The Presence of the Holy Spirit

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marksman

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...but, in essence, I have answered as to what do the Scriptures teach. What I've witnessed from others, does not align with the Biblical testimony of being endowed with the Spirit. For, as I told you, I am not a Cessationist, but I think that the gift is rare, and only for the humble and faithful.

Ok, so I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. He is the first-born of creation, and the first-born from the dead. There is no salvation outside of faith and submission to Jesus Christ.

First, am I saved, and two, do I have the Holy Spirit, as far as your exegesis of the Bible is concerned?
That is for you to decide. All I do is teach what the scriptures say. Once I have done that I have fulfilled my mission.
 

marksman

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Yes and hats why so few know Christ, bible college is not even close to anything He can teach you, but God needs empty vessels and so few are willing.
I never said it was but I am not the sort of person that throws the baby out with the bathwater. To put it into perspective, there are millions of books out there that dissect the Christian way of life. According to you, we should ignore all of them. Unlike me, who does not ignore all of them, I use discernment to determine what would be a profitable read. I do this because I know I do not have a perfect relationship with the Father and that is why I sin. I do not hear perfectly from God, that is why I need to hear (read) books that will mature my walk in Christ and hopefully make me more Christlike.
 

mjrhealth

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. According to you, we should ignore all of them
If you put all that study into asking Christ you would find He can teach you for a month on one line in the bible, but so few are willing to ask, unwilling to put down there learning to seek the one who is the truth, so they threw Him out so they could "prove" them selves as if they could. Its the reason why this and all christians forums are like babylon filled with many voices.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

you see what that first line says....
 

charity

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Hi Charity, I must admit that the clear-cut Scriptures that affirm that one cannot believe without being endowed with the Holy Spirit (either be or after), has often perplexed me. In that, after my conversion, outside of whatever wisdom that one gains once they understand the Gospel, I did not dramatically receive some divine enlightenment, or necessarily experience an increase in fortitude and resolution to confidently proclaim the Word of God. Outside of the strength and wisdom that invariably is gained from reading the Bible, I have yet to witness the experience of the Holy Spirit within me.

But, here's the thing, who can? That is, where is the man or woman with such a supernatural wisdom or power? Definitely not at any Church or Christian forum that I've been on.

Plus, does not the following verses of Scripture imply, in one way or another, that one can acquire saving faith without being empowered with the Spirit?

Acts 19:1-6
19:1. It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3. And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4. Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, he Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Acts 18:24-28
18:24. Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26. and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27. And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, 28. for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 8:14-17
8:14. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15. who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:13-19
8:13. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
...
8:18. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19. saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted,
.. after that ye heard the word of truth,
.... the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom
(Christ) also after that ye believed,
.. ye were sealed with
that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
.. until the redemption of the purchased possession,
.... unto the praise of His glory.'

(Eph 1:13-14)

Hello @DNB.

Thank you for responding.

I simply believe what God says He will do in such verses as Ephesians 1:13. It is not a matter of feeling but of faith, and faith is just believing that what God says He will assuredly do. There will be evidence within the life of the believer of the indwelling new nature, in some form or another: something perhaps only known by the believer himself; it is not always manifested outwardly, but increasingly the conviction will grow, as he himself grows in the knowledge of God, of the presence of God in heart and life. :)

* In Acts 19:1-6, the believers who had been baptised with the baptism unto repentance of John the baptist, had been baptised on believing the word of God spoken to them by John, that they should believe on Him Who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus, as their Messiah. The Holy Spirit had not been given at that time. The same thing applies in Acts 18:24-28.

* In Acts 8:14-17
and Acts 8:13-19 we are told of Samaria receiving the word of God through the ministry of Philip, who preached concerning the Kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ: God confirming his ministry with miracles and signs. The Samaritan believers had been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ: but it was not until Peter and John prayed that the power of the Holy Ghost (pnuema hagion) should come upon them, that they received the gifts of the Spirit, as in Luke 11:13. This is baptism in the Holy Spirit which ran together with water baptism during the Acts period. The spiritual gifts were confirmatory signs, and were primarily to bring the People of Israel to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

* So these verses do not contradict the truth of Ephesians 1:13-14, which is the fulfilment of '
the promise of the Father' (Luke 24:49; and Acts 1:9): the first occurrence of which is found in John 6:27, and is attributed to the Father. It is the work of The Father.

Praise God!

Thank you

In Christ Jesus
Chris


 
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DNB

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That is for you to decide. All I do is teach what the scriptures say. Once I have done that I have fulfilled my mission.
No, I'm sorry marksman, you're evading the issue. You seem to be professing that once one is saved, invariably they receive the Holy Spirit. Thus, is my confession sufficient to be saved, and if so, do I have the obligatory gift of the Holy Spirit?
 

DNB

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'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

(Eph 1:13-14)

Hello @DNB.

I simply believe what God says He will do in such verses as Ephesians 1:13. It is not a matter of feeling but of faith, and faith is just believing that what God says He will assuredly do.

* In Acts 19:1-6, the believers who had been baptised with the baptism unto repentance of John the baptist, had been baptised on believing the word of God spoken to them by John, that they should believe on Him Who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus, as their Messiah. The Holy Spirit had not been given at that time. The same thing applies in Acts 18:24-28.

* In Acts 8:14-17
and Acts 8:13-19 we are told of Samaria receiving the word of God through the ministry of Philip, who preached concerning the Kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ: God confirming his ministry with miracles and signs. The Samaritan believers had been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ: but it was not until Peter and John prayed that the power of the Holy Ghost (pnuema hagion) should come upon them, that they received the gifts of the Spirit, as in Luke 11:13. This is baptism in the Holy Spirit which ran together with water baptism during the Acts period. The spiritual gifts were confirmatory signs, and were primarily to bring the People of Israel to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

* So these verses do not contradict the truth of Ephesians 1:13-14.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you Charity, good exposition. Then, please excuse the criticism, but I would expect much more glory and wisdom coming from the Church then I see today, and throughout the centuries. If the gift is an unequivocal bestowal to all believers, then existentially speaking, what a rather impotent and confused testimony do we have? Such division and contention within the Church, such heresies, paganism and syncretism. Can you direct me, Charity, to someone with infallible wisdom and truth, which would be expected from anyone with such a divine inspiration?

I believe that God's offer of the gift is universal to believers, and unconditional, but the reception of it requires faith and humility. Similar to salvation itself, the offer is universal, but the actual impartation depends on the beholder of faith. And so, like salvation (in my opinion), it can be lost. God offers the gift of the Holy Spirit, but you will see saved men waver in their actual ability to effectuate it.
 

charity

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Thank you Charity, good exposition. Then, please excuse the criticism, but I would expect much more glory and wisdom coming from the Church then I see today, and throughout the centuries. If the gift is an unequivocal bestowal to all believers, then existentially speaking, what a rather impotent and confused testimony do we have? Such division and contention within the Church, such heresies, paganism and syncretism. Can you direct me, Charity, to someone with infallible wisdom and truth, which would be expected from anyone with such a divine inspiration?

I believe that God's offer of the gift is universal to believers, and unconditional, but the reception of it requires faith and humility. Similar to salvation itself, the offer is universal, but the actual impartation depends on the beholder of faith. And so, like salvation (in my opinion), it can be lost. God offers the gift of the Holy Spirit, but you will see saved men waver in their actual ability to effectuate it.
Hello @DNB,

Thank you for coming back so soon. :)

Oh my! Yes, what can I say? For what you say in your first paragraph is true. Believers have failed to 'put off' concerning their former way of life the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and failed to be renewed in the spirit of their mind, and 'put on' the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Failed also to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace of Ephesians 4, and have allowed tradition, and denominationalism to hold sway.

Yet, we are told in, Ephesians 4:13-16, that one day we:- '... will all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.'

* I believe the above, for it is written: even though I cannot see it with my eyes.

* If you watch someone creating a tapestry, all you see are the various threads at the back of the work, dangling down and looking a mess, but the one who is working on it sees the intricacy of the stitch-craft and blending of colours which will ultimately produce something of beauty. We are God's workmanship, and His will will be done: that His Name be glorified and His purpose accomplished in those He has called into fellowship with Himself and with His Son by His Spirit. It is a work in progress in the flesh: but in the spirit it is a finished work.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris


'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head
over all things to the church,
Which is His body,
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

(Ephesians 1:22-23)
 
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CadyandZoe

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'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted,
.. after that ye heard the word of truth,
.... the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom
(Christ) also after that ye believed,
.. ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
.. until the redemption of the purchased possession,
.... unto the praise of His glory.'

(Eph 1:13-14)

Hello @DNB.

Thank you for responding.

I simply believe what God says He will do in such verses as Ephesians 1:13. It is not a matter of feeling but of faith, and faith is just believing that what God says He will assuredly do. There will be evidence within the life of the believer of the indwelling new nature, in some form or another: something perhaps only known by the believer himself; it is not always manifested outwardly, but increasingly the conviction will grow, as he himself grows in the knowledge of God, of the presence of God in heart and life. :)

* In Acts 19:1-6, the believers who had been baptised with the baptism unto repentance of John the baptist, had been baptised on believing the word of God spoken to them by John, that they should believe on Him Who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus, as their Messiah. The Holy Spirit had not been given at that time. The same thing applies in Acts 18:24-28.

* In Acts 8:14-17
and Acts 8:13-19 we are told of Samaria receiving the word of God through the ministry of Philip, who preached concerning the Kingdom of God and the Lord Jesus Christ: God confirming his ministry with miracles and signs. The Samaritan believers had been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ: but it was not until Peter and John prayed that the power of the Holy Ghost (pnuema hagion) should come upon them, that they received the gifts of the Spirit, as in Luke 11:13. This is baptism in the Holy Spirit which ran together with water baptism during the Acts period. The spiritual gifts were confirmatory signs, and were primarily to bring the People of Israel to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

* So these verses do not contradict the truth of Ephesians 1:13-14, which is the fulfilment of '
the promise of the Father' (Luke 24:49; and Acts 1:9): the first occurrence of which is found in John 6:27, and is attributed to the Father. It is the work of The Father.

Praise God!

Thank you

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Charity, I like this thread and I like your responses. With regard to the manifestation of the Spirit in the life of the believer, perhaps we could say that the fruits of the Spirit is one important manifestation of the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Keep up the good work.
 

charity

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Charity, I like this thread and I like your responses. With regard to the manifestation of the Spirit in the life of the believer, perhaps we could say that the fruits of the Spirit is one important manifestation of the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Keep up the good work.
'But the fruit of the Spirit
is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
faith, Meekness, temperance:
against such there is no law.'

(Galatians 5:22-23)

Hello @CadyandZoe ,

Thank you for responding, and yes, 'the fruit of the Spirit, in indeed one important manifestation of the indwelling new nature through which the Holy Spirit works. I praise God that you have shared that.

'For ye were sometimes darkness,
but now are ye light in the Lord:
walk as children of light:
(For the fruit of the Spirit
is in all goodness and righteousness and truth )
Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness,
but rather reprove them.'

(Ephesians 5:8-11)

* One fruit, but many segments.

Thank you.
For being a blessing.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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DNB

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Hello @DNB,

Thank you for coming back so soon. :)

Oh my! Yes, what can I say? For what you say in your first paragraph is true. Believers have failed to 'put off' concerning their former way of life the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and failed to be renewed in the spirit of their mind, and 'put on' the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Failed also to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace of Ephesians 4, and have allowed tradition, and denominationalism to hold sway.

Yet, we are told in, Ephesians 4:13-16, that one day we:- '... will all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.'

* I believe the above, for it is written: even though I cannot see it with my eyes.

* If you watch someone creating a tapestry, all you see are the various threads at the back of the work, dangling down and looking a mess, but the one who is working on it sees the intricacy of the stitch-craft and blending of colours which will ultimately produce something of beauty. We are God's workmanship, and His will will be done: that His Name be glorified and His purpose accomplished in those He has called into fellowship with Himself and with His Son by His Spirit. It is a work in progress in the flesh: but in the spirit it is a finished work.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris


'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head
over all things to the church,
Which is His body,
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

(Ephesians 1:22-23)
Hi Charity, thank you for the reply. Ok, I think that i see your point. It is more the overall building of the Church that testifies to the Spirit's work in the believer, as opposed to any individual themselves. Of course, there has been many people throughout the centuries that have clearly demonstrated both the existence, and the power of the Spirit within them. But the greater testimony is the Church and its growth, as a whole.
Interesting, I guess that is one way of looking at it, which arguably, is valid. But again, I just expect, on an individual level, there to be the same power of that which was demonstrated in the Apostolic age.
 

marksman

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No, I'm sorry marksman, you're evading the issue. You seem to be professing that once one is saved, invariably they receive the Holy Spirit. Thus, is my confession sufficient to be saved, and if so, do I have the obligatory gift of the Holy Spirit?
See what the Bible says.
 

marksman

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If you put all that study into asking Christ you would find He can teach you for a month on one line in the bible, but so few are willing to ask, unwilling to put down there learning to seek the one who is the truth, so they threw Him out so they could "prove" them selves as if they could. Its the reason why this and all christians forums are like babylon filled with many voices.

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

you see what that first line says....

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

mjrhealth

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Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes not surprised too much study not enough Jesus. As @justbyfaith says, HE has His love letter to us, really, I have a freind whop has a love letter. the only one her late husband ever gave her, but Hes dead, so does that mean Jesus is dead to Christians, because if they have Him would they rather not go to the one who is there Husband. Or is it, we Love you Jesus we just dont want you??
 

marksman

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Yes not surprised too much study not enough Jesus. As @justbyfaith says, HE has His love letter to us, really, I have a freind whop has a love letter. the only one her late husband ever gave her, but Hes dead, so does that mean Jesus is dead to Christians, because if they have Him would they rather not go to the one who is there Husband. Or is it, we Love you Jesus we just dont want you??

*&^%$#@!*&^%$#@!
 

charity

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Hi Charity, thank you for the reply. Ok, I think that i see your point. It is more the overall building of the Church that testifies to the Spirit's work in the believer, as opposed to any individual themselves. Of course, there has been many people throughout the centuries that have clearly demonstrated both the existence, and the power of the Spirit within them. But the greater testimony is the Church and its growth, as a whole.
Interesting, I guess that is one way of looking at it, which arguably, is valid. But again, I just expect, on an individual level, there to be the same power of that which was demonstrated in the Apostolic age.
Hi DNB,

Thank you, but I was not aware that this was what my words were conveying, and it was not my intention to give that impression.

I'm sorry, but I do not know how I can express it differently. Shall we leave it there my friend.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

DNB

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See what the Bible says.
...well, then I guess that I do, assuming that's what your allusion implied.
...what a rather dismal testimony then, I have to say, if I'm living proof of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit.
 
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DNB

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Hi DNB,

Thank you, but I was not aware that this was what my words were conveying, and it was not my intention to give that impression.

I'm sorry, but I do not know how I can express it differently. Shall we leave it there my friend.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Yes, ....sorry, my misunderstanding then.
Thanks!
 

marksman

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...well, that I guess that I do, assuming that's what your allusion implied.
...what a rather dismal testimony then I have to say, if I'm living proof of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit.
)*(&^%^$#@#$%