The Twelve Tribes of Israel

[shturt678]

As said before J. I don't go with this statement.
Rev. 7 gives the detail of each Tribe!
If you argue against clear statements in Scripture, you must beware the consequences.
Floyd.

Thank you for caring again!

What happened to the "tribe of Dan"?

What is this "tribe of Levi"?

Seems we have something symbolic here?

Old Jack

 

[Floyd]

Floyd - If you are a moderator who is threatening me with expulsion because I am not towing the "party line", then tell me and I will leave of my own free will. If that is the case, then this used to be a much more lenient site than it is now.

If you are not a moderator, then it is none of your gosh darn business what I write.

No; I am not a moderator.
But if you write here and say things which are not scriptural; you have to expect comment etc.
Floyd.

 

[StanJ]

Floyd - If you are a moderator who is threatening me with expulsion because I am not towing the "party line", then tell me and I will leave of my own free will. If that is the case, then this used to be a much more lenient site than it is now.

If you are not a moderator, then it is none of your gosh darn business what I write.

As this is a PUBLIC forum, it is everyone's concern, who is a member here, as to what is asserted as Biblical. You may think you can post whatever you want, and to a certain degree, within the ToS, that is true, but you will NOT go unchallenged. That's what blogs are for, not forums.
NO, I am not a moderator either.

As does Genesis 49.

And as Rev 7 is the FINAL Revelation of Jesus Christ and what IS to come in the future, it supersedes what was written in Gen 49 in future relevance.

12,000 of the 144,000 members of the Elect will be Jewish from the Tribe of Judah. The other 132,000 will be Christians from the other Tribes, which had been "Lost" to mankind but have NOT been "lost" to God or to Jacob, when he gave his prophecies concerning his sons Tribes, in Genesis 49.

NO ONE decides which Tribe that they will belong to. That has been determined by their birth. Americans are of one of the Tribes of Joseph - as of Genesis 49.

Well if you can support that from scripture we can take a look at it, but NOTHING in Rev 7 or 14 supports you assertion.
As Christians are brothers and sisters of the lamb, they can't be servants. This is God's way of ensuring His promise to Israel that all of them will not perish.

 

[keras]

[SIZE=medium]Who are the Lord’s people? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Psalm 24:3-5 Who may go up to the mountain of the Lord and stand in His holy Place?[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]One who has clean hands and a pure heart, one who refuses what is false.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]1 Peter 1:5 Because you put your faith in God, you are under the protection of His power, until His salvation is revealed at the end of the age[/SIZE].
[SIZE=medium]Romans 9:24-26 We are those vessels of mercy, called from among Jews and Gentiles alike. Those who were not My people, I will call My people. they will be called the ‘children of God’. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Malachi 3:16-17 Those who respected the Lord met together and the Lord listened. Their names were written in the Book of Life, the Lord says: they will be Mine, I will spare and deliver them on the appointed Day, the same as a father spares the sons that serve him. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Malachi 4:2-3 For you who fear My Name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ephesians 2:11-18...for through Jesus, we ALL have access to the Father in the one [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]spirit.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 3:10 Happy are the righteous, all will be well with them.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 56:1-3 Maintain justice and do what is right. The alien who has given his allegiance to God, is not excluded from His people.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 55:1-3 Come for water, all who are thirsty....hear Me and your soul shall live. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I will make a Covenant with you. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 94:14-15 The Lord will not abandon His people or forsake His chosen nation, for justice will again be joined to righteousness and all who are upright in heart will follow it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 22:22-31 The Lord does not scorn the downtrodden or hide His face from them, but He listens to their cry for help.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Acts 2:21 Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord on that Day; will be saved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph![/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Psalm 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 57:13b but he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 61:36 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Revelation 7:9 ...I saw a vast throng, so many no one could count them, from all races and tribes, nations and languages standing before the Throne and the Lamb.... In Jerusalem - Rev 14:1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Reference: REB. Some verses abridged[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]All these people will be true righteous Christians, but the fact is; a high proportion are actual descendants of Jacob. Amos 9:9[/SIZE]

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I explained my reasons in the part that you quoted from my interpretations of Genesis 49 - Jacob's prophecies from God telling Jacob just what will become of his son's Tribes.
You don't have to agree with me - and that's fine.
I am looking for a man from Italy. You can look for someone from somewhere else. Someone else can look elsewhere.

Maybe you have a wild imagination

I am not able to find the things you claim in Genesis 49

Jacob was about to die and was giving his blessings to his sons

There is nothing to indicate it is prophetic to the future 144,000 of Revelation




.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, John S.

Retrobyter - Levi is listed in both Genesis 49 AND Revelations.
In other words, Levi isn't replacing any other Tribe.
Dan is replaced by Manasseh and probably Ephraim combined, although that Tribe isn't mentioned.

First of all, it is not the book of Revelations; it's the book of Revelation, SINGULAR! It's the Revelation of Yeshua` the Messiah. The word "Revelation" is a translation of the Greek word "Apokalupsis," which means the "Uncovering." It's an ACTION, not a state of being! "Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou." The "Uncovering of Messiah Yeshua."

Second, I was suggesting Levi because HIS allotment is not a portion of land but is the LORD!

Here are the sons in the order of their birth:

(Hebrew = English)
Ya`aqov = Jacob (Yisraa'eel = Israel):
1. R'uwveen = Reuben
2. Shim`own = Simeon
3. Leeviy = Levi
4. Yhuwdaah = Judah
5. Dan = Dan
6. Naftaaliy = Naphtali
7. Gaad = Gad
8. Aasheer = Asher
9. Yisaaskhar = Issachar
10. Zvuluwn = Zebulun
11. Yowceef = Joseph
11.a. M'nasheh = Manasseh
11.b. Efraayim = Ephraim
12. Binyaamiyn = Benjamin

Of course Leviy is listed in Genesis 49! Who said he wouldn't be? He IS, after all, one of Isra'el's sons! However, so is Dan! He, too, was one of Isra'el's sons! The problem is that Yoceef was given a DOUBLE portion in his sons being included in the list of his father's sons, his brothers!

Revelation 7:1-8
7:1 After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the land, on the sea or on any tree. 2 I saw another angel coming up from the east with a seal from the living God, and he shouted to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea, 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!” 4 I heard how many were sealed — 144,000 from every tribe of the people of Isra’el:

5 From the tribe of Y’hudah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Re’uven 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naftali 12,000,
from the tribe of M’nasheh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Shim‘on 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Yissakhar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Z’vulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Yosef 12,000,
from the tribe of Binyamin 12,000.
CJB

Thus, the tribe of Efraayim is listed here as the tribe of Yoceef, the father of the two, and M'nasheh is listed separately! It was the tribe of LEVIY who didn't have a land inheritance:

Numbers 18:8-24
8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.
9 This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs, and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.
10 In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee.
11 And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it.
12 All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
13 And whatsoever is first ripe in the land, which they shall bring unto the LORD, shall be thine; every one that is clean in thine house shall eat of it.
14 Every thing devoted in Israel shall be thine.
15 Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the LORD whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem.
16 And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.
17 But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
18 And the flesh of them shall be thine, as the wave breast and as the right shoulder are thine.
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
20 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
KJV

THAT'S the reason why I suggested that Leviy might have replaced Dan in the numbering in Revelation. However, we're not told why or what the meaning of such a listing might imply. It's just what Yochanan (John) saw and recorded. It's possible that someone in the transcription of the original Greek text made a mistake. We don't know.

Shalom, John S.

12,000 of the 144,000 members of the Elect will be Jewish from the Tribe of Judah. The other 132,000 will be Christians from the other Tribes, which had been "Lost" to mankind but have NOT been "lost" to God or to Jacob, when he gave his prophecies concerning his sons Tribes, in Genesis 49.

NO ONE decides which Tribe that they will belong to. That has been determined by their birth. Americans are of one of the Tribes of Joseph - as of Genesis 49.

Just a quick word on this statement: The two house theory is just that, a THEORY! There is no biblical support for the theory; the theory just doesn't contradict God's Word. I'm prone to believe that the two house theory has some merit; however, WE DON'T KNOW IT TO BE FACT! There also seems to be some historic clues that suggest its truth; however, WE STILL DON'T KNOW IT TO BE TRUE! One can BELIEVE it if one chooses to believe it, but one cannot PROVE it is fact. Furthermore, no one who might belong to these missing tribes has his or her birth records going back far enough to prove from which tribe he or she might descend! By this sealing, however, God's messengers will know who is part of which tribe, whether that member knows his tribe or not!

And, shalom, Jack!

Shabbat shalom, Jack.


But, the twelve tribes were NOT "rejected long ago!"

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Thank you for response![/SIZE]

The 10 tribes of the northern kingdom "Israel": Jer.6:30, "Rejected silver they call them, for Jahveh hath rejected them" + disappeared completely - absorbed by paganism. Again a remnant came came over to Judah.



They were TEMPORARILY BLINDED while allowing the Goyim (Gentiles) to come into the family! You just need to read and re-read Romans chapters 9 through 11 until it dawns on you what PAUL was saying. (NOT what others SAY Paul was saying.)

Again the 10 tribes have disappeared. Not so the two tribes that constituted Judaism in Paul's time. They will endure until the last Gentile is brought into the Kingdom, and the Lord returns for the great judgment - the remnant of Jews that become Jewish Christians of course.

Have you ever noticed that in the New Jerusalem there are twelve gates named for the twelve tribes of Isra'el and NOT A ONE of them is named "For the Gentiles?" So, to which tribe of Isra'el do YOU belong?

Old Jack






There doesn't have to be ANYTHING "symbolic" about the ten tribes. They have NOT, according to the Scriptures, "disappeared completely!" That may be your TAKE on this verse in Jeremiah, but it is not GOD'S take on it:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
KJV

Jeremiah 33:7-11
7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.
9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.
10 Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast,
11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
KJV

Ezekiel 37:16-25
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
KJV

These verses trump Jeremiah 6:30. So, again I ask: To which tribe do YOU belong?

 

[Floyd]

From old Jack:

Again the 10 tribes have disappeared. Not so the two tribes that constituted Judaism in Paul's time. They will endure until the last Gentile is brought into the Kingdom, and the Lord returns for the great judgment - the remnant of Jews that become Jewish Christians of course.


Re. the 12 Tribes:


The Ten Lost Tribes of Israelhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.htm


When the writers first heard of the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", it had little impact or meaning. Since that time (1960s) the term has been mentioned infrequently, which only served to increase the perplexity, due to the appearance of the people who were making the comments.
One such meeting in Australia in the 1970s, was with a Mormon, who declared himself a Christian, but later understanding showed the origin of such comment as that of Joseph Smith of America and his "tablets" of "later Biblical revelation in America". The person who made the comments seemed of Nordic extract due to appearance and stature.
Another such encounter was with an English resident in Yorkshire, of Scottish extract with red hair, who was born in New Zealand, and claimed "lost tribe" entity, and practiced Jewish custom. He was a well-qualified medical doctor of considerable intellect.
Again recently a comment was made by a Conference delegate, that in his opinion, at the splitting of the Tribes of Israel after Solomon's death, the "Southern Kingdom" of Judah and Benjamin was not made Lo- Ammi at Acts 28:28, whereas the "Northern Kingdom" of the 10 Tribes was! This was justified because of Jesus' comments to His listeners stating that "He came only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt. 10:6,15:24,18:11). The questioner was implying that the term "Israel" applied to the 10 Tribes of the Northern Kingdom only, and not to Judah and Benjamin.
At the time of the split, (approx. 990-930 BC, dating varies) and for approx. 200 years afterwards, the Northern Kingdom was known as Israel (Samaria), and the Southern based on Jerusalem, as Judah (2 Chron. 15:9). In between the start and the finish, and prior to the Assyrian takeover of Samaria and their dispersion, the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon joined the Kingdom of Judah during the reign of Asa of Judah; so that the original 10 tribes of the north was reduced to 7! This fact alone reduces the credibility of the many "Lost Tribes" ideas.
There have been many investigations into the concept of the Lost Tribes; one notable investigator is Tudor Parfitt, who is recognised as possibly the world's leading expert on the subject, and who has produced many documentary presentations for academia and the media. A comment he has made is copied below from Wikipedia:

Tudor Parfitt[SIZE=14pt] has declared that "the Lost Tribes are indeed nothing but a myth", and writes that, "...this myth is a vital feature of colonial discourse throughout the long period of European overseas empires, from the beginning of the fifteenth century, until the later half of the twentieth.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][2][/SIZE]
The full Wikipedia article follows:
The ten lost tribes refers to the ten of the twelve [SIZE=14pt]tribes of ancient Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] that were deported from the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Kingdom of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] after it was conquered by [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Assyria[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in about 722 BCE.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Claims of descent from the lost tribes have been proposed in relation to many groups, and some religions espouse a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]millenarian[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] view that the tribes will return.[/SIZE]
Tudor Parfitt[SIZE=14pt] has declared that "the Lost Tribes are indeed nothing but a myth", and writes that, "...this myth is a vital feature of colonial discourse throughout the long period of European overseas empires, from the beginning of the fifteenth century, until the later half of the twentieth.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][2][/SIZE]
The motif of "the lost tribes" first appeared in the post-biblical era, and was subsequently elaborated upon in a number of apocryphal texts. The return of the lost tribes was eventually tied to the notion of the coming of the messiah in the 7th and 8th centuries CE. [SIZE=14pt][3][/SIZE]
The [SIZE=14pt]recorded history[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is at variance with the legends elaborated in apocryphal texts. For example, no record exists of the Assyrians having exiled people from [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Dan[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Asher[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Issachar[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zebulun[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] or western [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Manasseh[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Descriptions of the deportation of people from [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Reuben[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Gad[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Manasseh[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Gilead[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Ephraim[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Naphtali[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] indicate that only a portion of these tribes were deported and the places to which they were deported are known locations given in the accounts. The deported communities are mentioned as still existing at the time of the composition of the books of Kings and Chronicles, and not wholly assimilated into the Assyrian populace.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][4][/SIZE]
DNA studies have found no evidence of the existence of any lost tribes. DNA studies have refuted any connection between ethnic Jews and most all of the ethnic groups discussed below, with the exception of the Lemba, for whom a Y-chromosome connection has been confirmed, but no maternal DNA.

A surprising number of peoples claim decent from the Jews including the following:
Mormons, Nestorians, Afghans, Falashas of Ethiopia, American Indians, Japanese, Berbers, Igbo's of Nigeria, the Lemba of Yemen and Southern Africa; to name a few!
By the time of the "restoration of Israel", at the close of the 70 years prophesied in Jer. 25:11-12, and prayed for by Daniel; under Ezra and Nehemiah, the returning Jews from Babylon were made up of the 5 tribes shown above, and were collectively known as Israel. Ezra only managed to persuade approx. 40,000 out of approx. 500,000 Jews to return with him to Jerusalem from Babylon, and that is confirmed by the letters that Peter wrote, and see John 7:35, and James 1:1; many years later. However, Nehemiah, who held high office with King Cyrus the Great of Persia, was granted further mandate to reinforce Ezra's work, and did so with great force. This was necessary due to the resistance of the Samaritans and other of the local people surrounding Jerusalem. The Samaritans were part Kin to The Jews, and the result of "assimilation" in Assyria and environs when taken into captivity approx. 100 years earlier.
It is worth here reminding ourselves of the origin of the term "Israel". In Gen. 32:28, Jacob had "striven" with a "Man" (v24), v28 "And He said, thy name shall be called no more Jacob (meaning contender), but Israel (God commands, orders or rules): for as a prince (commander, orderer) hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed".
Israel had 12 sons, and for a long time the group were referred to as "the children of Israel", eventually shortened to "Israel". At the splitting of the Kingdom at Solomon's death the term "Israel" stayed with the 10 northern tribes, and the southern initially 2 tribes as mentioned earlier, were called Judah; the terms remained especially during the time of bitter feeling between the two groups. As also mentioned above at the restoration in Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, the old term for all the tribes returned, and remained there after.
With this clarity in mind, the comments of Jesus mentioned above mean that they applied/apply to all Israel, including part kin, as evidenced by the encounter of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well; and her affirmation of Jacob as her/their forebear (John 4:12)! In v14 Jesus confirms that the "living water" was from Him, and was "everlasting life"! Had anything she said been wrong, Jesus would have contested it, but instead invited her husband also! The remarkable revelation from Jesus then hints at what was to come later, (v23); and did so at Acts 28:28; which expanded the possibility to the whole world, that He was showing in vs. 23-24. That condition is still de-facto, for any person to take the gift of Christ Jesus into their heart!
Returning to the case of Israel; there are promises from Jehovah God to His people the Jews which must be fulfilled, as God always keeps His word! The Promises/Covenants, were initially between Abram and God, but were renewed and reinforced in the following generations of Abraham's line; and are crucial to the world in the future, as Israel are eventually destined to be a "Kingdom of Priests" unto God and the world (Ex. 19:6, Rev. 1:6).
The traumas that the Jews have experienced in their exiles from their land in Assyria and Babylon; and especially since AD70, are as a direct result of their constant rebellion and turning away from their Jehovah; with whom they were in Covenant relationship regarding their faithfulness and behaviour, which Covenant they constantly broke. The details of this agreement are in Deuteronomy, together with the consequences of their failure.
They have played out their special relationship with Jehovah at present; and in Acts 28:28, they were made Lo- Ammi, as per Hosea 1:9; and that as a direct consequence of their final rejection of Christ Jesus, see: The Kingdom Age: [SIZE=14pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
Hosea 1:6 shows the detail of God's action, and the "ellipsis" supplies the unspoken, God takes away the Kingdom from them! (Israel here is the whole nation, whole and part of Israel's seed, and not just the northern kingdom).
Hosea 1:7 however gives the beautiful prophecy of their Messiah; as Judah was to be the source of the birth of Jesus the Christ (Gen. 49:10). It has to be remembered that the promise of Messiah was to the Tribes of Israel only, and Who was also to be the ultimate "lawgiver", Who would bring strict control and unity to all Israel's seed. That the same Messiah would also be later "the Saviour of the World", was unknown, and its understanding did not materialise until after Acts 28:28 in its full meaning under the ministrations of the great Apostle Paul: See: [SIZE=14pt]Apostle Paul:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (Separate study) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Apostle Paul's accusers: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (Separate study)[/SIZE]
That birth of Jesus and His Messiahship, although at present rejected by Israel, fulfils the prophecy of Gen. 3:15, and the Gentile nations blessings both now and in the future through Abraham's seed; together with the eventual gathering of all Israel's seed from all over the world into The Promised Land, and Messiah's Rule from Jerusalem (Ezek. 11:16-20, 37:1-28)!
The Ezekiel comments are particularly revealing re. the complete unification of Israel's children (the Tribes and the Kin). That these events are of the beginning of the "Kingdom" period (the Millennial) is made clear by 37:26, as the "everlasting Covenant" is for the first time established, (Ezek. 34:25-26, Isa. 44:7, 55:3, 61:8, and many more). The detail and promise of the unification are shown in Ezek. 37:15-25; the "sticks" of vs.16-20 should be translated "scrolls", and would include names and peoples. The fact of assimilation of the many of Israel's sons into the world populations (called Gentiles and Nations in Scripture) is without doubt. Only Jehovah God knows who and where! In these verses is remarkable unification of all these peoples into those of Ezek. 37:26-28! These events are of course linked to those of Dan. 12:2-3 and Ezek. 37:1-14, and which is just prior. The whole of Ezek. 37 can be taken as sequential.
We have seen the confusion that mixing terms can have on the understanding of the Word of God. The context nearly always gives the meaning and application; and the example here on the name of "Israel" demonstrates that point. This is a very good example of the principle that Miles Coverdale expounded, and which is quoted in our opening page of: www.revelationsmessage.co.uk



Floyd.

 

[keras]

Floyd that 'cut and paste' dissertation is hard to figure whether you agree that the 10 lost tribes are still out there or have rejoined with Judah already. Anyway I have read Tudor Parfitts rather rambling book and totally disagree with his theories. That they have NOT re-joined is made clear by 1 Peter 1:1,James 1:1, Josephus, Rabbi Akiva and others since Christ, who said Himself 'I come to save the lost sheep of Israel' That He has done that is proved by the Christianizing of the Western nations, while Judah remain in their apostasy.
Read and understand Matthew 21:43 and Ezekiel 11:14-21 The Lord knows who His people are, Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 23:3-4

And back to the OP, they will be people who believe in Him and keep His commandments, all the rest face annihilation. Hebrews 10:26-27

 

[Floyd]

Floyd that 'cut and paste' dissertation is hard to figure whether you agree that the 10 lost tribes are still out there or have rejoined with Judah already. Anyway I have read Tudor Parfitts rather rambling book and totally disagree with his theories. That they have NOT re-joined is made clear by 1 Peter 1:1,James 1:1, Josephus, Rabbi Akiva and others since Christ, who said Himself 'I come to save the lost sheep of Israel' That He has done that is proved by the Christianizing of the Western nations, while Judah remain in their apostasy.
Read and understand Matthew 21:43 and Ezekiel 11:14-21 The Lord knows who His people are, Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 23:3-4

And back to the OP, they will be people who believe in Him and keep His commandments, all the rest face annihilation. Hebrews 10:26-27

"And back to the OP, they will be people who believe in Him and keep His commandments, all the rest face annihilation. Hebrews 10:26-27"



The only "paste" was from Wikipedia.
The rest is our work, and you presumably checked the refs?
Our opinion, which is clear from the text; is that Israel is Israel, not the church (or your definition) , and is the subject of all OT Promises of God; not some mythical construction from the human mind.
Their time is yet to be, after "Jacob's Trouble".
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

The "Twelve Tribes" in light of Rev. chapter 7 as follows: The symbolism of this divine nation, "Twelve Tribes" could not be taken from the Jewish nation in its later days, after the deportation of the 10 tribes or after the separation of the 10 from the two when two kingdoms were formed; but contextually and grammatically only from the twelve tribes as they once camped together on their desert journey, as they once received their inheritance in Canaan, as this one nation once was organized as one consisting of twelve parts or tribes. Even then they differed in the numbers if I recall that composed the tribes, and in the relation of these tribes. Levi of course held a special position. These numerical and other differences are here in Rev.7:5, etc. are here ignored of course. The symbolism of the divine,spiritual natin of God presents the picture of a perfect nation by means of twelve tribes, all consisting of 12,000, "out of each tribe" and thus totaling 144,000. Twelve is the number of God's people and of God's Word (the later as seen in the 24 elders - Rev.4:4), and 10X10X10 is the number of fullest completeness. The complete Church at the end of time and may we be a part of it with the remnant Jewish Christians.

Again Dan is omitted; Levi is listed as an ordinary tribe??? And nothing is noted about its conection with the old priesthood; Ephraim is replaced by Joseph??? A literal interpretation that refers this number to the Jews is unacceptable my brother Floyd!!! As a side note, in the table of names given in IChron.4, etc., Dan does not appear and in Deut.33, Simeon and Issachar are omitted. Always have agaped these areas.

Old Jack just talking out loud again

 

[Floyd]

Thank you folks for caring!

The "Twelve Tribes" in light of Rev. chapter 7 as follows: The symbolism of this divine nation, "Twelve Tribes" could not be taken from the Jewish nation in its later days, after the deportation of the 10 tribes or after the separation of the 10 from the two when two kingdoms were formed; but contextually and grammatically only from the twelve tribes as they once camped together on their desert journey, as they once received their inheritance in Canaan, as this one nation once was organized as one consisting of twelve parts or tribes. Even then they differed in the numbers if I recall that composed the tribes, and in the relation of these tribes. Levi of course held a special position. These numerical and other differences are here in Rev.7:5, etc. are here ignored of course. The symbolism of the divine,spiritual natin of God presents the picture of a perfect nation by means of twelve tribes, all consisting of 12,000, "out of each tribe" and thus totaling 144,000. Twelve is the number of God's people and of God's Word (the later as seen in the 24 elders - Rev.4:4), and 10X10X10 is the number of fullest completeness. The complete Church at the end of time and may we be a part of it with the remnant Jewish Christians.

Again Dan is omitted; Levi is listed as an ordinary tribe??? And nothing is noted about its conection with the old priesthood; Ephraim is replaced by Joseph??? A literal interpretation that refers this number to the Jews is unacceptable my brother Floyd!!! As a side note, in the table of names given in IChron.4, etc., Dan does not appear and in Deut.33, Simeon and Issachar are omitted. Always have agaped these areas.

Old Jack just talking out loud again

Unacceptable to you Jack; but right for most people from Scripture!
Dan is omitted because of sin in idolatry; Levi for lack od faithfulness; replaced by Zadok !
Floyd.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Floyd.

From old Jack:

Again the 10 tribes have disappeared. Not so the two tribes that constituted Judaism in Paul's time. They will endure until the last Gentile is brought into the Kingdom, and the Lord returns for the great judgment - the remnant of Jews that become Jewish Christians of course.


Re. the 12 Tribes:


The Ten Lost Tribes of Israelhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.htm


When the writers first heard of the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel", it had little impact or meaning. Since that time (1960s) the term has been mentioned infrequently, which only served to increase the perplexity, due to the appearance of the people who were making the comments.
One such meeting in Australia in the 1970s, was with a Mormon, who declared himself a Christian, but later understanding showed the origin of such comment as that of Joseph Smith of America and his "tablets" of "later Biblical revelation in America". The person who made the comments seemed of Nordic extract due to appearance and stature.
Another such encounter was with an English resident in Yorkshire, of Scottish extract with red hair, who was born in New Zealand, and claimed "lost tribe" entity, and practiced Jewish custom. He was a well-qualified medical doctor of considerable intellect.
Again recently a comment was made by a Conference delegate, that in his opinion, at the splitting of the Tribes of Israel after Solomon's death, the "Southern Kingdom" of Judah and Benjamin was not made Lo- Ammi at Acts 28:28, whereas the "Northern Kingdom" of the 10 Tribes was! This was justified because of Jesus' comments to His listeners stating that "He came only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt. 10:6,15:24,18:11). The questioner was implying that the term "Israel" applied to the 10 Tribes of the Northern Kingdom only, and not to Judah and Benjamin.
At the time of the split, (approx. 990-930 BC, dating varies) and for approx. 200 years afterwards, the Northern Kingdom was known as Israel (Samaria), and the Southern based on Jerusalem, as Judah (2 Chron. 15:9). In between the start and the finish, and prior to the Assyrian takeover of Samaria and their dispersion, the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon joined the Kingdom of Judah during the reign of Asa of Judah; so that the original 10 tribes of the north was reduced to 7! This fact alone reduces the credibility of the many "Lost Tribes" ideas.
There have been many investigations into the concept of the Lost Tribes; one notable investigator is Tudor Parfitt, who is recognised as possibly the world's leading expert on the subject, and who has produced many documentary presentations for academia and the media. A comment he has made is copied below from Wikipedia:

Tudor Parfitt[SIZE=14pt] has declared that "the Lost Tribes are indeed nothing but a myth", and writes that, "...this myth is a vital feature of colonial discourse throughout the long period of European overseas empires, from the beginning of the fifteenth century, until the later half of the twentieth.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][2][/SIZE]
The full Wikipedia article follows:
The ten lost tribes refers to the ten of the twelve [SIZE=14pt]tribes of ancient Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] that were deported from the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Kingdom of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] after it was conquered by [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Assyria[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in about 722 BCE.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Claims of descent from the lost tribes have been proposed in relation to many groups, and some religions espouse a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]millenarian[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] view that the tribes will return.[/SIZE]
Tudor Parfitt[SIZE=14pt] has declared that "the Lost Tribes are indeed nothing but a myth", and writes that, "...this myth is a vital feature of colonial discourse throughout the long period of European overseas empires, from the beginning of the fifteenth century, until the later half of the twentieth.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][2][/SIZE]
The motif of "the lost tribes" first appeared in the post-biblical era, and was subsequently elaborated upon in a number of apocryphal texts. The return of the lost tribes was eventually tied to the notion of the coming of the messiah in the 7th and 8th centuries CE. [SIZE=14pt][3][/SIZE]
The [SIZE=14pt]recorded history[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] is at variance with the legends elaborated in apocryphal texts. For example, no record exists of the Assyrians having exiled people from [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Dan[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Asher[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Issachar[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Zebulun[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] or western [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Manasseh[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]. Descriptions of the deportation of people from [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Reuben[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Gad[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Manasseh[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] in [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Gilead[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Ephraim[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Naphtali[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] indicate that only a portion of these tribes were deported and the places to which they were deported are known locations given in the accounts. The deported communities are mentioned as still existing at the time of the composition of the books of Kings and Chronicles, and not wholly assimilated into the Assyrian populace.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][4][/SIZE]
DNA studies have found no evidence of the existence of any lost tribes. DNA studies have refuted any connection between ethnic Jews and most all of the ethnic groups discussed below, with the exception of the Lemba, for whom a Y-chromosome connection has been confirmed, but no maternal DNA.

A surprising number of peoples claim decent from the Jews including the following:
Mormons, Nestorians, Afghans, Falashas of Ethiopia, American Indians, Japanese, Berbers, Igbo's of Nigeria, the Lemba of Yemen and Southern Africa; to name a few!
By the time of the "restoration of Israel", at the close of the 70 years prophesied in Jer. 25:11-12, and prayed for by Daniel; under Ezra and Nehemiah, the returning Jews from Babylon were made up of the 5 tribes shown above, and were collectively known as Israel. Ezra only managed to persuade approx. 40,000 out of approx. 500,000 Jews to return with him to Jerusalem from Babylon, and that is confirmed by the letters that Peter wrote, and see John 7:35, and James 1:1; many years later. However, Nehemiah, who held high office with King Cyrus the Great of Persia, was granted further mandate to reinforce Ezra's work, and did so with great force. This was necessary due to the resistance of the Samaritans and other of the local people surrounding Jerusalem. The Samaritans were part Kin to The Jews, and the result of "assimilation" in Assyria and environs when taken into captivity approx. 100 years earlier.
It is worth here reminding ourselves of the origin of the term "Israel". In Gen. 32:28, Jacob had "striven" with a "Man" (v24), v28 "And He said, thy name shall be called no more Jacob (meaning contender), but Israel (God commands, orders or rules): for as a prince (commander, orderer) hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed".
Israel had 12 sons, and for a long time the group were referred to as "the children of Israel", eventually shortened to "Israel". At the splitting of the Kingdom at Solomon's death the term "Israel" stayed with the 10 northern tribes, and the southern initially 2 tribes as mentioned earlier, were called Judah; the terms remained especially during the time of bitter feeling between the two groups. As also mentioned above at the restoration in Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, the old term for all the tribes returned, and remained there after.
With this clarity in mind, the comments of Jesus mentioned above mean that they applied/apply to all Israel, including part kin, as evidenced by the encounter of Jesus with the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well; and her affirmation of Jacob as her/their forebear (John 4:12)! In v14 Jesus confirms that the "living water" was from Him, and was "everlasting life"! Had anything she said been wrong, Jesus would have contested it, but instead invited her husband also! The remarkable revelation from Jesus then hints at what was to come later, (v23); and did so at Acts 28:28; which expanded the possibility to the whole world, that He was showing in vs. 23-24. That condition is still de-facto, for any person to take the gift of Christ Jesus into their heart!
Returning to the case of Israel; there are promises from Jehovah God to His people the Jews which must be fulfilled, as God always keeps His word! The Promises/Covenants, were initially between Abram and God, but were renewed and reinforced in the following generations of Abraham's line; and are crucial to the world in the future, as Israel are eventually destined to be a "Kingdom of Priests" unto God and the world (Ex. 19:6, Rev. 1:6).
The traumas that the Jews have experienced in their exiles from their land in Assyria and Babylon; and especially since AD70, are as a direct result of their constant rebellion and turning away from their Jehovah; with whom they were in Covenant relationship regarding their faithfulness and behaviour, which Covenant they constantly broke. The details of this agreement are in Deuteronomy, together with the consequences of their failure.
They have played out their special relationship with Jehovah at present; and in Acts 28:28, they were made Lo- Ammi, as per Hosea 1:9; and that as a direct consequence of their final rejection of Christ Jesus, see: The Kingdom Age: [SIZE=14pt](Separate study)[/SIZE]
Hosea 1:6 shows the detail of God's action, and the "ellipsis" supplies the unspoken, God takes away the Kingdom from them! (Israel here is the whole nation, whole and part of Israel's seed, and not just the northern kingdom).
Hosea 1:7 however gives the beautiful prophecy of their Messiah; as Judah was to be the source of the birth of Jesus the Christ (Gen. 49:10). It has to be remembered that the promise of Messiah was to the Tribes of Israel only, and Who was also to be the ultimate "lawgiver", Who would bring strict control and unity to all Israel's seed. That the same Messiah would also be later "the Saviour of the World", was unknown, and its understanding did not materialise until after Acts 28:28 in its full meaning under the ministrations of the great Apostle Paul: See: [SIZE=14pt]Apostle Paul:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (Separate study) (Separate study)[/SIZE]http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Apostle Paul
The Ezekiel comments are particularly revealing re. the complete unification of Israel's children (the Tribes and the Kin). That these events are of the beginning of the "Kingdom" period (the Millennial) is made clear by 37:26, as the "everlasting Covenant" is for the first time established, (Ezek. 34:25-26, Isa. 44:7, 55:3, 61:8, and many more). The detail and promise of the unification are shown in Ezek. 37:15-25; the "sticks" of vs.16-20 should be translated "scrolls", and would include names and peoples. The fact of assimilation of the many of Israel's sons into the world populations (called Gentiles and Nations in Scripture) is without doubt. Only Jehovah God knows who and where! In these verses is remarkable unification of all these peoples into those of Ezek. 37:26-28! These events are of course linked to those of Dan. 12:2-3 and Ezek. 37:1-14, and which is just prior. The whole of Ezek. 37 can be taken as sequential.http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Apostle Paulhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Apostle Paul

Sorry, bro', but I'm going to call your bluff:

First, "Israel" does NOT refer to the "whole nation, whole and part of Israel's seed, and not just the northern kingdom" in Hosea 1:6 ff. The word is contrasted with "Judah" several times in the book, and Hoshea` wrote "during the reigns of ‘Uziyah, Yotam, Achaz and Y’chizkiyah, kings of Y’hudah, and during the reign of Yarov‘am the son of Yo’ash, king of Isra’el." (CJB)

Second, the word "stick" is a translation of the Hebrew word "`eets" and it means a "tree" or the "wood" from a tree. It does NOT mean a "scroll!" The Hebrew word "mgillaah" means "a scroll." Indeed, the word "`eets" is the root word in the word "`aatsaV," which means to "carve (wood)." It is what it is; don't go trying to put words in God's mouth!

Third, Ezekiel 37:1-14 is talking about the Resurrection of Isra'el:

Ezekiel 37:1-14
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'" 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet — a vast army.
11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. THEN you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'"
NIV

This is NOT just flowery, figurative speech! It's a REALITY! We can see this concept in other places of Scripture, as well:

Zechariah 12:7-14
7 ADONAI will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, ADONAI will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of ADONAI before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB

Why is this important? Because these names are seen again in the Brit Chadashah (the NT):

Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB

Thus, these names are not horizontally related in Isra'el's family tree; they are VERTICALLY RELATED! In order for them to lament together for the one who was pierced as an only son or as a firstborn son, they must first be RESURRECTED!

And, Paul, too, makes note of this resurrection of the children of Isra'el:

Romans 11:11-29
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
NIV

I don't know why it makes me so unpopular for saying this, but I'll say it again anyway: God is going to take away their sins AFTER their resurrection!

 

[Floyd]

I don't know why it makes me so unpopular for saying this, but I'll say it again anyway: God is going to take away their sins AFTER their resurrection!http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/


I don't disagree with that Retro!
Floyd.

 

[StanJ]

Shabbat shalom, StanJ.

How do you know it's not Levi that is in its place?

Look at the link I posted. Levi was removed based on the implementation of the Mosaic and Levitical Laws, but in Rev 7 they are no longer the priesthood and are restored to their original status as on of the 12 tribes.

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/14725/why-was-dan-removed-from-the-list-of-12-israel-tribes-in-rev-7

BTW, why do you use this greeting with everyone? Shalom is the proper one as I am not Judaic and it Is not my Sabbath.

 

[keras]

You made an interesting point, Retrobyter, the final redemption of the Israelites, [all 12 tribes] only happens AFTER they re-gather into all of the holy Land. From Ezekiel 39:21-28 we see that it isn't until Gog and his horde are destroyed, that God 'displays His glory' and then He 'will no longer hide His face from His people and will pour out His Spirit upon them'.

BTW StanJ, the Jewish greeting of Shabbat Shalom won't be used in Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] because 'Judah will be so ashamed and humiliated they will never open their mouth again'. Ezekiel 16:63

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Keras (and everybody) ... think this over and let me know if you feel it is possible

Up until recently I had always been of the opinion that the 144,000 were selected from the world population during the end times

But now I am considering maybe they are from history past ... people who God selected at times when the actual 12 tribes were around ... and maybe God ..... "brings them all back" .... most likely in human form .... and protected from tribulation wrath.

I know I am splitting hairs .... but from what I can tell from scripture is we are told when they are sealed ..... but not when they were selected .... nor does it explicitly say they are living humans currently on earth (at end times)

At least it appears that way to me .... unless I missed something.

I also find it interesting where it says ... They were purchased from among mankind ... Revelation 14:4

 

[StanJ]

BTW StanJ, the Jewish greeting of Shabbat Shalom won't be used in Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] because 'Judah will be so ashamed and humiliated they will never open their mouth again'. Ezekiel 16:63

May be so, but my point was it doesn't apply to anyone who isn't Jewish and who isn't under the OT covenant.
Shalom is fine.

 

[Floyd]

Keras (and everybody) ... think this over and let me know if you feel it is possible

Up until recently I had always been of the opinion that the 144,000 were selected from the world population during the end times

But now I am considering maybe they are from history past ... people who God selected at times when the actual 12 tribes were around ... and maybe God ..... "brings them all back" .... most likely in human form .... and protected from tribulation wrath.

I know I am splitting hairs .... but from what I can tell from scripture is we are told when they are sealed ..... but not when they were selected .... nor does it explicitly say they are living humans currently on earth (at end times)

At least it appears that way to me .... unless I missed something.

I also find it interesting where it says ... They were purchased from among mankind ... Revelation 14:4


Arnie; with respect, your original stance is correct IMO.
Regarding Rev.14:4; it states (NKJV); " these were redeemed from among men by Jesus".

This a massively misunderstood passage IMO, the 1444,000 have to be "ceremonially clean " for their function.

See: Rev.7:4. (www.revelationsmessage.co.uk)

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]And I heard the number of the (a)sealed: and there were sealed[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]children of Israel.[/SIZE]

(a) See the principle in Ezek. 9:3-4, there also a devoted remnant!
(b) "Children;" the Greek word is "Huios," which is a son or male (Str. 5207 and Comp. Appendix 108:3.) Therefore all the "sealed" are males, and are sealed for a purpose. 12,000 from each Jewish tribe. As most Jews do not know their tribe of origin, this is a demonstration of God's knowledge of all detail pertaining to His creation, as shown in Rev. 20:12-13, where His knowledge of all that a person (and all people) have done in their lives on earth, is used for the Judgement process and decision!

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Judah[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Reuben[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Gad[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]Aser [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Nepthalim[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Manasses [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of[/SIZE] [SIZE=13.5pt]Simeon[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] 12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Levi [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Issachar [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]V.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Zabulon[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] 12,000. Of the tribe of [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]Joseph [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000. Of the tribe of[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] Benjamin [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]12,000.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=13.5pt]Rev.14:4.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]V.4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]These are they which were (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]not defiled with women, for they are virgins. [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] These are they which[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] follow the Lamb[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men to be (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the firstfruits[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] to God and to the Lamb.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Not defiled with women;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]this verse has been misquoted, misused, and deliberately targeted against women throughout the last 2000 years by perverse and corrupt men. It is true that in the timing of these events, it will certainly be the case on earth that sexual immorality, perversion and idolatry will all be mixed together, as an essential part of the then system of “normal society,” and will in high probability be sanctioned by Religion, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]as was the[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]case 2000 years ago in Greece and elsewhere![/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Charles Welch makes the point well in his book “This Prophecy,” as Satan attempts to use the same method he used successfully in Eden (See [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Eve and Adam[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] !”) It is easy to see now (2014) that the trend is already well established on the earth. What perverse men conveniently omit, is that they themselves are part of the system, and without them the corruption would not exist! (See notes on 14:1(a).)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]What Satan cannot do, is create, although he is still trying to find the key, via all means available to him (see [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Satan's Motivation: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]) However; as per Eden, Satan here is attempting again to control and pervert “pro-creation!” As these 144,000 Jews are “first fruits” of the new “Bride;” and the nucleus of the Millennial Nation of Ezekiel [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and will not be perverted, as per Eve; [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Christ Jesus is the first fruit of His Body (1Cor. 15:23), THE Bridegroom,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] not perverted as per Adam![/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]It is factual however that the 144,000 will not partake of the above corruption, and they will be ceremonially clean to the requirements of Ex. 28, Lev. 15 and 24, 1Sam. 21:4. They will not therefore be in the category of their forbears, who were in a state of sin and disobedience by their mixing with the women of Canaan, who were certainly of Nephilim stock, and who worshipped their pagan idols with sexual acts. Their forbears suffered the fate of the idolater and died in their sin and disobedience to Jehovah, and they will face Jehovah’s judgement, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]the consequence was the eventual “Lo-Ammi” condition[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]in A.D. 69-70[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] These forefathers should have been the wife of Jehovah (Jer. 3,) but dealt treacherously with their God (Jer. 3:20.) The 144,000 are almost certainly the nucleus of the “Bride” of the Lamb and are “virgins” in the sense of not having partaken of the Satan controlled actions, as described above. When the Bride is complete (Jeshurun) (Isa. 61:10,) eventually Israel will call Jehovah “Ishi” (my husband,) (Hos. 2:16.) The original Greek for the translation virgins” (Str. 3933) renders: “a maiden,” “an unmarried daughter,” which complies with the Bride waiting! Most people object that the “Bride” is the Church![/SIZE] However, Scripture says that [SIZE=12pt]the Church is the Body of[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Christ, of which He is the Head (Eph. 1:22-23.)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The eventual union of Christ and His Bride, are shown in Rev. 21:9-14, where V.14 implicates the Gospels figuratively, and the walls of the city has "12 foundations," named as the 12 Apostles of the Lamb! This shows therefore that the "Body" and the "Bride" are eventually one with Christ![/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt] (b) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]See Lev. 23:10, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]which confirms them as the firstfruits, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]in the filling full (fulfilling) of God's promise to Abraham regarding their "promised land," with its promised borders.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

 

[keras]

Arnie M, I don't agree with your hypothesis that the 144,000 may be from past ages. I think Floyd has it right, they are 'clean' by virtue of living within the Law. Anyway there may well be that many true virgin young men and women, not all go along with todays loose morals.
Who selects them and where, is quite clear in Rev. 14:1-2 There on Mt Zion stood the Lamb, [Jesus] and with Him were the 144,000... I heard a great sound FROM HEAVEN.... It happens on earth, they hear the sound from heaven.
Of course all this happens soon after the Sixth Seal terrible devastation of the entire Middle east and the destruction of the modern worlds infrastructure. But years BEFORE the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. We are told Jesus will be revealed to His own, as we see on Mt Zion, not to all the world yet. Isaiah 24:21, 2 Thess 1:10, Jer 30:21

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I have always felt the 144,000 were selected from living humans just before the tribulation wrath ... but because nobody today can precisely identify populations containing members from the original 12 tribes .... I was looking for loopholes

Thus I was looking at other possibilities because we are not told when exactly they were selected (redeemed as firstfruits) Revelation 14:4

Anyway , I remain thinking they are selected and sealed just before the wrath , and come from somewhere in the world's population at that time.

Several years ago I really put a lot of thought into the question of the 144,000 and pretty much came up with these two possibilities :

1. The 144,000 come from within the Christian church , these are people who have actual genealogy and lineage to the 12 tribes , but they themselves do not realize it (but God knows) ... they probably came out of the early church consisting of Israelite's who were believers and then assimilated into the rest of the population

On a side note I find it intriguing that through the past 1900 years , many christian families have carried on the practice of circumcision .... which is purely Israeli in origin .... where did that come from ? ... I suspect it is a carryover from Israel origins,

2. I also consider the possibility that the 144,000 come from our modern day Jewish population , I have read many Jewish articles that say their population consists of all the 12 tribes ... not just the tribe of Judah ... but again , they themselves may not know it , but God may have reserved a remnant of all 12.

trivia: I do not find it difficult to comprehend they are all male virgins ... Revelation 14:4

But I consider it quite intriguing that they have never lied ... Revelation 14:5

Rather uncommon in this world.