The violent history of.......

[FHII]

I support you in that, BA, and agree. I am concerned that there were sincere yet Ignorant Christians that were coerced into fighting. Men whom if they knew what the apostles and Jesus really taught wouldn't have entangled themselves with the crusades and would have objected to the inquisition. May God judge them righteously.

 

[Wormwood]

Are you kidding me? European colonialism? Manifest Destiny? Treatment of Jews (ever read Martin Luther's books on that)? I mean....it would take years to catalog the history of violence committed by Christians over the course of history.

That was the point of the OP.

I don't know that European colonialism and the Manifest Destiny are directly related to Christian theology. There were a lot of politics and greed involved in such decisions that were not directly related to any particular church or denomination. That is a different ballgame than Islamic Jihad that kills as a direct result of their obedience to their Scriptures. Their motives are solely religious. Even if what you are claiming was true and these acts were due to people specifically acting upon what they thought were Biblical teachings....which they weren't.....Christians are having their heads chopped off for their faith as we speak. And you respond with, "We are just as bad as they are, the president had much better Christian atrocities to point toward.." Shameful.

Since the invasion of Iraq, it's become patently obvious that the Bush administration deliberately manufactured their public argument for invading.

First, clearly the Bush administration was wrong. Although they could have just been in error about the WMD's and not some grand conspiracy to start a war. Im sure they could have come up with a better reason to kill Saddam than WMD's if they knew none existed. In any event, Its all speculation. Though Bush deserves the blame for being in error, it is possible that he was just mistaken and truly believed they were on the verge of a nuclear bomb. Second, its one of the most horrible and ignorant statements I have ever seen from anyone on this board make to say that the American invasion of Iraq was no different than the Nazi's except that the Bush administration lied about their reasons for war. You should be ashamed of yourself. I have lost tremendous respect for you in that statement.

1. Saddam was a brutal and cruel dictator.
2. Saddam was continually rejecting UN demands to inspect their facilities.
3. Saddam was guilty of using chemical warfare on innocent populations.

To say it was no different (and to imply that Bush was perhaps more wicked in his invasion) than the Nazi's is absolutely irresponsible. The Nazi's invaded and sought to take lands from surrounding countries in an attempt to take over the world. They brutally and systematically wiped out millions of innocent Jewish people. They were responsible for the bloodiest and most gruesome World War in human history. And they regularly lied to neighbors (like England, Poland and Russia) about peace and proceeded to attack them when their guard was down. I will not talk to you any more on this subject because it is clearly a waste of time. Your only objective here is to be inflammatory and, once again, paint Christians out to be wicked and foolish. I have never seen you say one encouraging word to anyone on this site, but you are continually work to dismantle peoples faith and ruin their confidence in the Scriptures and the Church.

 

[KingJ]

Yes, the unrefined chemical gas had already killed many. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack

Intention + gas + small missiles that can easily be hidden = WMD

 

[River Jordan]

I don't know that European colonialism and the Manifest Destiny are directly related to Christian theology. There were a lot of politics and greed involved in such decisions that were not directly related to any particular church or denomination. That is a different ballgame than Islamic Jihad that kills as a direct result of their obedience to their Scriptures. Their motives are solely religious. Even if what you are claiming was true and these acts were due to people specifically acting upon what they thought were Biblical teachings....which they weren't.....Christians are having their heads chopped off for their faith as we speak. And you respond with, "We are just as bad as they are, the president had much better Christian atrocities to point toward.." Shameful.

Again, the point is we Christians should be cautious in judging other faiths by the actions of their most extreme elements, lest we be judged by the same standards. And appealing to the No True Scotsman fallacy isn't doing us any good.

First, clearly the Bush administration was wrong. Although they could have just been in error about the WMD's and not some grand conspiracy to start a war. Im sure they could have come up with a better reason to kill Saddam than WMD's if they knew none existed. In any event, Its all speculation. Though Bush deserves the blame for being in error, it is possible that he was just mistaken and truly believed they were on the verge of a nuclear bomb. Second, its one of the most horrible and ignorant statements I have ever seen from anyone on this board make to say that the American invasion of Iraq was no different than the Nazi's except that the Bush administration lied about their reasons for war. You should be ashamed of yourself. I have lost tremendous respect for you in that statement.

1. Saddam was a brutal and cruel dictator.
2. Saddam was continually rejecting UN demands to inspect their facilities.
3. Saddam was guilty of using chemical warfare on innocent populations.

To say it was no different (and to imply that Bush was perhaps more wicked in his invasion) than the Nazi's is absolutely irresponsible. The Nazi's invaded and sought to take lands from surrounding countries in an attempt to take over the world. They brutally and systematically wiped out millions of innocent Jewish people. They were responsible for the bloodiest and most gruesome World War in human history. And they regularly lied to neighbors (like England, Poland and Russia) about peace and proceeded to attack them when their guard was down. I will not talk to you any more on this subject because it is clearly a waste of time. Your only objective here is to be inflammatory and, once again, paint Christians out to be wicked and foolish. I have never seen you say one encouraging word to anyone on this site, but you are continually work to dismantle peoples faith and ruin their confidence in the Scriptures and the Church.

First, I never said Bush or anyone else was worse than the Nazis. I just made a snarky comment about the Bush administration lying about the reasons for invading Iraq. I suppose you can chalk it up to a mere mistake if you like, but even under that explanation it was a colossal mistake that cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. I mean, we were told that it was a slam-dunk case that Saddam was building a nuclear bomb (he wasn't), had stockpiles of WMD's (he didn't), had mobile bio-weapons labs (he didn't), was in cahoots with Al Qaeda (he wasn't), and had met with the 9/11 perpetrators (he hadn't).

Now put yourself in the place of a mother whose innocent husband and child were killed in the US invasion. Are you going to accept "Gee, we're sorry but we made a mistake"?

Not only that, but there's a pretty clear paper trail showing that the Bush administration didn't just make a "mistake". At the very least they deliberately exaggerated and oversold their case for war to the American public. There's even handwritten notes from the evening of 9/11 where D. Rumsfeld was trying to find a way to use the attack as a reason to invade Iraq. Maybe you can wave that away as just a coincidence, but I can't.

 

[KingJ]

Again, the point is we Christians should be cautious in judging other faiths by the actions of their most extreme elements, lest we be judged by the same standards. And appealing to the No True Scotsman fallacy isn't doing us any good.

You are ironically mocking Islam with your statement. Those ''extreme'' elements are good Muslims. Muhammad ordained in his great wisdom that it is good to cut off fingertips and heads of infidels. To rape woman in the village pillaged. But you know this. You were educated in the prior thread. We should rather discuss what the Quran actually teaches...

I beg you and Heretoeternity to debunk these statements below and on this link as statements of love completely misunderstood. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm, until then all your posts are just blah blah blah, sob sob sob.

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Quran (4:95)- "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

 

[River Jordan]

I'm not here to defend Islam, but rather speak out against the concept of judging faiths by the actions of their most extreme elements.

Muhammad ordained in his great wisdom that it is good to cut off fingertips and heads of infidels. To rape woman in the village pillaged. But you know this.

And you know that the Bible says to take smart mouthed kids and throw stones at them until they are dead. Again, try and think about this from a different perspective.

 

[KingJ]

I'm not here to defend Islam, but rather speak out against the concept of judging faiths by the actions of their most extreme elements.

And you know that the Bible says to take smart mouthed kids and throw stones at them until they are dead. Again, try and think about this from a different perspective.

You really do not know your bible do you. Did you know that there is an OT and a NT? Did you know that Christians follow Christ. Did you know that Muslims follow......Muhammad.....the guy that told them all these peaceful ways to deal with infidels. Did you know that you are an infidel?

There is only one perspective. Islam = madness. Christianity OT and NT = sanity. Of course OT requires some applied grey matter. But can be defended. The same cannot be said of Muhammad. So until you actually do try to defend him...since YoU aRe CoMpArInG Christianity to Islam....how are your posts not a joke?

I felt embarrassed for you on your slavery thread where you attempted to mock the OT. I would rather you studied YOUR bible properly and corrected yourself this time around. It seems to be a habit with you to start threads off thoughts that sound right without having a clue about what the bible actually teaches. Now you are doing the same thing with the Quran...

 

[River Jordan]

You really do not know your bible do you. Did you know that there is an OT and a NT? Did you know that Christians follow Christ.

*sigh*

Again the point goes right over your head. Just as you can find singular terrible passages in the Quran, non-Christians can find singular terrible passages in the Bible. Just as we then have to go into apologetics and explain why the OT laws don't apply to us, Muslims also go into apologetics and explain the passages in their book.

IOW, you want to deny Muslims the courtesy of apologetics even while you demand it for yourself.

 

[KingJ]

*sigh*

Again the point goes right over your head. Just as you can find singular terrible passages in the Quran, non-Christians can find singular terrible passages in the Bible. Just as we then have to go into apologetics and explain why the OT laws don't apply to us, Muslims also go into apologetics and explain the passages in their book.

IOW, you want to deny Muslims the courtesy of apologetics even while you demand it for yourself.

The point flies over my head.....


''Just as I can find singular terrible passages''' of MUHAMMAD...the GUY that THEY FOLLOW....PLEASE tell me you GOT that.....????

Anyone picking an OT verse will be advised by ANY Christian they it was a shadow and followed to the letter by the Jews. 'Please try again and pick Jesus's instructions...UNLESS you have TIME for a proper discussion on the OT'.

We do not have to hide from the OT. What cracks me up is that you are imagining a brain dead person picking scriptures / surats. I guess we would need to gauge the IQ level of the person asking the question / making the accusation. As you have IQ > 30 though, what is your excuse?

I GIVE the Muslims the SAME courtesy. Which is why when I ask you to defend Muhammad...it is a TRAP h34r: h34r:.

Go for it...defend Muhammad with Muhammad's statements. PLEASE...or just stop posting about something you have NO clue on!

 

[River Jordan]

Once again....right over your head. Thanks again for the fun KingJ.

 

[pom2014]

I'll just say it.

Muslims that kill innocents are not muslims.
Jews that kill innocents are not Jews.
Christians that kill innocents are not Christians.

Let's be honest and get it over with.

The wicked use anything to justify their wickedness. Even faith.

 

[KingJ]

Once again....right over your head. Thanks again for the fun KingJ.

Well I guess expecting you to reply with an honest ''I see no differences between Jesus and Muhammad other then spelling, I have no clue about Islam, I can't even read the ayats you gave as English is not my first language, my ONLY comeback is to blast the OT....I know you corrected me from a dizzy height last time I selectively cited scripture on slavery...but I am choosing to forget that so as to not appear as though I wasted my time typing the OP, I am bored and have nothing better to do then blast Christianity like Obama's unsaved speech writers''.... was a longshot.

I'll just say it.

Muslims that kill innocents are not muslims.
Jews that kill innocents are not Jews.
Christians that kill innocents are not Christians.

Let's be honest and get it over with.

The wicked use anything to justify their wickedness. Even faith.

I really wish that was the case and I really wish that people on this site would stop making assumptions / sharing their opinion.

Infidels are not innocents in Islam. If you want to defend Islam, then do it properly. Prove to me that these verses below are out of context, please. You think I want to intensely dislike Islam?

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

IOW, you want to deny Muslims the courtesy of apologetics even while you demand it for yourself.

What makes you say that? Don't stress yourself out. Christianity is all for fairness and giving others a chance to explain their beliefs.

The problem is....and I think this is now the tenth time it is repeated to you...there is NO light at the end of the tunnel for infidels in Islam. Give them all the time they need to explain Muhammad's teachings, it will be the same today as it will be in a hundred years time.

The best Islam offers us is...

In Islam, all non-Muslims are called unbelievers or infidels. The treatment of the infidels in Islam is divided into two categories. The polytheists, pagans, idolaters and heathens have the choice of converting to Islam or suffer death. The Jews and Christians, whom the Koran calls people of the book, can retain their religion but on the sufferance of accepting humiliation and subjugation to Islam and payment of Jizyah (poll-tax) to the Islamic rulers http://infidelsarecool.com/2006/12/overwhelming-evidence-of-i/.

Now I really think you need to explain to all the Christians here how you group Islam and Christianity in the same sentence. Christianity teaches us to love and pray for our enemy. It teaches that we are here to help and lead our enemy to heaven with patience, mercy, love and longsuffering. Or else we need to leave this earth 1 Cor 5:10. Meaning the ONLY reason we here is to bring the unsaved to Jesus. We are as lambs among wolves. Does that sink in? IT is a POLAR OPPOSITE to Islam.

The fact that you started this thread as a person who is supposed to be a Christian is truly mind boggling. That is the only thing that is flying over my head.

 

[River Jordan]

The fact that you rely on "infidelsarecool.com" for information on Muslim apologetics tells me all I need to know. I don't know what happened to you to make you such an angry, hateful person, but it's sad to see.

 

[KingJ]

You remind me of those silly games at arcades where you have to hit the silly head that pops up in different places. I could quote the entire Quran for you word for word and show you the issues with Muaghmed and you will still choose to be ignorant, obstinate, arrogant, anti Christian and rude.

It amazes me how you think that line enables you to jump ship unscathed. Did you miss all the quotes from the Quran?

 

[River Jordan]

For whatever reason, you just can't get past your misconception that I'm apologizing for Islam. No matter how many times I try and explain to you that I'm not, your brain just keeps going back to it.

Oh well.... <_<

 

[heretoeternity]

KingJ..compare the Jewish talmud to the Koran and tell us which is the most violent and most sickening please..you might as well study both and learn the whole story..the talmud considers all gentiles to be in the catgory of animals....and to be treated as such...it gets worse, but read it for yourself.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Jesus did not teach any disciple to kill for Him. Proof of that is below.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Seeing how the saints during the great tribulation are not to wage war in spite of the eternal damnation awaiting the enemies for taking the mark of the beast, then truly patience need to be applied here in these troubling times, if not more so because the enemy may yet still be saved.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[heretoeternity]

Why did Jesus call the religious leaders of His day a "brood of vipers"? Was it because of their talmudic followings, and hate for gentiles?

 

[KingJ]

For whatever reason, you just can't get past your misconception that I'm apologizing for Islam. No matter how many times I try and explain to you that I'm not, your brain just keeps going back to it.

Oh well.... <_<

You are comparing apples to lemons. If you want a lemon to compete with an apple, you need to..... ;)

KingJ..compare the Jewish talmud to the Koran and tell us which is the most violent and most sickening please..you might as well study both and learn the whole story..the talmud considers all gentiles to be in the catgory of animals....and to be treated as such...it gets worse, but read it for yourself.

What I read was very disturbing. But I am not in a position to comment properly. I do not know it as well as the Koran. But I will be studying it more for interests sake.

 

[pom2014]

Just as any text can be quoted out of context, so too can any propaganda be justified by the speaker.