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The legalization of murder by abortion

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality Forum' started by Alan McDougall, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    kiwimac,

    I think you should go to medical science to determine when human life begins. Here are some .....
    Medical Aspects

    In 1970, in the midst of the United States’ abortion debate (it was legalised in 1973), the editors of the journal California Medicine (the official journal of the California Medical Association), noticed “the curious avoidance of the scientific fact, which everyone really knows, that human life begins at conception and is continuous whether intra- or extra-uterine until death” (in Davis 1985, p. 137).

    The U.S. Senate Judiciary Subcommittee, in 1981, held hearings on when life begins. The following are samples of evidence submitted by the medical profession (in Shettles with Rorvik 1983, pp. 113-114):


    Dr Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris:

    When does life begin? . . . Life has a very long history, but each individual has a very neat beginning, the moment of its conception . . . To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being, conception to old age, is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.​

    Dr Watson A. Bowes, Jr, of the University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter — the beginning is conception.”

    Dr Alfred Bongiovanni of the University of Pennsylvania Medical School, after noting that standard medical texts have long taught that human life begins at conception, added: "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty . . . is not a human being".

    Dr Micheline Matthews-Roth, research associate of Harvard University Medical School: “It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception.”

    The medical breakthrough came in the 1960s when Francis Crick and James Watson discovered the genetic code (DNA).

    "The genotype — the inherited characteristics of a unique human being — is established in the conception process and will remain in force for the entire life of that individual. No other event in biological life is so decisive as this one . . . The genotype that is conferred at conception does not merely start life, it defines life" (in Shettles with Rorvik 1983, pp. 36-37).

    Biologically, human life begins when the sperm merges with the ovum to form the zygote, containing the full set of 46 chromosomes necessary to create new human life. “The haploid sex cells (ova or spermatozoa) are parts of potential human life. The zygote is human life” (Shettles with Rorvik 1983, p. 40, emphasis in original). The First International Conference on Abortion in Washington D.C., 1967, declared: “We can find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg and the birth of an infant at which point we can say that this in not a human life” (in Stott 1984, p. 286).

    The above information is taken from my article, Abortion and Life: A Christian Perspective.

    Oz

    Works consulted:

    Davis, J. J. 1985, Evangelical Ethics: Issues Facing the Church Today, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, New Jersey.

    Shettles, L. B. with D. Rorvik 1983 , Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI.

    Stott, J. 1984, Issues Facing Christians Today, Marshalls, Basingstoke, Hants.
     
  2. Sword

    Sword Well-Known Member

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    I dont really care what men made up in the tulmud.

    Jer 1:5
    Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    You are a soul before your even born.
     
  3. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    No, the verse quoted refers solely to Jeremiah. No one else.
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    However, you were the one referring to the Talmud. Who composed the Talmud? Was it breathed out by God?

    Oz
     
  5. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    I am not arguing that the foetus is not alive nor human simply that until it is born it does not have the same rights as the person carrying it and that their needs are more important.
     
  6. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    You do recall WHO we got the OT from?
     
  7. Sword

    Sword Well-Known Member

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    Yes God
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    kiwimac,

    That is not what you have argued in a previous post. At #17 you argued:
    • 'A foetus is not a child';
    • Abortion is not murder as it is not 'the unlawful taking of a human life';
    • 'Abortion is not unlawful thus not murder';
    I've provided you with medical evidence that a foetus is a living human being (a child) in the womb.

    In your country and mine, who determines whether killing the unborn child is murder? Human governments do. Therefore, the killing of an unborn child that is now not a murderous offense, is a human invention.

    Your argument that 'abortion is not unlawful thus not murder' rests on an untenable position, as untenable as saying that homosexual marriage is marriage.

    From a Christian perspective, is the killing of the unborn foetus murder? The following information is taken from my article, Abortion and Life: A Christian Perspective.

    In 97 countries (39% of the world population) abortions are illegal ('Women's Issues', 2004). The American Journal of Public Health had an article in 2013 that stated, 'According to the most recent research ... roughly 39% of the world’s population lives in countries with highly restrictive laws governing abortion' (Finer & Fine 2013). So, whether abortion is murder or not is being determined by governments around the world.

    Foetus is fully human: Biblical arguments
    1. Unborn babies are called “children,” the same word used of infants and young children (Luke 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; Exodus 21:22), and sometimes even of adults (1 Kings 3:17).
    2. The unborn are created by God (Psalm 139:13) just as God created Adam and Eve in his image (Genesis 1:27).
    3. The life of the unborn is protected by the same punishment for injury or death (Ex. 21:22) as that of an adult (Gen. 9:6).
    4. Christ was human (the God-man) from the point he was conceived in Mary’s womb (Matt. 1:20-21; Luke 1:26-27).
    5. The image of God includes “male and female” (Gen. 1:27), but it is a scientific fact that maleness or femaleness (sex) is determined at the moment of conception.
    6. Unborn children possess personal characteristics such as sin (Ps. 51:5) and joy that are distinctive of human beings.
    7. Personal pronouns are used to describe unborn children (Jeremiah 1:5 LXX; Matt. 1:20-21) just as any other human being.
    8. The unborn are said to be known intimately and personally by God as he would know any other person (Ps. 139:15-16; Jer. 1:5).
    9. The unborn are even called by God before birth (Gen. 25:22-23; Judges. 13:2-7; Isaiah. 49:1, 5; Galatians 1:15).
    10. Guilt from an abortion is experienced, therefore, because a person has broken the law of God (sinned), “You shall not murder” (Ex. 20:13; Matt. 5:21; 19:18; Romans 13:9). Forgiveness can be received through confession to Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9).

    Dr Norman Geisler therefore concludes:

    See the article, 'A physician tells why abortion is murder'.

    I, therefore, find your view that 'abortion is not murder' to be unjustified as it is not supported by evidence.

    Oz

    Works consulted

    Finer, L & Fine, J B 2013. Abortion law around the world: Progress and pushback. American Journal of Public Health (online), vol 103(4), 585-589. Available at: Abortion Law Around the World: Progress and Pushback (Accessed 20 May 2017).

    Geisler, N. L. 1989. Christian ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos (an imprint of Inter-Varsity Press).

    “Women’s Issues” 2004 (Online). Available at: http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm (Accessed 21 September 2004). At 20 May 2017 this link was not available online.
     
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  9. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    via the Jews.
     
  10. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    I
    I disagree with Geisler and agree with the Jewish position on this matter.
     
  11. Sword

    Sword Well-Known Member

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    Nope through His word. Via the Holy Ghost.
     
  12. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    Did you miss the whole "Old Testament kept by the Jews, written by them?"
     
  13. Sword

    Sword Well-Known Member

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    Nah did you miss the never Keep the law and Jesus had to come?
     
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Geisler agrees with the biblical view and so do I.
     
  15. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    You appear to be suggesting that the Jewish view is not biblical and I would like you to support this.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Where?
     
  17. kiwimac

    kiwimac Member

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    Kiwimac
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    This is the Jewish view:

    Exodus 21:22-25
    The ESV renders these verses: “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

    Some have used this passage to support a permissive view of abortion. One interpretation of the passage is that

    if a man causes a pregnant woman to have a miscarriage, but no further harm comes to the woman, then capital punishment is not required for the loss of the life of the unborn child, no matter how advanced the pregnancy. According to this interpretation, Old Testament law does not consider the unborn child a soul or human life, thus implying a clear distinction between the value of the life of the unborn child and that of the mother (Davis 1985:150-151).​

    The “miscarriage” translation is rejected on linguistic grounds, since the verb yatza when used alone (as in this passage) refers to a live birth, not a miscarriage (cf. Gen.25:25, 26; 38:28-30; Jer.1:5; 20:18). Therefore, the better translation is “premature live birth” rather than “miscarriage”. “The text actually treats the life of the mother and that of the unborn child as equally valuable” (Davis 1985:151; see Davis for a detailed explanation).

    God clearly sees the unborn child as already a human being, made in His image. Killing of such a person (abortion) is MURDER.

    In this abortion debate, Harold O.J. Brown argued persuasively that the burden of proof is on the advocates of a permissive position to show that the unborn child is not human.

    If a hunter were to see a movement behind a bush and shoot at it, without being sure that the movement were not caused by a human being rather than by an animal, such an action would be morally irresponsible. Regarding abortion, any doubts concerning the humanity of the unborn child should be resolved in favor of developing human life (Brown 1977:119).​

    [​IMG]

    (image courtesy Amazing animations)

    The above information is taken from my article: Abortion and Life: A Christian Perspective

    Oz

    Works consulted

    Brown, H. O. J. 1977, Death Before Birth, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville.

    Davis, J. J. 1985, Evangelical Ethics: Issues Facing the Church Today, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Phillipsburg, New Jersey.
     
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  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    That does not make the Talmud from God via the Jews. Yours is a leap into illogic.
     
  20. Abiding Grace

    Abiding Grace Member

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    Great post.

    Psalm 139:13-16

    13 For you formed my inward parts;
    you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
    14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
    Wonderful are your works;
    my soul knows it very well.
    15 My frame was not hidden from you,
    when I was being made in secret,
    intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
    16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
    in your book were written, every one of them,
    the days that were formed for me,
    when as yet there was none of them.

    Here is a video of Summer White, the daughter of James White from Alpha and Omega Ministries. She is trying to get a straight answer out of these women.



    My daughter and I support this particular church in their efforts to end abortion. It's called Apologia Church.

    God Bless
     
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