The Sabbath

[Bob Estey]

The Lord said we are to rest on the sabbath.

People argue on what day the sabbath is. I think some are missing the point. I think the point is this: We need a day of rest each week.

[8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 RSV

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Lord said we are to rest on the sabbath.

People argue on what day the sabbath is. I think some are missing the point. I think the point is this: We need a day of rest each week.

[8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 RSV

Bob, where in OT or NT Scriptures does God say that Mankind requires a rest one day a week? I don't believe it's there.

You're promoting 7th Day Adventist-type of theology. Whether or not you're 7DA I don't know, but that's what you're promoting, consciously or unconsciously, because nothing in the Bible suggests Man requires one day of rest each week.

So I'm willing to discuss what the Bible says about the Jewish People needing to rest one day a week *under the Law.* But that Law was only for the Jewish People and it was only under the OT covenant.

We don't hear anything in Paul's theology requiring observance of the Sabbath, with the exception that he recommended Jewish believers "look Jewish" while trying to witness to non-Christian Jews in Israel. On the contrary, Paul's theology was that every part of the Law was exclusively fulfilled in Christ, whose atonement we require.

 

[RedFan]

Bob, where in OT or NT Scriptures does God say that Mankind requires a rest one day a week? I don't believe it's there.

Not sure where you are going with this "not found in Scripture" argument, Randy. Although it's not in the Scriptures either, I require a rest every day of the week. All-nighters just do me in!

 

[SavedInHim]

The letter of the law says you shall do no work on the Sabbath. The spirit of the law says it is good to do good on the Sabbath. So it boils down to what law are you under: the letter or the spirit?

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, 'My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.' " John 5:16:17

"Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." Matthew 12:12

 

[Bob Estey]

Bob, where in OT or NT Scriptures does God say that Mankind requires a rest one day a week? I don't believe it's there.

You're promoting 7th Day Adventist-type of theology. Whether or not you're 7DA I don't know, but that's what you're promoting, consciously or unconsciously, because nothing in the Bible suggests Man requires one day of rest each week.

So I'm willing to discuss what the Bible says about the Jewish People needing to rest one day a week *under the Law.* But that Law was only for the Jewish People and it was only under the OT covenant.

We don't hear anything in Paul's theology requiring observance of the Sabbath, with the exception that he recommended Jewish believers "look Jewish" while trying to witness to non-Christian Jews in Israel. On the contrary, Paul's theology was that every part of the Law was exclusively fulfilled in Christ, whose atonement we require.

Here is the answer to your question:

[8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 RSV

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here is the answer to your question:

[8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 RSV

That did not answer the pertinent questions I was asking you. Not just, where do the Scriptures teach a Sabbath day of rest for the Jewish People under the Law, but where does God *require* the *human race* under any and all covenants to have one day of rest per week? You clearly did not answer that!

 

[Bob Estey]

That did not answer the pertinent questions I was asking you. Not just, where do the Scriptures teach a Sabbath day of rest for the Jewish People under the Law, but where does God *require* the *human race* under any and all covenants to have one day of rest per week? You clearly did not answer that!

It did. The Lord rested on the seventh day. Therefore, so shall we.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here is the answer to your question:

[8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 RSV

Bob, please notice how the Sabbath ritual came into existence. It certainly did not exist prior to the Law, indicating God had no concern to encourage his saints prior to that time to take one day per week out of necessity with respect to their health and religion.

Israel were tested in coming out of Egypt because although they were delivered from oppressive slavery they did have access, while still in Egypt, to food as well as its enhancements. So God advanced this ritual, based on His own pattern, to test Israel further to see if they had left Egypt to follow Him and His Law, or simply to escape slavery.

The Sabbath Week was patterned on a completely different kind of Sabbath Week that God had enjoyed in Creation. So, the comparison was purely a memory device, since God had no real physical need to rest. He just had come to the end of His work in Creation.

Neither did Man need to rest from his work since work, in the Fall, had become a perpetual bondage. He was required to work by the sweat of his brow until death. The ritual was more likely an expression of hope that God would ultimately deliver Man from death and from his perpetual bondage to sweaty work?

So this ritual was designed to be a means for Israel to embrace God in a pattern that reminded them that complaining should not interfere with their need to prove, through testing, their commitment to follow God and His Law.

Exo 16. 2 In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3 The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”
4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

 

[Bob Estey]

Bob, please notice how the Sabbath ritual came into existence. It certainly did not exist prior to the Law, indicating God had no concern to encourage his saints prior to that time to take one day per week out of necessity with respect to their health and religion.

Israel were tested in coming out of Egypt because although they were delivered from oppressive slavery they did have access, while still in Egypt, to food as well as its enhancements. So God advanced this ritual, based on His own pattern, to test Israel further to see if they had left Egypt to follow Him and His Law, or simply to escape slavery.

The Sabbath Week was patterned on a completely different kind of Sabbath Week that God had enjoyed in Creation. So, the comparison was purely a memory device, since God had no real physical need to rest. He just had come to the end of His work in Creation.

Neither did Man need to rest from his work since work, in the Fall, had become a perpetual bondage. He was required to work by the sweat of his brow until death.

So this ritual was designed to be a means for Israel to embrace God in a pattern that reminded them that complaining should not interfere with their need to prove, through testing, their commitment to follow God and His Law.

Exo 16. 2 In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3 The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”
4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions. 5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

I believe you are focusing on which day, rather than the rest. I believe you should focus on the rest.

 

[Hobie]

The Lord said we are to rest on the sabbath.

People argue on what day the sabbath is. I think some are missing the point. I think the point is this: We need a day of rest each week.

[8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11 RSV

So that there is no argument and clear up the matter, what day does God give?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I believe you are focusing on which day, rather than the rest. I believe you should focus on the rest.

Re-read what I wrote, because I wasn't completely finished editing. But I would disagree with you that I was ignoring the "rest" aspect. What you're ignoring is the fact that you're quoting a passage that emphasizes "the day that was being required to rest on," and using that to prove we need rest one day per week.

So I asked you to show me where we're told we need rest one day a week, and you just reference where God had made it a ritual to remind Israel that they had left Egypt to escape paganism, and not just to escape slavery. It was a *ritual,* which you use *apart from a ritual* to prove that Man needs rest one day per week. Neither God nor science has said that. But you just use an outdated ritual to prove it. Believe what you want.

Let me ask you this: why not use the same passage to prove *what day* we need to rest on? Why emphasize just "rest," and not the "day" we need to rest on?

 

[Bob Estey]

So that there is no argument and clear up the matter, what day does God give?

It would depend on the circumstances. Normally, Sunday is my day to rest.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not sure where you are going with this "not found in Scripture" argument, Randy. Although it's not in the Scriptures either, I require a rest every day of the week. All-nighters just do me in!

Redfan, I needed rest so bad that I retired early! ;)

Please don't think I lack compassion--rest as often as you possibly can (without, of course, being lazy). Just don't get in a legalistic bondage about what day you work on or what schedule you choose to work by.

Choose based on what you think is fair to your body and strength and health. I'm sure there is a need to rest--I just can't say what each person needs or even wants?

God has no precise plan for mankind as a whole--that may be because it's more of an individual thing. Some are more physically gifted, and some simply get tired faster.

 

[Grailhunter]

A day of rest? Terms and time periods and history. In the Old Testament the intent was to reduce labor. Not to let the animals go hungry or freeze because you could not close the door or put wood on the fire. But you should not cut wood on the holy day. Eating was limited to things you did not have to butcher. Mostly common sense to give you time to rest and praise the Lord. The Mosaic Law established the Jewish Saturday Sabbath with additional restrictions.

By the time of Christ’s ministry the Jewish hierarchy…which did not have to lift a finger any day of the week…looked for ways to edify themselves and make it harder for your average Jew to be compliant with the Mosaic Law. So Sabbath restrictions were increased to a ridiculous level. And Yeshua let them know what He thought of them and their efforts to edify themselves and their desire to hoard riches.

Eventfully the Lord’s Day was established as a custom….not a Law. The history of it is like a lot of things. Nothing changes like a switch in history. Sabbath observance was an issue for Jewish-Christians because refusing to sacrifice on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath could cause problems….kind of like refusing to stand for the National Anthem. Gentile-Christians were not allowed in the Temple unless they were circumcised. So their observance of the Sabbath was kind of awkward to begin with.

By the end of the 1st century the Temple had been destroyed thousands of Jews were crucified or other wise killed and Jerusalem was in ruins. The Jews felt that one of the reasons that God allowed that to happen was because they had been too tolerant to Pagans, Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians. By the end of the 1st century most Christians were Gentile-Christians and they took the helm of Christianity. Many Gentile-Christians saw the Jews as the killers of Christ. So there were hostilities between the Jews and Christians and the Gentile-Christians distanced themselves from the Jews and the Jewish-Christians and their beliefs.

At first sunrise vigils on Sunday to celibate Christ’s Resurrection became popular and eventually Gentile-Christians established Sunday as the Lord’s Day….as a custom that was a day to rest from labors and worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Yes, worship three Gods. For the Gentile-Christians this was nothing new, they came from a culture were worshipping more than one god was nothing new.

Most of this information comes from the early Christian writers who where Gentile-Christians. They did not support observing the Saturday Jewish Sabbath or the Mosaic Laws. The Jewish-Christians faded from history and Gentile-Christians were not tolerant of the Jews. The Romans had made the Jewish religion illegal so they could not rebuild their Temple and Jerusalem was not even a safe place for them and as Christian countries started to spring up the Jews were not welcome in most of them. Some countries kicked them out and during the witch-hunts and inquisitions the Jews were treated like witches.

The United States believed in freedom of religion and was the first Christian country to befriend the Jews. One of the reasons for the American Revolution was due to the struggle between the Protestants and the Catholic Church and the Church of England. So America was more tolerant of the Jews than they were the Catholics to begin with.

The United States supported the Israelites during the Six Day War. A miraculous event that ended with Israel taking custody of the Promise Land again, in six days. And when it was over….45 minutes later the United States made a public statement that they recognized Israel as a sovereign state. Other Christian countries eventually joined the US in supporting Israel and have ever since.

 

[Randy Kluth]

At first sunrise vigils on Sunday to celibate Christ’s Resurrection became popular and eventually Gentile-Christians established Sunday as the Lord’s Day….as a custom that was a day to rest from labors and worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Yes, worship three Gods..

I was going to "like" your post, GH, except there was this bit, indicating Christians worshiped "3 gods!" I can't accept that Christians were ever polytheists--the Hebrews in the OT Bible had been condemned for having more than one God, and Christians all knew that.

There have always been heterodox Christians with strange views, including some who were polytheists. But you seem to indicate all early Christians, in holding to the Trinity, were polytheists. I can't agree with that. I'd be curious to know where you got your info from?

 

[RedFan]

I was going to "like" your post, GH, except there was this bit, indicating Christians worshiped "3 gods!" I can't accept that Christians were ever polytheists--the Hebrews in the OT Bible had been condemned for having more than one God, and Christians all knew that.

There have always been heterodox Christians with strange views, including some who were polytheists. But you seem to indicate all early Christians, in holding to the Trinity, were polytheists. I can't agree with that. I'd be curious to know where you got your info from?

Just a misunderstanding, I suspect. One that has been around since at least the time of Tertullian, who bemoaned "They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods." CHURCH FATHERS: Against Praxeas (Tertullian)

 

[Grailhunter]

I was going to "like" your post, GH, except there was this bit, indicating Christians worshiped "3 gods!"

The Truth and History can be shocking. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. You can count right….Over the years Christians have been conditioned to believe if it does not make any sense that is the proof that it is of God. Which makes them gullible for every silly belief there is.

My statement was about beliefs in a time period….they did believe in 3 Gods and it does continue on until the Catholic Church came up with the false belief of the one God formula for the Trinity that the Protestants swallowed hook line and sinker for.

Of course the word Trinity is not in the Bible….but early Christian writers came up with that term but did not associate or believe it was one God.

So don’t feel bad, welcome to the proud crowd of victims of false beliefs. Theologians get kick out of people’s attraction to false beliefs. They may not know much about the Bible but they will know and defend false beliefs before anything else.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Truth and History can be shocking. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The creedal statement "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" is fully orthodox and does not have reference to "3 gods." You are terribly mistaken! Christians are not and never have been polytheists or tri-theists, except among a heretical fringe.

My statement was about beliefs in a time period….they did believe in 3 Gods and it does continue on until the Catholic Church came up with the false belief of the one God formula for the Trinity that the Protestants swallowed hook line and sinker for.

Sounds like you're the one who is heterodox?

Of course the word Trinity is not in the Bible….but early Christian writers came up with that term but did not associate or believe it was one God.

I'm sorry, you're wrong. The early Church Fathers did not believe in "3 gods." They believed in 3 persons and 1 Divine Substance, One God in 3 Persons.

So don’t feel bad, welcome to the proud crowd of victims of false beliefs. Theologians get kick out of people’s attraction to false beliefs. They may not know much about the Bible but they will know and defend false beliefs before anything else.

Actually it is *you* who don't have the truth, and have fallen victim to some very poor study habits.

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm sorry, you're wrong. The early Church Fathers did not believe in "3 gods." They believed in 3 persons and 1 Divine Substance, One God in 3 Persons.

Oh I am sorry….Christ never referred to His Father in the Gospels?

His Father did not say He was pleased with His is Son at His Baptism?

God so loved the world He gave His only begotten self?

Christ was praying to Himself in the garden?

Over a hundred scriptures that prove the one God Trinity wrong.

Christ explained the oneness concept and people still want to believe a lie.

 

[Grailhunter]

I'm sorry, you're wrong. The early Church Fathers did not believe in "3 gods." They believed in 3 persons and 1 Divine Substance, One God in 3 Persons.

Find that in early Christian writings....

There is no "one" involved with the Trinity...There is one Godhead but they are three with their own minds. With their own names....One God can know something that the other does not. One God can give another God authority....One God can have authority that the other does not.....One God can beget another God.....One God can be pleased with another. One God can ascend to the other….One God can pray to the other….

You believe a lie…