-topic here, anyway.

Mizpah, Brother.

I only mention it because I had my fair share of overdose of that word pushed upon me repeatedly whenever I talk with SDA members on another forum. Anyways, don’t take my word for the necessity of Sabbath keeping as being unbiblical, but check out what an ex Adventist has to say about it.

See page 66 in this PDF link here:

https://www.exadventist.com/Portals/0/Articles/Discovering the New Covenant - Greg Taylor.pdf

Note:

He was SDA all his life since a child before he learned of the truth of what the Word of God really said.

 

[Titus]

The Jews did not understand what Jesus was teaching when He taught about His kingdom.
Jesus taught more about the kingdom than any other subject.
The Jews believed Jesus was going to set up a Jewish Kingdom that would overthrow the kingdom of the Roman Empire.
They did not understand that Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom not earthly.
The Jews would have fought to keep Jesus alive if He had taught them that He would be their earthly king.
John 18:36,
-Jesus answered My kingdom is not of this world, if My Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delieved to the Jews(crucifixion, death): but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Jesus had to be killed, so all will have hope of eternal life.
This verse is not showing God condemns physical self-defense.
It has nothing to do with fighting one another physically.

Here we are in the middle of a scene where the Lord Jesus’ life seemed threatened. Peter reacted with violence using his sword. Jesus did not think like you did in that we must protect ourselves from an enemy, but Jesus rebuked Peter for acting violently. Jesus said he that takes up the sword will perish by the sword (or he that lives by the sword will die by the

Jesus did not rebuke Peter for protecting Him.
Jesus must be put to death to save the world.
Jesus rebuked Peter for getting in the way of what needed to take place.
Once again the disciples did not understand what was taking place.

You seem to forget it was Jesus that told His disciples to buy two swords.
Those weapons were not for Jesus' protection.
It was for the disciples.
Jesus was going to desert them.
The Jews were going to take Him away from them.
They were much hated by the Jews because they were His followers.

Luke 22:36-38,
-and Jesus said unto them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

This cannot not be the spiritual sword ie the word of God.
Can you buy the spiritual sword?

Ephesians 6:17,
-and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God.

The word of God is the Bible.
These disciples had no Bible.
The Bible was written by these very men!

So, your interpretation of these verses are error.
Jesus is telling His disciples to use physical money,
And buy physical swords.

Verse 37,
-For I say unto you, that this that is written must YET be accomplished in Me, and He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end.

-and they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And He said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus meant for them to buy weapons. They did understand here at least, what Jesus was telling them.

Matthew 26:52,

52 Then Jesus told him, “Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.

Jesus did not tell them anywhere they were sinning for having a sword.
How could He.
He told them to buy it.

Jesus says here, put the sword back in its place.
That means the sword has its place. But not for this situation before them.
Jesus did not say throw the sword away.
Or, that having a sword was wicked.

Verse 53,

53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels

Jesus's point is not that swords should never be used.
But He has no need for a physical weapon to protect Him.

After all, He wanted to be delivered to the Jews so that He could fulfill all prophecy.
Matthew 26:54,56
-but how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
-but all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

Isiah 53:6-7,
-All we like sheep have gone astray...
-He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its Shearer's is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.

take up a sword will perish by a sword.

This is truth.
Violent men that live lives of violence tend to die from the same weapons they use against their enemies.
Jesus is teaching the wrong way to use weapons.
He is not condeming the proper use of weapons.
Again Jesus is the one whom told them to buy a weapon.

 

[BarneyFife]

I only mention it because I had my fair share of overdose of that word pushed upon me repeatedly whenever I talk with SDA members on another forum. Anyways, don’t take my word for the necessity of Sabbath keeping as being unbiblical, but check out what an ex Adventist has to say about it.

See page 66 in this PDF link here:

https://www.exadventist.com/Portals/0/Articles/Discovering the New Covenant - Greg Taylor.pdf

Note:

He was SDA all his life since a child before he learned of the truth of what the Word of God really said.

Thanks. I actually bought and read the book about 15 years ago. I've read Ratzlaf as well. I've read Dirk Anderson's stuff and all of the anti-Adventist websites and literary material back to about 150 years ago. I like to be well-informed. I can't read as fast as I used to, though. I appreciate it.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Well, you better give up your kitchen knives, and gardening tools, etc.

Here in England, the problem is in London mainly, because of the gang wars, but in the other cities and towns, it is pretty much non existent. In the US gun crime is everywhere. Look what happened on Jan 6 last year at the White House!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Jews did not understand what Jesus was teaching when He taught about His kingdom.
Jesus taught more about the kingdom than any other subject.
The Jews believed Jesus was going to set up a Jewish Kingdom that would overthrow the kingdom of the Roman Empire.
They did not understand that Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom not earthly.
The Jews would have fought to keep Jesus alive if He had taught them that He would be their earthly king.
John 18:36,
-Jesus answered My kingdom is not of this world, if My Kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delieved to the Jews(crucifixion, death): but now is My kingdom not from hence.

Jesus had to be killed, so all will have hope of eternal life.
This verse is not showing God condemns physical self-defense.
It has nothing to do with fighting one another physically.

Your not getting it. GOD the Father used Jesus and His disciples as an example of Non-Violence to accomplish the greatest event in human history and that was the redemption of all mankind on the cross so that salvation could be offered to all who freely accept it.

Jesus did not rebuke Peter for protecting Him.

Yes, Jesus rebuked Peter.

1. Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in it’s place.
2. Jesus told Peter that he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword.
3. Jesus told Peter that He could have called down 12 legions of angels and He did not need Peter to protect him.
4. Jesus undid the damage of Peter’s work involving his sword.

All this is a lesson in Non-Violence in the Lord having to go to the cross. Jesus did not use violence to accomplish His plan of salvation that He was following from God the Father.

Jesus must be put to death to save the world.
Jesus rebuked Peter for getting in the way of what needed to take place.
Once again the disciples did not understand what was taking place.

His redemption of mankind did not undo the lesson of Non-Violence that went along with it.

You seem to forget it was Jesus that told His disciples to buy two swords.

No. Jesus did not tell the disciples to buy two swords.
Jesus told them each to buy a sword (singular), and they brought forth two swords.
Jesus wrapped up the conversation by saying, “That’s enough.”

Luke 22:36-38
36 “Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.”

Those weapons were not for Jesus' protection.
It was for the disciples.
Jesus was going to desert them.
The Jews were going to take Him away from them.
They were much hated by the Jews because they were His followers.

This is merely an invented narrative that does not exist in the Holy Scriptures.
Nowhere does the Bible say that they used two swords to protect themselves from the Jews.
Jesus just rebuked Peter for taking up his sword.

Luke 22:36-38,
-and Jesus said unto them,

But now he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

This cannot not be the spiritual sword ie the word of God.
Can you buy the spiritual sword?

The purpose of the physical swords was to fulfill prophecy and it was not a point on self defense. We cannot as believers today replay out these events. So there has to be a spiritual meaning of how we believers today can apply this.

The secondary spiritual meaning of the sword here is that it is Scripture.

Isaiah 55:1
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”

Ephesians 6:17,
-and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God.

The word of God is the Bible.
These disciples had no Bible.
The Bible was written by these very men!

This is the secondary meaning for us today.
For us, this would be whatever Scriptures we have memorized or the Bible.

So, your interpretation of these verses are error.
Jesus is telling His disciples to use physical money,
And buy physical swords.

Verse 37,
-For I say unto you, that this that is written must YET be accomplished in Me, and He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end.

-and they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And He said unto them, It is enough.

Jesus meant for them to buy weapons. They did understand here at least, what Jesus was telling them.

Yes, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy by them getting two physical swords. No doubt about it, but that was not the sole reason. We learn that the swords also served as a lesson of Non-Violence, as well (in accomplishing God’s plan of redemption).

Matthew 26:52,
Jesus did not tell them anywhere they were sinning for having a sword.
How could He.
He told them to buy it.

Jesus rebuked Peter for the use of his sword.
So yes. Jesus was correcting Peter’s understanding.
While the swords existed to fulfill prophecy, another lesson was that Peter was not to rely the physical sword, but the two edge sword (Which is the Word of God).

Jesus says here, put the sword back in its place.
That means the sword has its place. But not for this situation before them.
Jesus did not say throw the sword away.
Or, that having a sword was wicked.

Death is the curse of the Law. Jesus implied that the sword is a curse because if one lives by it, they will die by it. Meaning, if you trust in your sword to protect you and you stand by that sword, you could end up dying by that very sword or by another person’s sword.

Also, why did Jesus tell Peter not to throw his sword away?
Well, the Bible does not say, but I can think of a number of reasons why leaving a lethal weapon around can be harmful to another person, etcetera.

Verse 53,

Jesus's point is not that swords should never be used.
But He has no need for a physical weapon to protect Him.

No. Jesus said he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword.

This is truth.
Violent men that live lives of violence tend to die from the same weapons they use against their enemies.
Jesus is teaching the wrong way to use weapons.
He is not condeming the proper use of weapons.
Again Jesus is the one whom told them to buy a weapon.

Again, that’s just a fantasy added to the story that does not exist. The lesson we learned from the scenario was Non-Violence and not Violence. If God wanted to make it clear that we could also employ violence, then He would have clarified that in Scripture (But He didn’t). That’s what you don’t understand. The Bible is my sole authority here, and not conjecture of how we want things to be. The New Testament simply does not support Violence of any kind for the believer living out their faith, but it repeatedly supports the lessons or truths of Non-Violence.