The "watch rapture view"

[Marilyn C]

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

Hi Douggg,

Jesus was speaking to the people of Israel who were in spiritual darkness. However, Jesus, the Head of His body tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should overtake us as a thief. (1 Thess. 5 : 4)

We are also told that when we are gathered together that God will test the world as to whom they will serve.(Rev. 3: 10 Rev. 14: 9 & 10) We have chosen already and are under the blood of Jesus, and thus will go into the Holy of Holies.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus was speaking to the people of Israel who were in spiritual darkness. However, Jesus, the Head of His body tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should overtake us as a thief. (1 Thess. 5 : 4)

Hi Marilyn,

We are not in darkness, knowing that we are living in the end times, I agree. So close to events to start cascading.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please use scripture to disprove what I am saying. I have used scripture to disprove what you are saying.

Again....plain dumb .
We HAVE both presented verses.
It would be ridiculous for either of us to say ; "please use scripture.:

I have googled "wrath part of the the trib is only one year" ( or whatever you ascribe to its length)

And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on it ANYWHERE.

BY you standing alone on the planet with a exclusive connection to heaven, you must be careful not to get too enamored with it.

You are skewing the entire point .
The 7 years of Daniel is JACOBS TROUBLE.
ISRAELS TROUBLE.
7 YEAR PERIOD.
The rapture, and the arrival Of the Antichrist, proves the church has absolutely nothing to do with that seven year period.

Rev 6 ( the seals) is an OVERVIEW of that 7 year period.
...beginning with the AC and ending in the wrath and second coming.

The church is nowhere in the seals opened by Jesus.
Because of 1 thes 4 being true.

There is a reason the seals begin with the AC, and end in the second coming.

Ahem....Rev is NOT in chronological order.... IN PLACES.
in OTHER PLACES it is.

You have not confirmed your model with any believers....and seem to dodge any reference to that shortcoming.

By asserting I have no verses and parrot some teachers, I am afraid you can not honestly debate since you are using postribber dodge tactics try to make some ridiculous assertions about me as your foundation.

Never mind any flaw in my study, or some need you have to minimize me personally.
....unless you need those postribber methods

 

[David in NJ]

Hi Douggg,

Jesus was speaking to the people of Israel who were in spiritual darkness. However, Jesus, the Head of His body tells us that we are not in darkness that this day should overtake us as a thief. (1 Thess. 5 : 4)

We are also told that when we are gathered together that God will test the world as to whom they will serve.(Rev. 3: 10 Rev. 14: 9 & 10) We have chosen already and are under the blood of Jesus, and thus will go into the Holy of Holies.

@rebuilder 454 @The Light


JESUS warned us of the deception of the man-made religious doctrine of 'pre-trib rapture' in Matt ch24

The MoB is here and will soon be "revealed" and become Law = 2 Thess ch2 , Rev chapters 12 -13

When the MoB takes place (or just before) you will be hearing of supposed 'raptures' that have taken place = Matt 24:23 , Luke 17:23

Unless you turn your hearts to BELIEVE the LORD JESUS CHRIST at His Words, you will be left under the deception of 'pre-trib' rapture!!!

 

[amigo de christo]

The world establishement filled with s piritual wickedness in high places
c ontrols both sides .
One side throws the pop corn on the ground and the other side then offers up the solution on how to clean up popcorn ..
The solution came OF THE VERY ONE and self same governing entity that sits high over the world .
Verily verily all not in the lambs book of life will buy this solution .
The very solution to the wrecked world they had wrecked themselves for to prepare the world unto the solution .
It is as a man that stands and before the children he holds up
his right hand and says come ye all into this place and flood it up for we are love
and then when the hand is full and the problem flooded
It stands and with its left hand says , COME YE , this is the solution , the means on how to fix
the flooding problem .
WE ALLL BEING DECIEVED by both sides . IT is one body of darkness that simply operates
with both hands . And it knows how to sell a lie . and offer up a lie for a solution .

 

[rebuilder 454]

@rebuilder 454 @The Light


JESUS warned us of the deception of the man-made religious doctrine of 'pre-trib rapture' in Matt ch24

The MoB is here and will soon be "revealed" and become Law = 2 Thess ch2 , Rev chapters 12 -13

When the MoB takes place (or just before) you will be hearing of supposed 'raptures' that have taken place = Matt 24:23 , Luke 17:23

Unless you turn your hearts to BELIEVE the LORD JESUS CHRIST at His Words, you will be left under the deception of 'pre-trib' rapture!!!

Go look in a mirror.
Point your lying finger forward, but stand far enough back so that beam in your eye does not break the mirror, and get real.

Blue ribbon hypocrisy award.

Plain stupid, thinking only postribbers are saved

I can ,quite handily, prove the pretrib rapture



You have never proved your lame doctrine, or ever PRODUCED A POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSE.
SMH at such ridiculousness.

 

[David in NJ]

Go look in a mirror.
Point your lying finger forward, but stand far enough back so that beam in your eye does not break the mirror, and get real.

Blue ribbon hypocrisy award.

Plain stupid, thinking only postribbers are saved

I can ,quite handily, prove the pretrib rapture



You have never proved your lame doctrine, or ever PRODUCED A POSTRIB RAPTURE VERSE.
SMH at such ridiculousness.

Your response is from the spirit of antichrist

Which is understandable since the lie of 'pre-trib' rapture is from the spirit of antichrist.

However your heart/attitude against the WORD is NOT acceptable before GOD.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Every person who speaks "pre-trib" rapture PROVES they choose the fear of man over the Fear of GOD

 

[The Light]

I have googled "wrath part of the the trib is only one year" ( or whatever you ascribe to its length)

And ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on it ANYWHERE.

Why do you say the wrath part of the tribulation? Tribulation is over at the 6th seal as PROVEN by scripture with the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Wrath is the 7th seal.

The wrath of God lasts one year (before Armageddon can occur).

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 51
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

When the great multitude is in heaven after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, that great multitude goes to the marriage supper of the lamb. The great multitude, who is the bride of Christ, remains in heaven for one year as God says a newly married man will not go to war for ONE YEAR.

Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

BY you standing alone on the planet with a exclusive connection to heaven, you must be careful not to get too enamored with it.

I'm just going by the Word of God. I don't see how anyone can argue with the Word of God. I take it exactly without doctrinal compromise. The Word of God is my doctrine. The Bible is very clear. Immediately after tribulation of those days, which is the great tribulation, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall heaven. Additionally, when the 6th seal is opened, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall heaven. From these scriptures, it's easy enough to conclude that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I am not sure why you want to argue with these FACTS. This is the starting point to understanding Revelation and end times. We have a timestamp. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

At the 6th seal Jesus returns and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and mostly Jews, dead and alive, will be gathered from the earth. This is the second coming..........not the second advent, the second coming. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. The great multitude remain with the Lord in heaven as the ONE YEAR day of wrath or day of vengeance occurs. Then the armies of heaven return with the Lord on white horses for the Day of the Lord which is destruction from the Almighty.

 

[The Light]

You are skewing the entire point .
The 7 years of Daniel is JACOBS TROUBLE.
ISRAELS TROUBLE.
7 YEAR PERIOD.
The rapture, and the arrival Of the Antichrist, proves the church has absolutely nothing to do with that seven year period.

The final week begins with a 7-year covenant being made with many.

That does not mean that the Church is not here when that covenant is made. As to what the scripture says, Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood and the Church will not be in heaven before the final 7 year period begins. Secondly, the Antichrist will not receive His crown until after the Church is in heaven. Once the Church is in heaven the seals can be opened.

As for the 7 years being the time of Jacobs trouble, one of the years of the 7 year period is the ONE YEAR wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, will be raptured at the 6th seal and then the one year of God begins. I think there is also more time after this for atonement, judgement, Temple mount cleansing etc.

As for the woman, Israel, she will be in a place of protection through the great tribulation and will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

Rev 6 ( the seals) is an OVERVIEW of that 7 year period.
...beginning with the AC and ending in the wrath and second coming.

Rev 6 only contains 6 seals and not the one year 7th seal.

The church is nowhere in the seals opened by Jesus.
Because of 1 thes 4 being true.

Correct. However, the Church will not be in heaven when the 7 year period begins as Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

There is a reason the seals begin with the AC, and end in the second coming.

The 1st seal is the 7th king who is the beast of the earth. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Then 7th seal one year of wrath and then the second advent as Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives

Ahem....Rev is NOT in chronological order.... IN PLACES.
in OTHER PLACES it is.

The 7 seals are in order. The 7th seal is the wrath of God which contains the 7 trumpets of wrath. It's all over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over and Jesus has returned to earth. And then the judgement. That covers Revelation 6-11. You could stop right there. It's all done. You don't need Revelation 13-16 to know the story.

If you want another view of seals 1 thru 6 with different information that can be seen in Rev 13 and 14. Rev15 is another view of the time period of Revelation 7 and the first part of Rev 8.

If you want another view of the 7th seal wrath of God with different information, that would be Revelation 16.

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. He only loads them once and there is only one flood. In Revelation we get two views of seals 1-6 and two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.

You have not confirmed your model with any believers....and seem to dodge any reference to that shortcoming.

Why would I need to dodge?

What percentage of Christians believe in Post Trib? Let's just pull a number. 49.9995%

What percentage of Christians believe in Pre Trib? Again, hypothetical number. 49.9994%

The leaves a hypothetical percentage of .0001% that understand there are two raptures.

And you are one of those and I can't get you to see that the tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars from heaven. And when the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. THEREFORE, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I have no idea why this is so confusing.

By asserting I have no verses and parrot some teachers,

I am posting scripture.
It shows that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Undeniable.
It shows that there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel. FACT. Jesus arrives as Messiah after 69 weeks and then is cut of 3.5 years later. That leaves 3.5 weeks.
It shows the Church is not in heaven before the final week begins.

All I can do is post the scripture. It's there for you to accept or reject.

I am afraid you can not honestly debate since you are using postribber dodge tactics try to make some ridiculous assertions about me as your foundation.

I have dodged nothing brother. Stop getting offended so easily and post scripture that proves what I saying is wrong. It can't be done, because there is no scripture that disproves scripture.

 

[The Light]

I agree that his contentions are in error, but the truth of these matters is not based on "just common sense and logic". You are contradicting what Paul wrote here...

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Notice that Paul says God's word is not based on "words which man's wisdom teacheth" but rather "which the Holy Ghost teacheth". What you call "just common sense and logic" is man's wisdom. You can't rely on your own fallible wisdom. But, you clearly do. You admit it. You need to instead rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding instead of only on human "common sense and logic".

The things that are of God are to be wise and believe the written Word of God. I don't need to dream up an interpretation; I just need to believe what is written.

When God says that immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven and then God says when the sixth seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven with common and sense and simple logic we can determine that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Simple. And yet most people think that the great tribulation when the dragon is killing believers is the same thing as the wrath of God when God is punishing an evil and unbelieving world. Not logical whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The things that are of God are to be wise and believe the written Word of God. I don't need to dream up an interpretation; I just need to believe what is written.

According to Paul, in order to discern what is written, especially as it relates to the things we talk about on this forum, requires spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). Do you agree with Paul or do you think you can figure it all out using your own flawed human wisdom instead?

When God says that immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven and then God says when the sixth seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven with common and sense and simple logic we can determine that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Simple. And yet most people think that the great tribulation when the dragon is killing believers is the same thing as the wrath of God when God is punishing an evil and unbelieving world. Not logical whatsoever.

Clearly, it's not as logical as you think or else there wouldn't be so much disagreement about it. But, human logic can fail you. Spiritual things are not always logical from the human perspective. For example, it's not logical from the human perspective, based on what is written in the Old Testament, that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to one seed, Jesus Christ, and apply to all who belong to Christ, including Gentile believers, but that is what New Testament scripture teaches (Galatians 3:16,29).

 

[The Light]

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Notice that Paul says God's word is not based on "words which man's wisdom teacheth" but rather "which the Holy Ghost teacheth". What you call "just common sense and logic" is man's wisdom. You can't rely on your own fallible wisdom. But, you clearly do. You admit it. You need to instead rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding instead of only on human "common sense and logic".

Do all things of God need spiritual discernment.

When God says.........

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal. Etc. Etc.

Do we need spiritual discernment to understand these things?

 

[jeffweeder]

Do all things of God need spiritual discernment.

When God says.........

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal. Etc. Etc.

Do we need spiritual discernment to understand these things?

If you want the bigger and more complete picture of sins committed, then absolutely yes. With the Spirit intervention your more likely to be cut to the heart and find the repentance God is looking for.



Act 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart [with remorse and anxiety], and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is for you and your children and for all who are far away [including the Gentiles], as many as the Lord our God calls to Himself.”

 

[The Light]

If you want the bigger and more complete picture of sins committed, then absolutely yes. With the Spirit intervention your more likely to be cut to the heart and find the repentance God is looking for.



Act 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart [with remorse and anxiety], and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent [change your old way of thinking, turn from your sinful ways, accept and follow Jesus as the Messiah] and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is for you and your children and for all who are far away [including the Gentiles], as many as the Lord our God calls to Himself.”

My question is do I need spiritual discernment to know what thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not steal means.

Does only a spiritual man understand this?

 

[rebuilder 454]

The final week begins with a 7-year covenant being made with many.

That does not mean that the Church is not here when that covenant is made. As to what the scripture says, Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood and the Church will not be in heaven before the final 7 year period begins. Secondly, the Antichrist will not receive His crown until after the Church is in heaven. Once the Church is in heaven the seals can be opened.

As for the 7 years being the time of Jacobs trouble, one of the years of the 7 year period is the ONE YEAR wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, will be raptured at the 6th seal and then the one year of God begins. I think there is also more time after this for atonement, judgement, Temple mount cleansing etc.

As for the woman, Israel, she will be in a place of protection through the great tribulation and will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

Rev 6 only contains 6 seals and not the one year 7th seal.



Correct. However, the Church will not be in heaven when the 7 year period begins as Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The 1st seal is the 7th king who is the beast of the earth. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Then 7th seal one year of wrath and then the second advent as Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives

The 7 seals are in order. The 7th seal is the wrath of God which contains the 7 trumpets of wrath. It's all over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over and Jesus has returned to earth. And then the judgement. That covers Revelation 6-11. You could stop right there. It's all done. You don't need Revelation 13-16 to know the story.

If you want another view of seals 1 thru 6 with different information that can be seen in Rev 13 and 14. Rev15 is another view of the time period of Revelation 7 and the first part of Rev 8.

If you want another view of the 7th seal wrath of God with different information, that would be Revelation 16.

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. He only loads them once and there is only one flood. In Revelation we get two views of seals 1-6 and two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.


Why would I need to dodge?

What percentage of Christians believe in Post Trib? Let's just pull a number. 49.9995%

What percentage of Christians believe in Pre Trib? Again, hypothetical number. 49.9994%

The leaves a hypothetical percentage of .0001% that understand there are two raptures.

And you are one of those and I can't get you to see that the tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars from heaven. And when the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. THEREFORE, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I have no idea why this is so confusing.


I am posting scripture.
It shows that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Undeniable.
It shows that there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel. FACT. Jesus arrives as Messiah after 69 weeks and then is cut of 3.5 years later. That leaves 3.5 weeks.
It shows the Church is not in heaven before the final week begins.

All I can do is post the scripture. It's there for you to accept or reject.


I have dodged nothing brother. Stop getting offended so easily and post scripture that proves what I saying is wrong. It can't be done, because there is no scripture that disproves scripture.

Show me where you actually honestly answered my question, as to another person with your timeline, with those same assumptions.
Especially your asertion that the wrath is 1 year in length, and that the gathering of rev 14:14 is with power and great glory, and that "after the trib" in mat 24, "in power and great glory", is not the white horse coming.

IOW You seem to claim it does not matter if nobody in the entire body of Christ agrees with your radical interpretations.
You just keep asserting " I am using scripture".

Ahem...every erroneous doctrine uses scripture
In fact, if you torture the bible enough, it can actually say most anything you like it to say.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The final week begins with a 7-year covenant being made with many.

That does not mean that the Church is not here when that covenant is made. As to what the scripture says, Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood and the Church will not be in heaven before the final 7 year period begins. Secondly, the Antichrist will not receive His crown until after the Church is in heaven. Once the Church is in heaven the seals can be opened.

As for the 7 years being the time of Jacobs trouble, one of the years of the 7 year period is the ONE YEAR wrath of God. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth, will be raptured at the 6th seal and then the one year of God begins. I think there is also more time after this for atonement, judgement, Temple mount cleansing etc.

As for the woman, Israel, she will be in a place of protection through the great tribulation and will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

Rev 6 only contains 6 seals and not the one year 7th seal.



Correct. However, the Church will not be in heaven when the 7 year period begins as Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

The 1st seal is the 7th king who is the beast of the earth. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Then 7th seal one year of wrath and then the second advent as Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives

The 7 seals are in order. The 7th seal is the wrath of God which contains the 7 trumpets of wrath. It's all over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over and Jesus has returned to earth. And then the judgement. That covers Revelation 6-11. You could stop right there. It's all done. You don't need Revelation 13-16 to know the story.

If you want another view of seals 1 thru 6 with different information that can be seen in Rev 13 and 14. Rev15 is another view of the time period of Revelation 7 and the first part of Rev 8.

If you want another view of the 7th seal wrath of God with different information, that would be Revelation 16.

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. He only loads them once and there is only one flood. In Revelation we get two views of seals 1-6 and two views of the 7th seal wrath of God.


Why would I need to dodge?

What percentage of Christians believe in Post Trib? Let's just pull a number. 49.9995%

What percentage of Christians believe in Pre Trib? Again, hypothetical number. 49.9994%

The leaves a hypothetical percentage of .0001% that understand there are two raptures.

And you are one of those and I can't get you to see that the tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars from heaven. And when the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. THEREFORE, the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. I have no idea why this is so confusing.


I am posting scripture.
It shows that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Undeniable.
It shows that there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel. FACT. Jesus arrives as Messiah after 69 weeks and then is cut of 3.5 years later. That leaves 3.5 weeks.
It shows the Church is not in heaven before the final week begins.

All I can do is post the scripture. It's there for you to accept or reject.


I have dodged nothing brother. Stop getting offended so easily and post scripture that proves what I saying is wrong. It can't be done, because there is no scripture that disproves scripture.

QUOTE
""I am posting scripture.
It shows that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Undeniable.
It shows that there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel. FACT. Jesus arrives as Messiah after 69 weeks and then is cut of 3.5 years later. That leaves 3.5 weeks.
It shows the Church is not in heaven before the final week begins.

All I can do is post the scripture. It's there for you to accept or reject.""

I am posting scripture here.
Rev 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 6th seal is the second coming in power.

The seals are an overview of the 7 yr trib.
Jacobs trouble.

Why are you bucking scripture?
It is scripture you are disagreeing with.

You started wrong by trying to claim wrath and great trib vs Trib are some strict separation that allows you to reinvent the timeline.

It becomes a problem in that you are now claiming rev14:14 (Jesus sitting on a cloud) ,is no different than when he actually returns in power and great glory.
IOW ..you need Rev 14; 14 to be a totally different picture. ( a return TO EARTH in power and great glory).
That alone should stop you.
But you gloss over it.

ONLY REV 19 ...THE SECOND COMING ...is in power and great glory.

That is scripture.
All my posts are scripture.
Stop claiming scripture, as if only you have verses, and I am outside of scripture.
It is scripture that proves you are wrong.

 

[The Light]

Show me where you actually honestly answered my question, as to another person with your timeline, with those same assumptions.

I told you only .0001 percent (estimate) of the people even know that there are two raptures. I already know that 99.9999% of the people are wrong. If you could gather up all the people that understand there are two raptures, I'm sure we could find someone who can see.

Especially your asertion that the wrath is 1 year in length, and that the gathering of rev 14:14 is with power and great glory, and that "after the trib" in mat 24, "in power and great glory", is not the white horse coming.

Do you see any white horses in Matthew 24? No. Do you see the armies of heaven coming with Jesus when He speaks the Word and sudden destruction comes on the armies of Antichrist? No.

Or do you see Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? A harvest?

Matthew 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

Additionally, I posted scripture that shows that the wrath of God is one year long. This is not my interpretation of scripture.......it is scripture.

The wrath of God is one year long. Scriptural fact.

IOW You seem to claim it does not matter if nobody in the entire body of Christ agrees with your radical interpretations.
You just keep asserting " I am using scripture".

Yeah. My radical interpretations such as...........Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven. That seems pretty clear, no interpretation needed there. And when He opened the 6th seal the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. That seems pretty clear, no interpretation needed there.

Now from that information, if I could just figure out what happens when the sun and moon are darkened and stars fall from heaven.

I've got a radical idea. It's way out there. Maybe when the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and stars fall from heaven. No that can't possibly be it because I would have to believe what is written in Revelation 6. Maybe immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven. Well, that can't be it because that's exactly what it says. So this is so confusing.

You would think we could conclude with a little deductive reasoning that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. No, we can't conclude that because that is what is written.

Ok, everyone else is right. I will have to give up the radical idea of believing what is written. No. I can't do that.

Ahem...every erroneous doctrine uses scripture
In fact, if you torture the bible enough, it can actually say most anything you like it to say.

Do they use scripture exactly as it says? Or do have they drawn unsupported conclusions.

Maybe this will help you understand.

Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[The Light]

I am posting scripture here.
Rev 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 6th seal is the second coming in power.

Bravo. The 6th seal IS the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. After ONE YEAR of wrath, Jesus returns with the armies of heaven on white horses and speaks the word and then sudden destruction on the armies of the Antichrist. After this Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.......the second advent.

Note at the 6th seal that kings and great men are hiding in the rocks and caves or dens. They are hiding because Jesus has come in power and glory.

The seals are an overview of the 7 yr trib.

I do not see a 7 year tribulation in any of the scriptures you have posted. Could you point out the 7 year tribulation in those verses?

Jacobs trouble.

Why are you bucking scripture?
It is scripture you are disagreeing with.

Is Jacobs trouble 7 years long? No. The time of trouble on Daniel's people does not begin until the AOD is set up in the midst of the week.

The time of trouble on Daniels people cannot be longer that 3.5 years as the Word says. And the 7th seal is at least one year of that timeframe.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

[The Light]

You started wrong by trying to claim wrath and great trib vs Trib are some strict separation that allows you to reinvent the timeline.

It becomes a problem in that you are now claiming rev14:14 (Jesus sitting on a cloud) ,is no different than when he actually returns in power and great glory.
IOW ..you need Rev 14; 14 to be a totally different picture. ( a return TO EARTH in power and great glory).
That alone should stop you.
But you gloss over it.

Come on brother. Think

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The 6th seal happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. This is new vision. The vision of the trumpets of wrath will be completed at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is already over and Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals.

ONLY REV 19 ...THE SECOND COMING ...is in power and great glory.

This is incorrect.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

The kings of the earth and rich men are hiding in caves begging the rocks to fall on them because Jesus has come in power and great glory prior to the wrath of God.

You are so hung up on power and glory you can't even see that this occurs when the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur which is when the 6th seal is opened. Wrath has not begun and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened. And wrath concludes when the 7th trumpet has sounded. That is the result of the armies of heaven coming with Jesus in Revelation 19.

That is scripture.
All my posts are scripture.

You are posting scripture, but you are not proving what you are saying.

There is no 7 year tribulation in any of the scriptures you have posted.

Whereas I have posted a scripture that shows that Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

I have posted a scripture that shows the time of Jacobs trouble does not begin until the midst of the week, so Jacob's trouble cannot be 7 years long.

Stop claiming scripture, as if only you have verses, and I am outside of scripture.
It is scripture that proves you are wrong.

As I said above. You make claims but the scripture you are posting does not support your claims. For instance there is no scripture that says that the time of Jacobs trouble is 7 years. The Word of God says it cannot be longer than 3.5 years.........and it is shorter than that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Come on brother. Think

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The 6th seal happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. This is new vision. The vision of the trumpets of wrath will be completed at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is already over and Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals.


This is incorrect.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

The kings of the earth and rich men are hiding in caves begging the rocks to fall on them because Jesus has come in power and great glory prior to the wrath of God.

You are so hung up on power and glory you can't even see that this occurs when the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur which is when the 6th seal is opened. Wrath has not begun and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened. And wrath concludes when the 7th trumpet has sounded. That is the result of the armies of heaven coming with Jesus in Revelation 19.



You are posting scripture, but you are not proving what you are saying.

There is no 7 year tribulation in any of the scriptures you have posted.

Whereas I have posted a scripture that shows that Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

I have posted a scripture that shows the time of Jacobs trouble does not begin until the midst of the week, so Jacob's trouble cannot be 7 years long.




As I said above. You make claims but the scripture you are posting does not support your claims. For instance there is no scripture that says that the time of Jacobs trouble is 7 years. The Word of God says it cannot be longer than 3.5 years.........and it is shorter than that.

QUOTE
""
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

The kings of the earth and rich men are hiding in caves begging the rocks to fall on them because Jesus has come in power and great glory prior to the wrath of God.

You are so hung up on power and glory you can't even see that this occurs when the signs of the sun, moon and stars occur which is when the 6th seal is opened. Wrath has not begun and will not begin until the 7th seal is opened. And wrath concludes when the 7th trumpet has sounded. That is the result of the armies of heaven coming with Jesus in Revelation 19.""

Again the seals are an OVERVIEW of the timeline from the ac revealed ...hello... the first seal, unto the 6th seal as Rev 19 the second coming on white horses.

All that other stuff you made up.
Then accuse me of the same.

BTW Jeremiah 30:7 has zero time line.

So what you now are saying, is that the Jews harvested in Rev 14, come back to earth for the second 3.5 years of the trib?