The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7 in Textus Receptus versions)

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DancesWithGnostics

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1 John 5:7 in the KJV is probably the clearest example of Trinity teaching in the Bible.

Many modern Bibles do not have this - it is alleged that the "earliest and best" manuscripts do not have this verse

1Jo 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I have long since ceased from using the KJV 1 John 5:7 as a "proof-text" of Trinity - the non-Trinitarians squeal like pigs when they hear it.
 

jaybird

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i always understood that the Father Son and Spirit were footnotes that later got added to scripture
 
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DPMartin

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1 John 5:7 in the KJV is probably the clearest example of Trinity teaching in the Bible.

Many modern Bibles do not have this - it is alleged that the "earliest and best" manuscripts do not have this verse

1Jo 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I have long since ceased from using the KJV 1 John 5:7 as a "proof-text" of Trinity - the non-Trinitarians squeal like pigs when they hear it.

for the sake of discussion, it my understanding that the Youngs literal is as close as it gets when it comes to original text in a English translation but don't hold me to that, here is the Youngs


1Jn 5:6  This one is he who did come through water and blood—Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth, 
1Jn 5:7  because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these—the three—are one; 
1Jn 5:8  and three are who are testifying in the earth , the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.

now if this translation is accurate if you remove the added italicized there doesn't seem to be any reference to testifying in heaven. that doesn't mean its incorrect but its generally understood that italicized text is added to the original for clarification, and in this case its added.

but as far as trinity:

the trinity is in the first three versus of scripture:


Gen 1:1  In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth— 
Gen 1:2  the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, 
Gen 1:3  and God saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. 

in 1 is God in 2 is the Presence of God (in this case now in His creation)

in 3 is the Word of God

all three are God to anything not God. therefore One. God is has presence and speaks in His Presence. and the Word of God is of God that goes out and returns fulfilled according to the will of God. so the Word is of God not begotten therefore a Son of the Father whom Jesus the Word of God made flesh proclaims note He proclaims in the presence of God His Father.


Joh_3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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tigger 2

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1 John 5:7-8

"7 because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

8 and three are who are testifying in the earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one." - from my own copy of Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible and the Internet's. (Notice the brackets.)

Furthermore, Young wrote a companion commentary to his Bible called Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary. For 1 John 5:7 he wrote: "lit. 'because there are three who are bearing witness [omit 'in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are (with a view to) one (testimony), and there are three who are bearing witness in the earth].' These words [in brackets] are wanting in all the Greek MSS. except two, in all the oldest Ancient Versions, and in all the the quotations of of v. 6-8 in the ancient Fathers before A.D. 475; it is undoubtedly a mere gloss written thoughtlessly on the margin [by a later copyist]."

And as for accurate Bibles, the ASV is usually considered to be superior to Young's.
 

jaybird

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if i believed in a doctrine and they edited scripture to support it, it would make me very suspicious of the doctrine.
 
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tigger 2

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Here's another change: 1 Tim. 3:16.

Noted trinitarian Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Even trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.


 

WaterSong

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It was my understanding that what appears to be a triune description in that verse was actually an amalgam of all verses that pertain to the one God. God, being the title afforded the holy spirit. Whereas when reading the new testament the word part of that passage reminds of of John 1:1
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God."
 

tigger 2

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John 1:1c - English translation: “The Word was God [or ‘a god’].”

- NT Greek:

θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος


god was the word.”

The NT Greek word for “God” and “god” is theos (θεὸς). In the writings of the Gospel writers (including John) when an unmodified theos (the form used for subjects and predicate nouns) is accompanied by the article, “the” (ὁ [ho] in Greek), and has no added phrases (e.g., “the god of this world), then it always refers to the only true God. - See DEF study.

But Jn 1:1c has an unmodified θεὸς without the article. Therefore, even some trinitarian scholars are forced to admit that this passage may be literally translated as “the Word was a god”! This includes W. E. Vine (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words); Dr. C. H. Dodd (director of the New English Bible project); Murray J. Harris (Jesus as God); Dr. Robert Young (Young’s Analytical Concordance, Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, etc.). Of course, being trinitarians, they often insist that the correct interpretation of such a literal translation must be, somehow, trinitarian.

"In John i.1 (θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), the article could not have been omitted if John had wished to designate the λόγος as θεὸς, because in such a connexion θεὸς without the article would be ambiguous." - A treatise on the grammar of New Testament Greek : regarded as a sure basis for New Testament exegesis, p. 151, G. B. Winer.

The usual trinitarian interpretation for John 1:1c (“the Word was God”) is based on the fact that an unmodified theos is used as a predicate noun (predicate nominative) without a definite article (anarthrous) and comes before the verb in the original New Testament (NT) Greek. When you find an anarthrous predicate noun in that position, some trinitarians will say, it is to be interpreted differently (“qualitative” or “definite”: i.e., as though it actually had the definite article with it) from a predicate noun which normally comes after the verb.

Although such a “reversed” word order is extremely rare in English, it is common in NT Greek because word order within a sentence is not significant in NT Greek!

In fact, one of the first things a beginning student of NT Greek learns is that word order has very little, if any, significance as far as the meaning is concerned. For example, respected NT Greek authorities, Dr. Alfred Marshall and Prof. J. Gresham Machen tell us in their NT Greek primers that, unlike English, NT Greek does not use word order to convey meanings but instead uses the individual endings on each word (inflections).

“The English translation must be determined by observing the [Greek word] endings, not by observing the [word] order.” - p. 27, New Testament Greek For Beginners, Machen, The Macmillan Co. (Cf., pp. 7, 22, New Testament Greek Primer, Marshall, Zondervan)

Professor Machen, in fact, when giving an example of a predicate nominative in NT Greek, placed the predicate nominative (“man”) before the verb (“the apostle man is”) and translated it “the apostle is a man.”! - p. 50, Machen.

In Exercise 8 (p.44) of the Rev. Dr. Alfred Marshall’s New Testament Greek Primer, the noted trinitarian scholar asks us to translate (phoneus esti) into English. (Notice that the predicate noun [phoneus, ‘murderer’] precedes the verb [esti, ‘he is’].) The answer is given on p. 153 where Dr. Marshall translates it as “He is a murderer.” – Zondervan Publishing House, 1962.

In Learn New Testament Greek by John H. Dobson we find on p. 64 two interesting Greek clauses and their translations by Dobson: the clauses are: (1) προφήτης ἐστίν and (2) προφήτης ἦν. In both of these the predicate noun (προφήτης) comes before the verb (‘he is’ and ‘he was’).

Here is how Dobson has translated these two clauses: “He is a prophet.” And “He was a prophet.” – Baker Book House, 1989.

And trinitarian NT Greek experts Dana & Mantey specifically give us an example of “a parallel case to what we have in John 1:1”! Yes, these prominent trinitarian scholars have translated “market was the place” in the literal ancient Greek as “and the place was a market.” They even described this example as a parallel to John 1:1! - p. 148, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Macmillan Publ., 1957 printing.

We also find trinitarian NT scholars B. M. Newman and Eugene A Nida using a similar example to describe the usage at John 1:1c - “John Smith is a teacher.” - p. 9, A Translator’s Handbook on The Gospel of John, United Bible Societies, 1980. (They want it to be understood in a trinitarian “Qualitative” manner, however.)

A proper examination of John's grammar usage shows that he intended "a god" not "God" in John 1:1c.

For those few who care enough to actually examine the truth of this important scripture, here is my personal study of John 1:1c and John's usage: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-11c-primer_21.html

and/or http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html
 
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Mattathias

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Here's another change: 1 Tim. 3:16.

Noted trinitarian Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Even trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.


I would like to add the following information in support of your post.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html
 

DancesWithGnostics

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Act 5:3

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
 

DancesWithGnostics

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2 back to back verses - Peter says Ananias lied to the Holy Ghost - and LIED TO GOD

HINT HINT
HOLY GHOST BE GOD!!
 

DancesWithGnostics

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Isa 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,

The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
 

DancesWithGnostics

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What do ya know - Jesus be God too! A young child in Isaiah's time was born to Hebrew ALMA - after Septuagint was translated - it is a PARTHENOS (real virgin) who gives birth to Jesus who is called MIGHTY GOD - EVERLASTING FATHER - PRINCE OF PEACE
 

DancesWithGnostics

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Just in case you hadn't heard
In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God
And the Word WAS GOD

- Phil Keaggy

(and the Jehovah's Witnesses say : the Word was a god)