The Third Heaven

[Mighty Bear]

Before the invention of telescopes, we only knew two heavens. The sky where the birds fly and space where the stars are. When telescopes were invented, we saw galaxies. These galaxies were unknown to us, I think they symbolize the Third Heaven, the beginning, the morning stars of God.

Venus is also called a morning star, in mythology, she is the goddess of beauty and love.

Jeremiah 31:35 ESV Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 ESV "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."

Jeremiah 31:37 ESV Thus says the LORD: "If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD."

Galaxies do not follow a fixed order.

Jeremiah 31:22 ESV How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man."

Psalms 68:5 ESV Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation.

 

[Mighty Bear]

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are The Two Heavens, one physical, the other spiritual. The Beast that rises from the bottomless pit is the Third Heaven, who will clear its name when one receives the promised Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 3:7-8 ESV Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice, (8) do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,


Here's a nice song by Sara and Lily Hickman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKBWWAw5YdQ

 

[Mighty Bear]

The Ark of the Covenant.

Here's the album version of "Simply" by Sara Hickman

http://eyeballdub.multiply.com/journal/item/28/Simply

 

[jerryjohnson]

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are The Two Heavens, one physical, the other spiritual. The Beast that rises from the bottomless pit is the Third Heaven, who will clear its name when one receives the promised Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 3:7-8 ESV Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice, (8) do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,


Here's a nice song by Sara and Lily Hickman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKBWWAw5YdQ

No! How would the two heavens die, shed their blood, in the street of Jerusalem. No, the two witnesses are not the two heavens, they are men.

 

[JarBreaker]

No! How would the two heavens die, shed their blood, in the street of Jerusalem. No, the two witnesses are not the two heavens, they are men.

As much as still believing 2 men, as in 1+1=2 and no symbology/imagery making it ever add up to any different, this verse:


Deut. 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


... has made me speculate otherwise.

Still, this only comes into play because I hold the view of "those who dwell in the heavens, those who dwell in the earth, those who dwell in the sea" to be groups or categories of people.


KJV bad for that, usually find it saying call heaven and earth as a witness against you.

 

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There are three heavens or three layers of spiritual existance.

There is no need for speculation as the Bible has clearly and distinctly revealed the construction and nature of each of the three heavenlies.

The model for this triple layer universe is laid out in the old testament and referenced in the new.
Beginning in Exodus chapter 25, the Bible describes the floor plan for the Holy Tabernacle, which is a model of the triple level universe.
As there are three levels of access to God in the Tabernacle as well as the Holy Temple, which was built later, so there are three spiritual layers in the universe.
In 2 Corinthians 12:2, Paul writes about "the third heaven".
In Revelations the Holy City demonstrates the layout again.

- 3 -

The outer or first level is the world.
Here unclean spirits, demons, holy angels, and men co-mingle with one another and have their existance.
Here also Our savior Jesus Christ walked among us, the Holy Spirit ministers to us and the Father's limited appearance occured on a few occasions.
The outer layer or level is signified by the tabernacle layout as the place where the entire world lives and exists.

The second level or second heaven is a limited access area.
In the Tabernacle and Temple, this area was defined by the outer curtain and/or wall.
It's special significance is that admittance to the inner court of the Tabernacle and Temple was restricted.
Only God's people were allowed to enter there. Gentiles and/or unbelievers were excluded.

The innermost level or third heaven is also called the Holy of Holies.
The Holy of Holies was another curtained/walled area within the defined boundaries of the tabernacle/temple.
The Ark of the Covenant was kept there.
Only God's high priest was allowed to enter there and interact with God, no one else.
Upon the death of Jesus the curtain they used instead of a wooden door, which separated the Holy of Holies from the second level, was torn in two.
This signifies that God's people would henceforth have access to the Holy of Holies; the innermost level.

Note that nonBelievers are STILL PREVENTED from access because they inhabit only the first level.

The extension of grace.
We should here note also that Our Lord was sacrificed in the first level, the world, rather than the second.
This signifies that the grace of God is extended beyond His chosen people to the gentiles and that the world is the place where salvation is offered and obtained.
It is more clearly defined in the Book of Acts when God makes it known to the Jewish apostles that He intends to accept the gentiles; those who live in the world and are to be invited into the second level/heavenly.

In the final book of Revelation, the Holy City is revealed.
It also has restrictions, in the form of gates, defining who will enter and have access and who won't.

The inhabitants of the world will continue to occupy the outermost level of heavenlies and not know God except by report (as it is this day).

Hopefully, they will have a little more common sense about God's rule upon the earth than they exhibit at present.

 

[Mighty Bear]

No! How would the two heavens die, shed their blood, in the street of Jerusalem. No, the two witnesses are not the two heavens, they are men.

Still, this only comes into play because I hold the view of "those who dwell in the heavens, those who dwell in the earth, those who dwell in the sea" to be groups or categories of people.

To God man and angel have no difference, they are both sons of God and like men angels can also die.

Daniel 9:21 ESV while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

Ezekiel 28:2 ESV "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you make your heart like the heart of a god--

Psalms 82:6-7 ESV I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; (7) nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince."

Mark 9:1 ESV And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Luke 1:19 ESV And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.

Matthew 24:29 ESV "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Matthew 24:30 ESV Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7 ESV Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

 

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To God man and angel have no difference, they are both sons of God and like men angels can also die.

Angels don't die.

If they did, where would you bury them?

 

[Paul]

Angels don't die.

If they did, where would you bury them?

Some of them will be blotted out in the end. In Eze you can read that Satan is burned from the inside out. He will cease to exist.

 

[Mighty Bear]

Angels don't die.

If they did, where would you bury them?

Human beings grow until they become mature. This is unlike angels. Angels were created perfect. They do not have pain and suffering. They are on top of the world. So for angels to be conformed into the image of Christ, they need to be born again by dying.

John 12:24 ESV Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

John 12:25 ESV Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 12:26 ESV If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

Luke 22:26 ESV But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.


Here's "I'm Your Angel" by Celine Dion and R. Kelly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKEA6T4egfc

Some of them will be blotted out in the end. In Eze you can read that Satan is burned from the inside out. He will cease to exist.

Fire is the symbol of pain, destruction, death, pleasure and the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:16 ESV John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Luke 3:17 ESV His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Isaiah 66:16 ESV For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.

Isaiah 66:24 ESV "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

 

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Some of them will be blotted out in the end. In Eze you can read that Satan is burned from the inside out. He will cease to exist.

You have been watching too many movies.

Angelic spirits do not die. Some are holy angels and some are fallen. Either way they don't die.
The human spirit doesn't die either.

Now when we talk about spiritual dying, we aren't taling about the same sort of temporal condition that we suffer under in life.
Here in the world things begin, continue and then pass away. Plants, animals and even seas and mountains rise up and fall into the ground.
Everything changes.

In eternity, the spirit does not die. Neither is it burned up like a character in a Hollywood story.
It looks good in the theater, but the sense of it in the Bible isn't the same.

The Biblical context implies that eternal life and death are equated to nearness to God or distance from Him.

Beginning with the garden of Eden we see that Adam & Eve were evicted from their first dwelling at the same time that God stopped walking with them.
Never again did they 'know' God. This begins the story of the effects of sin upon eternal fellowship with God.

The principle is fully explained in the floorplan of the tabernacle of God in the desert with Moses. Exodus 25 I think if you want to look it up.
The same floorplan is used in the temple in Jerusalem.
The importance of it is closeness to or distance from God.

I could go on quoting scripture, but the essence is that spiritual death is separation from God.
The Bible describes two methods that God uses to attain this judgment; the lake of fire and the pit.

As a personal aside, specific descriptions of the lake of fire were popularized in the middle ages by the poetic work of Dante Aligherie in THE DIVINE COMEDY.
In that work Dante also describes people wallowing in pools of mud and acts as though it is some sort of punishment.
People do that today for fun and entertainment.
Dante also described people and spirits being burned as in a back yard barbeque.
The images are ridiculous.

The flames of the lake of fire are not crimson, orange and yellow; they are as black as space.
Have you ever experienced the pain of hunger? What color was it?
There is a burning, but it hasn't a color.
The image of 'burning within' is a reference to unsatisfied desire.

The closest experience humans have in the flesh is sexual desire or the simple pains of stomach hunger.
If unquenched, they affect the mind as well as the physical sources of their need.
If one burns within by sexual desire or unsatisfied appetites of the belly, one experiences a flame which is invisible but no less painful than real fire.
It affects the mind as well as the spirit; thus evoking the importance of fasting and abstinance.

If you don't think its possible to 'burn within' and still continue living/existing, I suggest a fast of seven days to illustrate my point.

This is the nature of spiritual death and burning and it is much worse than anything we can possibly imagine or explain because it never stops.

 

[Paul]

...Angelic spirits do not die. Some are holy angels and some are fallen. Either way they don't die.
The human spirit doesn't die either.

...

Your mistake is not knowing who the angels are and my telling you will not change your mind. So neither will this verse from Christ:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Some human spirits WILL DIE! Satan, an angelic spirit, is all ready appointed to death; he will be blotted out, cease to exist, not even remembered. The angels that followed him in the first earth age, and refused to be born of woman in this but instead came in their angelic bodies and had children with flesh woman are also condemned to eternal death, blotted out, cease to exist, not even remembered.

You do not have to believe this, but it's not up to you. It is what is written.

 

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Your mistake is not knowing who the angels are and my telling you will not change your mind. So neither will this verse from Christ:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Some human spirits WILL DIE! Satan, an angelic spirit, is all ready appointed to death; he will be blotted out, cease to exist, not even remembered. The angels that followed him in the first earth age, and refused to be born of woman in this but instead came in their angelic bodies and had children with flesh woman are also condemned to eternal death, blotted out, cease to exist, not even remembered.

You do not have to believe this, but it's not up to you. It is what is written.

Once again you are proceeding from false assumptions based upon personal fantasies and non-Christian theology.
(I can guess where it comes from.)

#1 Spiritual Death
The first principle of determining Biblical theology is to NOT make decisions or assumptions from a single verse. The devil, Adolph Hitler, and certain cults do the same thing. It doesn't prove truth, but it surely misleads a lot of folks who think they've found it.

Regarding the spiritual death, I've mentioned a vast number of CHAPTERS in the Bible (not a single verse) which indicate that spiritual life and death are equal to proximity or distance from God. Please go back and review the ENTIRE Old Testament references to the origins of the Tabernacle and the Temple. This is a form or model of spiritual reality and eternal destiny.

Quotations of Jesus regarding the destruction of the soul and body vary according to tranlation, but it is quite obvious to anyone that the body isn't destroyed in hell; it is destroyed HERE in the world. Therefore we must assume another meaning. To find that meaning we must look in the WIDER context of scripture. Looking there we find that judgment of God is exacted upon both the body and soul because of sin and separation from Him.

The issue here isn't really judgment, but sin and how it may be blotted out.
God is just and will certainly not judge anyone who receives Him in the name of the blood that was shed by Jesus upon the cross on our behalf.

#2 Fantasies about angels

In your post you mentioned "angels that followed him in the first earth age, and refused to be born of woman".
There is neither context nor passage of scripture in the Bible which relates to or alludes to angels either holy or fallen being born of woman.

Neither is there ANY reference in scripture to 'ages' of man, angels, history, etc.
Several cults and science fiction stories (ex: Lord of the Rings) use this device to create an artifical world and the author's own rules of conduct there.
None of it is Biblical. It is only a fantasy. If you buy this rubbish, I suggest you modify your reading list. It's affecting your mind.

This is heresy and the interpretation is born of the devil itself.

Angelic/spiritual creatures born in flesh by women are common subjects of fantasy in Greek and Roman mythology.
It's also the premise for a popular movie: PERCY JACKSON AND THE OLYMPIANS: THE LIGHTNING THIEF.
It's a reasonable movie plot, but it isn't Biblical.
You need to stop and realize the difference between fantasy and reality.
You've been watching too many movies.

Consider the logic.
If it were possible or if it had happened that angels could be born of woman, then the entire life and sacrifice of Jesus would be meaningless.
Supposing this demonic fantasy were true, then Christ would be nothing more than the progeny of a minor spirit; not God and not a suitable sacrifice for sin.

It isn't true of course.

Jesus was born of the virgin Mary as a result of the action of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God in the flesh.
His death upon the cross therefore implies a sacrifice of Himself for our sins.
Since God died, God's law regarding separation between us for sin is no longer in effect provided of course that one accepts this into their life.

It is not Universally applicable.
There must be a spiritual encounter with Christ at which time the individual accepts Him.

If you are indeed a serious scholar of the scripture, I suggest that you educate yourself in areas which are beyond the reading list dictated by your present mentors (who probably have no formal education anyway).
"Bible studies" of most denominations are notoriously skewed. Do your own homework and read those things written by real scholars.

As a starter I recommend the following;
Soren Kirkegard
Rheinhold Neibuhr
Francis Schaeffer
Karl Bultman
- and for desert -
C.S. Lewis
(Mr. Lewis often denied that he was a theologian, but he is now generally accepted as being one of the best. I suggest his collected works called MERE CHRISTIANITY and THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS. Both are short works, easily digested and quite enjoyable.)

 

[Paul]

...As a starter I recommend the following;
Soren Kirkegard
Rheinhold Neibuhr
Francis Schaeffer
Karl Bultman
- and for desert -
C.S. Lewis
(Mr. Lewis often denied that he was a theologian, but he is now generally accepted as being one of the best. I suggest his collected works called MERE CHRISTIANITY and THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS. Both are short works, easily digested and quite enjoyable.)

I have read all your "wonderful" theologians and NO THANKS, you can have them. I will stick to Scripture. Fact is we will never agree on this subject until someday your eyes are opened. It might be to late though. Oh well, I've done my job.

 

[Endzone]

I have to agree with rjp on this one. There is some kind of idea out there now that hell doesn't really go on forever. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Paul and Hammerstone both believe that hell isn't forever? Am I correct? Well I wish it were true for the sake of those that will go there, but I just don't see it in the Bible. The Bible seems to emphatically say that it will have no end, and that indeed all of us people and the angles are eternal beings. It's just a question of where we will spend eternity. I can think of no greater fear than the possibility of winding up in hell. I guess the majority of people just believe they could never go there. And like rjp says what if you endure all that pain and you are blind? All you can see if darkness but feel the incredible burning? It is just so terrifying to think about. We ought to do more to witness to people about their choices.

 

[Paul]

I have to agree with rjp on this one. There is some kind of idea out there now that hell doesn't really go on forever. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Paul and Hammerstone both believe that hell isn't forever? Am I correct? Well I wish it were true for the sake of those that will go there, but I just don't see it in the Bible. The Bible seems to emphatically say that it will have no end, and that indeed all of us people and the angles are eternal beings. It's just a question of where we will spend eternity. I can think of no greater fear than the possibility of winding up in hell. I guess the majority of people just believe they could never go there. And like rjp says what if you endure all that pain and you are blind? All you can see if darkness but feel the incredible burning? It is just so terrifying to think about. We ought to do more to witness to people about their choices.

Well, it does not matter to me what you think, if you look at the verses in Scripture that talk about hell you will see that it is the smoke that rises “forever and ever.” Satan is turned to ashes from the inside out. If you have ever burned paper you will know that once the paper turns to ashes it ceases to exist as paper. The ashes and smoke are forever. You do not have paper any more. But you can believe anything you want.

Picture being in heaven with that big old fiery pit burning off to the side with your lost loved ones screaming and hollering in pain and agony. It’s a wonderful sound and sight, right. That’s heaven all right :huh: <_<

 

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I have read all your "wonderful" theologians and NO THANKS, you can have them. I will stick to Scripture. Fact is we will never agree on this subject until someday your eyes are opened. It might be to late though. Oh well, I've done my job.

It is unwise to restrict one's interpretation to the manipulations of a single mind; mainly your own....or my own.....or whoever's own.

It's rather like a blind man leading himself down a dark road. Sooner or later he will stumble into a ditch. Wallowing there in the muck he will one day ask himself how such a thing could happen. As is usually the case, he will no doubt blame God for the accident and not his own indescretion which led to it.

The Bible describes the members of Christ as a body. As in a human body all members perform a specific function. One part is the eye while another hears. Still another may perform a less honorable function, but no less important to the maintenance of the whole. No single part is all important or independent.

The secular world has a phrase that is apropos to this discussion, "no man is an island."
We are all interdependent upon one another, especially with regard to interpretation of so important a matter as God's word.

The individual does a disservice to himself when he completely dismisses the input of others.

It has been my experience that I can even pick up a few gems from those of the atheist philosophy.

 

[Paul]

It is unwise to restrict one's interpretation to the manipulations of a single mind; mainly your own....or my own.....or whoever's own.

...

rj, I am not alone I a part of a relatively large group. I'm just not part of your group.

 

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rj, I am not alone I a part of a relatively large group. I'm just not part of your group.

Yes, I know your group.

I prefer the cross of Christ to cultic brainwashing.

You should know this however, nobody ever committed suicide on a cross.

When you work for your 'secret knowledge', that's exactly what you're attempting to do.

Foreign persuasions are unnecessary to a real Christian.
The grace of God and the way of the cross is all one needs.

Its God that puts you on the tree, not illogical Bible thumping heretics.

 

[Paul]

Yes, I know your group.

I prefer the cross of Christ to cultic brainwashing.

You should know this however, nobody ever committed suicide on a cross.

When you work for your 'secret knowledge', that's exactly what you're attempting to do.

Foreign persuasions are unnecessary to a real Christian.
The grace of God and the way of the cross is all one needs.

Its God that puts you on the tree, not illogical Bible thumping heretics.

So, you are judging me as a "cult member and a Bible thumping heretic." My knowledge is from Scripture but you can't see it. Someday your eyes will be opened.