I can only tell you what is clear to those who have studied the scriptures and the hebrew that you are mistaken its why I presented the appendix written by one of the greatest languge scholars of his day Bulinger these are not just our opinions they are well studied things I can show you what the Book says I can present evidence of what people far more intellegent than I have taught for many years I can show Books like Enoch (below) but in the End its your call. Its only my duty to plant the seed of truth only God can make it grow Taken from the Book Of EnochVI-XI. The Fall of the Angels: the Demoralisation of Mankind: the Intercession of the Angels on behalf of Mankind. The Dooms pronounced by God on the Angels: the Messianic Kingdom (a Noah fragment).CHAPTER VI.1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answeredp. 35him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. 8. These are their chiefs of tens.CHAPTER VII.1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
The Lord Has Shown Me My Error
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From Enoch continuedCHAPTER VIII.1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl,p. 36[paragraph continues] (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun〉, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .CHAPTER IX.1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. 11. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, andp. 37[paragraph continues] Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'CHAPTER X.1. Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: 2. '〈Go to Noah〉 and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. 3. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' 4. And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azâzêl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dûdâêl, and cast him therein. 5. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. 6. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. 8. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.' 9. And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. 10. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.' 11. And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjâzâ andp. 38his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. 12. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. 13. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: 〈and〉 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. 15. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: ⌈and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth⌉ shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.17 And then shall all the righteous escape,And shall live till they beget thousands of children,And all the days of their youth and their old ageXII-XVI. Dream Vision of Enoch: his intercession for Azâzêl and the fallen Angels: and his announcement to them of their first and final doom.CHAPTER XII.1. Before these things Enoch was hidden, and no one of the children of men knew where he was hidden, and where he abode, and what had become of him. 2. And his activities had to do with the Watchers, and his days were with the holy ones.3. And I, Enoch was blessing the Lord of majesty and the King of the ages, and lo! the Watchers called me--Enoch the scribe--and said to me: 4. 'Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, †declare† to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: 5. And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness of sin: and inasmuch as †they† delight themselves in †their† children, 6. The murder of †their† beloved ones shall †they† see, and over the destruction of †their† children shall †they† lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain."'
hi kriss!!!
Did you read the scriptures I just gave in Job do you read the scriptures in Gen.??Here let me show you what the hebrew excerts say in the Bible appendix about this subject these are not our words but the Words of the Experts
Yes. I read the scriptures in Job. I have posted that you are speculating that they were in Heaven and not the Lord visiting them upon the earth. Just as the Cain and Abel present offerings to the Lord, so did the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord.I am not sure why you seem to think the Lord is incapable of helping me or anyone else to understand scriptures as it is written. I am sure you don't, but if you think about it, all these referrals pretty much places faith in the experts to explain the scriptures to us. We do not need experts. We just need wisdom from the Lord. They may help in some parts, but as in everything... we have to discern everything by the scriptures... as we should discern everything taught from the pulpit. Now unto the first post:
This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
Says who? The experts? If the word angels are written in the Bible, then why is it not written angels? Think about it. Discern that. Why would fallen angels be considered sons of God? They are fallen. They are no longer of God. See what I mean about taking experts at their word? It doesn't even wash. I had believed it, but no longer for the Lord corrected me.But thanks for showing all those posts. It does show your christian love for me and others in desiring to share what you believe to be true, but I cannot agree since the Lord has shown me my error and has corrected me accordingly. I guess, all I can do is ask you to take a step back and ask the Lord if by any slim chance, you are not reading it as it should be read as anyone else would as in not needing experts to understand the scriptures, but wisdom from the Lord. Just as the Gospel is simple, so then by reading it as is, one can with wisdom from the Lord, understand what is written without assumptions or reading between the lines, but taking everything into consideration and discernment with help from the Lord.You really did your homework, though. Whew. Thanks anyway, but I place my trust in the Lord to help me understand the scriptures. There is no way fallen angels can intermarry with the daughters of man because angels can't. And... fallen angels would never be called the sons of God, now would they?
Did you read the scriptures I just gave in Job do you read the scriptures in Gen.??Here let me show you what the hebrew excerts say in the Bible appendix about this subject these are not our words but the Words of the Experts
Yes. I read the scriptures in Job. I have posted that you are speculating that they were in Heaven and not the Lord visiting them upon the earth. Just as the Cain and Abel present offerings to the Lord, so did the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord.I am not sure why you seem to think the Lord is incapable of helping me or anyone else to understand scriptures as it is written. I am sure you don't, but if you think about it, all these referrals pretty much places faith in the experts to explain the scriptures to us. We do not need experts. We just need wisdom from the Lord. They may help in some parts, but as in everything... we have to discern everything by the scriptures... as we should discern everything taught from the pulpit. Now unto the first post:
This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2) We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.
Says who? The experts? If the word angels are written in the Bible, then why is it not written angels? Think about it. Discern that. Why would fallen angels be considered sons of God? They are fallen. They are no longer of God. See what I mean about taking experts at their word? It doesn't even wash. I had believed it, but no longer for the Lord corrected me.But thanks for showing all those posts. It does show your christian love for me and others in desiring to share what you believe to be true, but I cannot agree since the Lord has shown me my error and has corrected me accordingly. I guess, all I can do is ask you to take a step back and ask the Lord if by any slim chance, you are not reading it as it should be read as anyone else would as in not needing experts to understand the scriptures, but wisdom from the Lord. Just as the Gospel is simple, so then by reading it as is, one can with wisdom from the Lord, understand what is written without assumptions or reading between the lines, but taking everything into consideration and discernment with help from the Lord.You really did your homework, though. Whew. Thanks anyway, but I place my trust in the Lord to help me understand the scriptures. There is no way fallen angels can intermarry with the daughters of man because angels can't. And... fallen angels would never be called the sons of God, now would they?
So let me see if I understand this properly. I need an extra Biblical source to understand the Truth of the Bible? I'm sorry I disagree imensely with that notion. I trust the Word of the Living God and His Word alone. I trust that He has shown me the Truth of it through common sense and logical deductive reasoning. Anything else that fails to match up to that test fails in my eyes.
Hi Jag!!
I agree with scriptures that God gave us, Denver and Kriss. Not a good path to take Pariah. You can believe whatever you want...but remember we only got one chance in life.
Yep. Thank the Lord that this topic is not contingent upon our salvation, huh?
But the Lord told me that corrections will be made as we prophesy in part.. until we come face to face.. He shall be known as the Truth shall be known. Amen.
I agree with scriptures that God gave us, Denver and Kriss. Not a good path to take Pariah. You can believe whatever you want...but remember we only got one chance in life.
Yep. Thank the Lord that this topic is not contingent upon our salvation, huh?
Quote) So let me see if I understand this properly. I need an extra Biblical source to understand the Truth of the Bible? I'm sorry I disagree imensely with that notion. I trust the Word of the Living God and His Word alone. I trust that He has shown me the Truth of it through common sense and logical deductive reasoning. Anything else that fails to match up to that test fails in my eyes.(quote)__________________JkIs that what I said ? No I said the Bible interprets itself and it was translated from Hebrew and Greek and there are words in those languages that there are no English equivalent its why they have such a thing as a Bible concordance and bible dictionaries ever heard of them they are for interpretation because English falls short.
Hi tomwebmaster!!
You are wrong.
Nope. I am not, thanks to the Lord. He is the One that corrected me. I had always thought that, but nope. Scriptures says so otherwise. Fallen angels cannot intermarry anymore than angels can and... I would think God would be insulted for calling fallen angels the "sons of God", but He knows like me, I lacked the wisdom of the Lord to discern such terms in the face of experts... until He showed it to me.So.. since we are to discern everything from the pulpit, why can we not discern the things from the experts? Answer.. we can and by the grace of God, I just did. Thank you, Jesus. Amen.
You are wrong.
Nope. I am not, thanks to the Lord. He is the One that corrected me. I had always thought that, but nope. Scriptures says so otherwise. Fallen angels cannot intermarry anymore than angels can and... I would think God would be insulted for calling fallen angels the "sons of God", but He knows like me, I lacked the wisdom of the Lord to discern such terms in the face of experts... until He showed it to me.So.. since we are to discern everything from the pulpit, why can we not discern the things from the experts? Answer.. we can and by the grace of God, I just did. Thank you, Jesus. Amen.
hi kriss!!
Why would Seth keep company with Satan? As I said you will never be able to make sense out of all the Word if you dont get these things all you will do is find confusion and contradictions you can not explain
Now this is what I mean about assumption. It did not say Seth was keeping company with Satan. It just said in Job that the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord. Then Satan.. partycrasher.. came when the Presence of the Lord was visiting the earth when the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord. Now I know you will say assumption on my part, but consider this...Heaven is not mentioned...when Satan left.. he simply left the Presence of the Lord, not Heaven... as it is written.Satan said what his roamings realm was. Heaven is not mentioned.Did not Cain and Abel made offerings to the Lord? How was that done? By going to Heaven? No. So why is it hard to believe the Lord came when the sons of God presented themselves as the scriptures refers to the Presence of the Lord and not Heaven?Why would angels need to present themselves to the Lord? Why would fallen angels even be referred to as the sons of God? It doesn't add up, kriss. The Bible would not bear false witness of God by saying that fallen angels were still considered the sons of God. Nope. Nuh uh. I would think that some other terms would be associated to them to indicate their fallen state as they referred to them as fallen angels.... like the fallen sons of God. How hard is it to write that? An important word to define good from evil. So no evil can be in relation to God thus the sons of God were the line of Seth..not fallen angels. I would strongly recommend not taking the experts at their word, kriss. May the Lord help you discern the truth.
Why would Seth keep company with Satan? As I said you will never be able to make sense out of all the Word if you dont get these things all you will do is find confusion and contradictions you can not explain
Now this is what I mean about assumption. It did not say Seth was keeping company with Satan. It just said in Job that the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord. Then Satan.. partycrasher.. came when the Presence of the Lord was visiting the earth when the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord. Now I know you will say assumption on my part, but consider this...Heaven is not mentioned...when Satan left.. he simply left the Presence of the Lord, not Heaven... as it is written.Satan said what his roamings realm was. Heaven is not mentioned.Did not Cain and Abel made offerings to the Lord? How was that done? By going to Heaven? No. So why is it hard to believe the Lord came when the sons of God presented themselves as the scriptures refers to the Presence of the Lord and not Heaven?Why would angels need to present themselves to the Lord? Why would fallen angels even be referred to as the sons of God? It doesn't add up, kriss. The Bible would not bear false witness of God by saying that fallen angels were still considered the sons of God. Nope. Nuh uh. I would think that some other terms would be associated to them to indicate their fallen state as they referred to them as fallen angels.... like the fallen sons of God. How hard is it to write that? An important word to define good from evil. So no evil can be in relation to God thus the sons of God were the line of Seth..not fallen angels. I would strongly recommend not taking the experts at their word, kriss. May the Lord help you discern the truth.
Hi savedbygrace57!!
Pariah I agree with you on this..
Well, praise the Lord! I thank the Lord that you agree! Amen!Although I do not believe the matter is contingent to salvation, I hope the Lord shall continue to help believers in understanding His Words as I need His help as well. Always.
Pariah I agree with you on this..
Well, praise the Lord! I thank the Lord that you agree! Amen!Although I do not believe the matter is contingent to salvation, I hope the Lord shall continue to help believers in understanding His Words as I need His help as well. Always.
So why need the book of Enoch? Isn't that man's teaching? If the Bible is True and inerrant doesn't that also mean that its literal? The meanings of verses and what's being talking about doesn't change midsentence. That wouldn't make any sense and anything being said would lose its context. If a teaching doesn't stand the test of common sense and dedutive reasoning when lined up with scripture then it is simplly not true.That pretty much sums up how I feel about this particular debate. A teaching saying that there were other humans on the ark with Noah and his family doesn't line up with the scripture when tested by logic and common sense. There was only Noah's family on the ark and the animals God brought to him. Anything else just doesn't make sense based on God's own word to Noah.
Hi kriss,Then maybe you should prayerfully consider your stance since you are now referring to the Book of Enoch. Why? A poster by the name of Chronicles has lost his faith because of Enoch.The Book of Enoch had frauds made. The only real surviving copy is unreadable and unaccessable as there are only seven fragments found in cave 4. They got the whole kit and kaboodle from some Ethopian church and yet history has recorded that forgeries were made. The ones (the book of Enoch) they had accepted and had a run for awhile in the church, finally got rejected and burned. So why are you referring to a noncanonized book? So let us use that then to prove it is false.Enoch was saying that the result of the intermingling was demons. Flesh cannot give birth to spirits. End of story there. They burned it because it was determined as heresey and fraudulant.If that is not enough, then look at the levels of Heaven. Sounds like somebody taking poetic license there. The third Heaven where in Paradise there is that Terrible place for the wicked to be tortured. I know where they got that from. Jesus in His parable of Lazarus where Lazarus went to Abraham's Bosoms. That Paradise was beneathe the earth where after Christ died and descended to preach to the captives and lead the captives from captivity. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise. The thief did not go to above in Heaven when he died. So why would there be a Terrible Place in the Third Heaven for the wicked to be tortured?Read it here at this link a chart summarizing Enoch's level of Heavens.http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterTwo/Enochs...ionToHeaven.htmNow take a look at the Tenth Heaven's statement and try to tell me that is not someone taking poetic license with God's Words by stating where our "ancestors" came from.Enoch was written off of the NT. It is a forgery. It and history of misapplied prophecies by man has caused our dear brother, Chronicles, to go astray. If Enoch is not in the Bible, then I do not consider it gospel at all.
Hi kriss!!
Is that what I said ? No I said the Bible interprets itself and it was translated from Hebrew and Greek and there are words in those languages that there are no English equivalent its why they have such a thing as a Bible concordance and bible dictionaries ever heard of them they are for interpretation because English falls short.
That may be understandable as to why you do it, but you are placing trust in man's interpreting and translating it, are you not? Did not "Biblical scholars" refer in footnotes what a behemoth was as in a hippo or an elephant? And yet for all that expert training, where does a hippo or an elephant have a tail like a cedar which is a tree?That is why you have to discern everything by the scriptures for the tail of a cedar should have put those scholars to shame.
Is that what I said ? No I said the Bible interprets itself and it was translated from Hebrew and Greek and there are words in those languages that there are no English equivalent its why they have such a thing as a Bible concordance and bible dictionaries ever heard of them they are for interpretation because English falls short.
That may be understandable as to why you do it, but you are placing trust in man's interpreting and translating it, are you not? Did not "Biblical scholars" refer in footnotes what a behemoth was as in a hippo or an elephant? And yet for all that expert training, where does a hippo or an elephant have a tail like a cedar which is a tree?That is why you have to discern everything by the scriptures for the tail of a cedar should have put those scholars to shame.
Hi jkdjr25,
That pretty much sums up how I feel about this particular debate. A teaching saying that there were other humans on the ark with Noah and his family doesn't line up with the scripture when tested by logic and common sense. There was only Noah's family on the ark and the animals God brought to him. Anything else just doesn't make sense based on God's own word to Noah.
Amen. I thank the Lord that He has shown you the truth also. I thank the Lord that He has shown me my error and has corrected me. Pray that the Lord shall enable others to take a step back and consider what they are believing and that the Lord shall enable them to be corrected as well through with His wisdom in plainly reading the scriptures.
That pretty much sums up how I feel about this particular debate. A teaching saying that there were other humans on the ark with Noah and his family doesn't line up with the scripture when tested by logic and common sense. There was only Noah's family on the ark and the animals God brought to him. Anything else just doesn't make sense based on God's own word to Noah.
Amen. I thank the Lord that He has shown you the truth also. I thank the Lord that He has shown me my error and has corrected me. Pray that the Lord shall enable others to take a step back and consider what they are believing and that the Lord shall enable them to be corrected as well through with His wisdom in plainly reading the scriptures.
I'm glad for you. A good test of any teaching is does it follow when tested against scripture using our God given gifts of logic and common sense. Keeping in mind that I'm a literalist when it comes to the Bible, if it doesn't line up using that definition, then by logic it is not a true teaching.
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