Here's why I have a problem with that. This "gathering" involves the Lord's "shout", "voice", and "trumpet" - which some have said is the LOUDEST verse in all the Bible. How can such earth-shattering, catastrophic CACOPHONY ever be associated with a subtle, sudden, "secret rapture" gathering where those "left behind" see piles of clothes and jewelry where Christian stood moments before?
Where does it state in the Bible that the rapture is something that will happen secretly? Why are you assuming that piles of clothes and jewelry will be left behind? I don't think the Bible says either of those things.
Regarding the shout, or trumpet, it does not specify whether or not it will be heard on the earth. The trumpet and shout could occur only in heaven, where Jesus is - it is God announcing to Jesus that now is the time to go and gather the Church (because "of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father", Mark 13:32). The Greek word is
keleuma, which means a word of command, or signal - the Online Bible Greek Lexicon says, "an order, command, spec. a stimulating cry, either that by which animals are roused and urged on by man, as horses by charioteers, hounds by hunters, etc., or that by which a signal is given to men, e.g. to rowers by the master of a ship, to soldiers by a commander (with a loud summons, a trumpet call)". It's not a voice on earth that the dead in their tombs shall hear, for that will be the voice of Jesus (John 5:25-29).
The Greek "hagios" literally means "holy (ones)" which can refer to both angels in heaven or the redeemed on Earth.
That's irrelevant, because 1Th 3:13 says, "the coming of our Lord Jesus with
all his saints". Whether that's all saints only or all saints and all angels, it is still with all the resurrected Christians (resurrected because they will be coming from heaven). Therefore 1Th 4:16-17 can't be referring to Christ's coming to establish his Kingdom because he cannot bring all the saints with him if he is coming to resurrect and gather all the saints from the earth.
It's Biblically sound to conclude from Scripture that at the Second Coming, Jesus will come with His "holy angels" to collect the dead and living "holy humans" who rise at that time in the Resurrection of the Just -- then, after spending 1,000 years in New Jerusalem above, the glorious city will be transported to Earth and descend at the very time when the Resurrection of the Damned takes place.
At his second coming, when the second resurrection takes place, the first resurrection has already taken place, which is why the resurrected Christians can return with Jesus and share in his reign over the resurrected rest of mankind (the "rest of the dead", Rev. 20:5). As 1Th 4:14 says, "God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus", and Colossians 3:4, "When Christ, our life, is revealed, then you will also be revealed with him in glory".
The second resurrection doesn't take place at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign, it takes place at the beginning of it. It's not God's plan to sacrifice His Son Jesus in order to redeem all mankind, and then to resurrect all the non-Christians to say to them "Your sins are all forgiven. However, you did sin so now you can die a second time. Goodbye!". Their slate is wiped clean when they are resurrected, and they will be judged on their actions during the 1,000 years of Christ's reign, on how they react when they have full knowledge of God and Jesus, and having sampled an unrighteous world during their first lives they will then live in a righteous world, and Satan's deceiving influences will have been removed. It is a time of blessing and restoration to perfection ("whom heaven must receive
until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets", Acts 3:21 - Jesus' return from heaven is for the time of restoration of all things). Only after the final test and judgement at the end of the 1,000 years will the "rest of the dead" have eternal life, with the incorrigible suffering a second, permanent, death.
See, we can't demand that "hagios" here means "the Lord will come with 10,000 dead saints in heaven".
I agree. There is nobody dead in heaven, and there would be no point in Jesus bringing dead people with him!
The "day of Christ" involves both the "coming" and "gathering" simultaneously, as there will be nothing "secret" about His coming to "gather" us seeing that the "shout", "voice" and "trumpet" of God will accompany Him.
I believe that the day of the Lord/Christ refers to the whole 1,000 years of his reign, not just a single day.
There's absolutely nothing in the context that demands "coming" and "gathering" happen on different days - only the subjective inference of a "tribulation" which separates these two events leads you to conclude this. In the absence of such subjectivity, anyone will correctly conclude that Paul's referring to two simultaneous events, just as he does when he wrote "for the Lord Himself shall descend...and the dead in Christ shall rise...and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I hadn't even thought of the "tribulation" when I wrote that. It says, 2Th 2:1-2 (WEB):
(1) Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
(2) not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come.
This is similar to saying, "Concerning the cup final, and the first round match, don't be confused into thinking that the day of the final has already happened". It's saying that the cup final match had not yet happened, and neither has the first match of the competition even been played yet, so if somebody says that either have already happened, they are mistaken.
Jesus establishes His kingdom on Earth after the 1,000 years when the wicked are finally destroyed and the Earth is made new. No humans will be left alive on Earth when Jesus comes 1,000 years prior at the Second Coming, according to 2 Peter 3:10 KJV.
Remember, "They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years", Rev 20:4. So what/who is Jesus regining over for 1,000 years? How can he be reigning for a 1,000 years if he hasn't established his kingdom at the beginning of that 1,000 years? How can he reign over nobody, because there are no humans alive anymore?
I don't consider 2 Peter 3:10 to be literal. Why would Peter say (3:12), "looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?" if that meant everyone will be killed? Similarly Paul's words are not literal in 1 Corinthians 3:11-13 (WEB):
(11) For no one can lay any other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) But if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or stubble;
(13) each man’s work will be revealed. For the Day will declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself will test what sort of work each man’s work is.
The Man of Sin already arose long ago after the "Restrainer" was taken out of the way, just as Paul predicted.
I disagree with that, but that's another subject so I won't digress onto that.
Did you notice how the commentator conveniently ignores the chiasm in order to establish his conclusion that "the apostle does not say here "will raise them with Jesus"? That's a red flag that ought not be overlooked by anyone seeking the truth, friend.
Ignoring what the Greek word means and assuming it means what you want it to mean, is also a red flag that ought not be overlooked by anyone seeking the truth. The Greek word
ago according to the Online Bible Greek Lexicon means:
1) to lead, take with one
1a) to lead by laying hold of, and this way to bring to the point of destination: of an animal
1b) to lead by accompanying to (into) a place
1c) to lead with one’s self, attach to one’s self as an attendant
1d) to conduct, bring
1e) to lead away, to a court of justice, magistrate, etc.
2) to lead,
2a) to lead, guide, direct
2b) to lead through, conduct to: to something
2c) to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind
3) to pass a day, keep or celebrate a feast, etc.
4) to go, depart
for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah. (Ps 67)
