The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!

[Wrangler]

I agree with you that Jesus taught His followers Non-Resistance.

IF there were ANY truth to what you are saying, Jesus would not be prophesied to return as the militarily conquering hero.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

IF there were ANY truth to what you are saying, Jesus would not be prophesied to return as the militarily conquering hero.

Understanding my position here:

Non-Resistance:

Non-Resistance is simply not being resistant with retaliating in violence to harm another when we are attacked. This does not mean we cannot run, hide, or incapacitate a person in a non-violent way our attacker. It means that we will not seek to kill anyone.
I believe Non-Resistance exists for believers only in the New Covenant contract (while they are living out their faith).

Pacifism:

I believe Jesus taught Non-Resistance, and not Pacifism. Pacifism is different than Non-Resistance. Pacifism is incorrect because it is teaching that all forms of violence is unjustifiable (See Websters 1913 Dictionary here). Yet, God the Father had to arranged for His Son to be a sacrifice for us (by violence) in order for us to be saved. God commanded the Israelites to physically destroy (kill) their enemies. Jesus will return (His Second Coming) down from Heaven with great violence and destroy the nations. But those who follow Him will be disembodied saints who have already lived out their faith. At the cross: God the Father was arranging the sacrifice. In the Old Covenant when God told the Israelites to kill their enemies, this was a different covenant or contract than the New Covenant contract.

 

[Titus]

Bible Highlighter is teaching the false doctrine of pacifism.
This is old error that has been debunked.

Folks like Bible Highlighter teach Jesus taught we cannot defend ourselves.
A good example of a religion that teaches this is Buddism.

Tibet has been taken over mostly by the Chinese because the buddhist religion in Tibet.

Did Jesus say to let your enemies beat you?
Really?
To the point of death?

Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also... Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
(Matthew 5:39-40, Matthew 5:44)

Bible Highlighter, is Jesus teaching you are not to defend yourself here?

True story,
A Christian and a Muslim worked for the same corporation.
One day the Muslim found out his college was a christian.
At lunch break. The Muslim walked up to the Christian and slapped him in the face hard enough to knock him unconscience.

The Muslim quoted the same verse Bible Highlighter quoted.

The Christian said after the shock.
Yes I believe this.
So the Muslim slapped him again!
The Christian did not understand this passage as Bible Highlighter does not understand these
Passages.

So, Bible Highlighter I want to get together with you physically.
I will beat you until you are unconscious.
Allow you to regain consciousness.
And tell you what you told us.
Turn the other cheek.
And I will beat you again until unconsciousness.

Now, you sure you are right about calling Jesus a pacifist?

btw, I will also do this to your wife and kids while you watch.
You will not be able to defend them.
That will violate your teaching.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bible Highlighter is teaching the false doctrine of pacifism.
This is old error that has been debunked.

Folks like Bible Highlighter teach Jesus taught we cannot defend ourselves.
A good example of a religion that teaches this is Budism.

Tibet has been taken over mostly by the Chinese because the buddhist religion in Tibet.

Did Jesus say to let your enemies beat you?
Really?
To the point of death?



Bible Highlighter, is Jesus teaching you are not to defend yourself here?

True story,
A Christian and a Muslim worked for the same corporation.
One day the Muslim found out his college was a christian.
At lunch break. The Muslim walked up to the Christian and slapped him in the face hard enough to knock him unconscience.

The Muslim quoted the same verse Bible Highlighter quoted.

The Christian said after the shock.
Yes I believe this.
So the Muslim slapped him again!
The Christian did not understand this passage as Bible Highlighter does not understand these
Passages.

So, Bible Highlighter I want to get together with you physically.
I will beat you until you are unconscious.
Allow you to regain consciousness.
And tell you what you told us.
Turn the other cheek.
And I will beat you again until unconsciousness.

Now, you sure you are right about calling Jesus a pacifist?

btw, I will also do this to your wife and kids while you watch.
You will not be able to defend them.
That will violate your teaching.

Please see post #142 to clear up your confusion on what I actually believe.
I don’t believe in Pacifism, I believe in Non-Resistance. There’s a difference.

 

[Titus]

Please see post #142 to clear up your confusion on what I actually believe.

You can claim you are not teaching pacifism.
But you most certainly are.

You think there is no situation that would cause you to kill someone in self defense.
This is not a matter of wanting to kill.
This is a matter of no other options.

 

[Wrangler]

Understanding my position here:

Yoir position is irrelevant to my post about Jesus returning as a military conqueror.

The only reason this fallen world is as good as it is is because good men with guns kill bad men with guns.

The world always was and always will be ruled by the effective use of force. Non-resistance only works, at the end of the day, because of a restraint on violence. For instance, Gandhi and MLK would not have worked in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You can claim you are not teaching pacifism.
But you most certainly are.

You think there is no situation that would cause you to kill someone in self defense.
This is not a matter of wanting to kill.
This is a matter of no other options.

No. Pacifism is saying that all forms of violence is unjustified. This would mean I would have to be against the Old Testament violence, be against the violence of the cross (that saves us), and be against the violence of Christ’s Second Coming (of which I am not against). I know. I used to be confused on the term Pacifism. In fact, I used to think Pacifism is Non-Resistance, and I even mindlessly debated it back and forth on another forum for a long time without actually looking up what the word Pacifism even means. Look up the word Pacifism in the Websters 1913 dictionary here. It is saying that all forms of violence is unjustified (of which I do not agree with). I believe in Non-Resistance (which is a temporary set of orders from our Lord to not act violently in return if we are attacked during the point in time we are living out our faith in the New Covenant contract).

Anyways, this is not my first rodeo or discussion involving this topic. I have debated it many times on another Christian forum. I am intimately familiar with the verses on this topic of discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yoir position is irrelevant to my post about Jesus returning as a military conqueror.

The only reason this fallen world is as good as it is is because good men with guns kill bad men with guns.

The world always was and always will be ruled by the effective use of force. Non-resistance only works, at the end of the day, because of a restraint on violence. For instance, Gandhi and MLK would not have worked in Nazi Germany or Communist Russia.

It does not matter what we think. If Jesus taught Non-Resistance under the New Covenant (Not the Old Covenant, and obviously not His Return at His 2nd Coming), then that is a truth we have to accept whether we like it or not. We are not our own lords and masters. Jesus is LORD.

 

[Wrangler]

not His Return at His 2nd

Very disingenuous.

Your position boils down to Jesus invoked Non-resistance UNTIL he resists with divine power. And for no apparent reason, we ought to cleave his final act in saving mankind is resistance et inifini.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think I'm gonna be sick.

 

[dev553344]

I think I'm gonna be sick.

You had to know sickness was coming with this thread though right?

 

[BarneyFife]

You had to know sickness was coming with this thread though right?

Yeah, and I should know better, but it seems really bad this time. Really, really bad. Did you see this?

So, Bible Highlighter I want to get together with you physically.
I will beat you until you are unconscious.
Allow you to regain consciousness.
And tell you what you told us.
Turn the other cheek.
And I will beat you again until unconsciousness.

Now, you sure you are right about calling Jesus a pacifist?

btw, I will also do this to your wife and kids while you watch.
You will not be able to defend them.
That will violate your teaching.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Very disingenuous.

Your position boils down to Jesus invoked Non-resistance UNTIL he resists with divine power. And for no apparent reason, we ought to cleave his final act in saving mankind is resistance et inifini.

It is not disingenuous at all, friend. If you were in a military unit: And your commanding officer told you to go on a mission that was non-violent, then it does not mean that your commanding officer cannot command you to go on a mission later that is violent. While on this Earth living out our faith, the Lord desires us to be Non-Violent under the New Covenant. But after we lived out our faith and this earthly body is gone, that does not mean the Lord cannot command us to attack in violence. Again, what I say really does not matter here. I used to believe Christians could go to war and use self defense, etcetera. Then Scripture changed my mind on that idea. Most Christians today are living by experience or their own thoughts and they simply do not conform to what the Bible says. I imagine that it becomes even more difficult for a person who has relied upon a gun all their life to give it up for Jesus.

I remember a Christian on another forum who told me his testimony in coming to the Lord. He worked for something like SWAT, and he was about to take down one of his targets from far away. But something held him back in pulling the trigger. He later ran into this person that they captured alive, and this person (he was about to kill) led him to Jesus Christ. I imagine a Christian during Paul’s time may have wanted to kill Paul because he had other Christians persecuted. But Paul turned out to be one of the greatest New Testament apostles. Imagine if were thinking Saul (Paul) needed to be killed with your sword back then. You could justify your killing of Saul because he was a bad man. But little would you realize GOD desired Paul to be a great minister for GOD. In other words, a person cannot repent or be saved if you kill them. You become the judge or executioner (outside of God’s orders). Even in the Old Testament, GOD directly told them to kill certain people groups so there was no doubt about whether or not GOD was talking to them on what to do. There is no command or order in the New Testament for you to take life in return. Actually, if you look at my list of verses in post #139 and post #140, and if you are honest with what the Bible says (over what your thoughts say), then you will come to the conclusion that Non-Resistance is taught by our Lord Jesus Christ and His followers (in the New Covenant contract). Don’t believe me? Just look at the verses with an open mind in prayer. If you are closed minded to certain portions of the Bible, and you are not open, this simply means you are wanting to see things they way you want to see them.

 

[dev553344]

Yeah, and I should know better, but it seems really bad this time. Really, really bad. Did you see this?

No hadn't seen that one. I've often thought of such things but never would say them to people. I have police officers in my family. So I naturally think about stuff like that. LOL.

Truth is, like Japan, when you take away people's guns they simply use knives and machetes instead. I looked it up on previous debates. Japan and China have terrible histories of knife school attacks on kids. So I was thinking: would I rather be shot to death or stabbed to death. And the stabbing to death brings back my child hood terror movie episodes like "Freddy Krueger" and "Halloween".

School attacks in China - Wikipedia
Osaka school massacre - Wikipedia

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To help folks understand my position:

I am not against the use of gun ownership. I am just against the use of violence to kill or harm somebody. Obviously in the New Testament, they were allowed to eat meat. Peter was a fishermen. He killed fish (which is a part of the animal kingdom). Even Jesus had a fish barbecue for the disciples waiting for them. So it’s not wrong to take animal life in order to eat meat. When we go to a grocery store to buy meat to eat, we are reaping the benefits of animal hitmen. There is nothing wrong with this. They obviously would need a gun to kill animals, and I am not against Christians hunting for food with a gun, or with a bow, or with Chinese stars, or with lasers. The issue is when it comes to human life. Humans are not animals, and our Lord made it very clear that he desired us to not kill others in return (involving self defense).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Very disingenuous.

Your position boils down to Jesus invoked Non-resistance UNTIL he resists with divine power. And for no apparent reason, we ought to cleave his final act in saving mankind is resistance et inifini.

1 John 2:6 says,
“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

Jesus never once ever killed or physically harmed anyone. If we are to walk as Jesus Christ walked, and follow His life, then violence is not what He taught. Jesus took the beatings and was crucified. Jesus could have crushed any of His opponents into a little ball from far away instantly by squeezing his fist at them. He could have given people heart attacks, or sent legions of angels to slaughter many. That did not happen during His earthly ministry as we read in the pages of the New Testament. Jesus came to save. That is why Jesus wants us to follow in His same footsteps. Jesus wants us to go out and save others and not kill them.

Anyways, may the Lord’s good ways be upon you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bible Highlighter is teaching the false doctrine of pacifism.
This is old error that has been debunked.

Folks like Bible Highlighter teach Jesus taught we cannot defend ourselves.
A good example of a religion that teaches this is Buddism.

Tibet has been taken over mostly by the Chinese because the buddhist religion in Tibet.

Did Jesus say to let your enemies beat you?
Really?
To the point of death?



Bible Highlighter, is Jesus teaching you are not to defend yourself here?

True story,
A Christian and a Muslim worked for the same corporation.
One day the Muslim found out his college was a christian.
At lunch break. The Muslim walked up to the Christian and slapped him in the face hard enough to knock him unconscience.

The Muslim quoted the same verse Bible Highlighter quoted.

The Christian said after the shock.
Yes I believe this.
So the Muslim slapped him again!
The Christian did not understand this passage as Bible Highlighter does not understand these
Passages.

So, Bible Highlighter I want to get together with you physically.
I will beat you until you are unconscious.
Allow you to regain consciousness.
And tell you what you told us.
Turn the other cheek.
And I will beat you again until unconsciousness.

Now, you sure you are right about calling Jesus a pacifist?

btw, I will also do this to your wife and kids while you watch.
You will not be able to defend them.
That will violate your teaching.

But what if I had a condition and you killed me? Is that what the Lord wants?
Does he want you to kill other believers in Jesus Christ?
To even talk about this hypothetically makes me worry about you.
I am truly worried you don’t know the Lord if you threaten other believers with violence because they don’t agree with you involving Theology.
Remember, 1 John 3:15 says that to hate your brother is to be like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
For if you did such a horrible thing, it would only show you are still the old man and not the new man in Christ.

May the Lord’s love shine upon you.

Side Note:

I remember one my friend’s brothers. My friend’s brother was a tough looking guy. He was tall, and muscular. You would think nobody would ever mess with him. He said something in a bar, and they got into a bar fight. Needless to say that the other guys beat my friend’s brother so bad that he was mentally handicapped and his face was disfigured. He died early in life because of it, too. Is that what you want to do to a fellow believer in Jesus Christ to make a point involving theology? I would say that you don’t have the love of Christ abiding in you if you threaten me with violence (that could potentially kill me). Are you out to scare families in Jesus Christ? By saying such things: You are not concerned about my soul, but you are only concerned in being right in your own eyes.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Remember the golden rule: Do unto others as you want done unto your self.
Would you want a believer coming into your home and beating you to death because they don’t agree with your theology?
Is that the love of Christ?
Did Jesus beat His disciples into unconsciousness when they did not understand something He was teaching?

 

[BarneyFife]

I think it would be amusing were it not so terrifying that men deem themselves justified in bringing such forceful influence to bear upon the consciences of others in matters pertaining to faith and morals. I consider myself no judge of whether another man should own a deadly weapon or not. It is God who sets up nations and rulers and also brings them down. I used to feel at perfect liberty to state my views on this subject. But in today's emerging clamor for the reuniting of church and state that spilled the blood of so many crusaders and heretics in ages past, I dare not strengthen the hands that would have this scourge brought once again upon this groaning sphere and especially this mightiest of nations--since Rome of old--which I and my father's did so proudly serve.

 

[quietthinker]

The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!
Surprised? hmmmm