The "watch rapture view"

[TribulationSigns]

Not our. Your. Jesus filled every vacuum with His descriptions of specific literal events in His Olivet Discourse.

It is through the mind of Christ that we are made to see things that the natural (carnal) mind doesn't see. Things that we understand that the carnal mind doesn't understand. There is always a difference placed by God between the carnal mind and those who have the mind of Christ through His Spirit. This is exactly as God's word explains in 1st Corinthians. And as it has been testified to you before, but you are just not listening to what the Spirit says to the churches.

1st Corinthians 2:12-16

• "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
• Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
• But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
• For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Are you now claiming that the literal destruction of Jerusalem and flight of the Judaean Church are speculations?

Speculation because you interpret God's Word with secular history rather than biblical history by comparing Scripture with Scripture and the mind of Christ as stated above. Big difference!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Dumbest.

Nowhere in Scripture are those who have forsaken the truth described as a church or as members of a church.

Sigh... No surprise you still didn’t get it.


Didn’t Christ call Judas to be one of the Twelve? Yes—but he was never a child of God. He was a child of perdition, a thief who clung to his own doctrines and desires for worldly gain. He rejected the teachings of Christ in favor of what benefited him. Like Esau, he sold his birthright for temporary reward—and it destroyed him.


His spirit was always in prison, never set free. He remained in bondage to sin—not the devil incarnate, but a man possessed by a devil—his own spirit of disobedience.

Luke 22:3-5

• "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
• And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
• And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money."

The same is true for the church after the Cross. Christ has called many—just like Judas—into the church. But they are merely external believers. They are professed Christians, false prophets, and false christs. Only a few are chosen—the true believers, who have the Spirit of Christ and walk in Truth.

Both groups remain side by side within the church until the end—until the many fall like stars, and the few remain with Christ.

 

[Taken]

Dumb! The church is a covenant relationship with God. She has two groups of people within her. A church within a church. "Many are called" (1), "Few are chosen. (2.)"

There are many (the majority) in the church who are professed believers. They are the corporate church. They are the "unfaithful church". The remainder is the chosen Elect - the true church. They are together in a holy city, like the wheat and taries, until the very end! The unfaithful ones will be cast out.

With IN Christs Church…? Two group with and without Christ…?
No.

You are mixing THE Spiritual Church with Secular Jargon.


Not Dumb… rather Exclusively Precise…
They against Christ… ARE NOT IN Christs Church…

The Church… IS Exclusively… Christs Church.
Christ Established…THE Church and called THE Church HIS.
Matt 16:18

“IN” Christs Church… ARE the Faithful.
* Christs Church… IS Not A “Building”.
Christs Church…IS WITH-IN a “Converted” man.
Like 17:21

Man- made buildings, Men call “a Church”…
Visitors and Members of (“Their Man-made Churches”…) are Routinely Occupied with…
* Members (IN Christ) of Christs Church…
* Saints (IN CHRIST) Preachers…
* Holy Angels…(Christs Servants)
* Anti-God men…Not Christs Church!
* Anti-Christ men…Not Christs Church!
* False Preachers…Not Christs Church!
* Demonic Fallen angels…Not Christs Church!

 

[covenantee]

Speculation because you interpret God's Word with secular history rather than biblical history by comparing Scripture with Scripture and the mind of Christ as stated above. Big difference!

Strange. You didn't describe it as speculation here.

"Sure a physical Temple was destroyed, sure there is great physical tribulation, sure people may have fled into physical mountains, sure there is literal famine in the world, sure there is literal pestilence, etc., etc."

Do I detect more than a little squirming?

The destruction of Jerusalem was the sign that all vestiges of the Old Covenant/Testament, both literal and spiritual, had been obliterated, eclipsed, and transcended by the New Covenant/Testament.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[covenantee]

Sigh... No surprise you still didn’t get it.


Didn’t Christ call Judas to be one of the Twelve? Yes—but he was never a child of God. He was a child of perdition, a thief who clung to his own doctrines and desires for worldly gain. He rejected the teachings of Christ in favor of what benefited him. Like Esau, he sold his birthright for temporary reward—and it destroyed him.


His spirit was always in prison, never set free. He remained in bondage to sin—not the devil incarnate, but a man possessed by a devil—his own spirit of disobedience.

Luke 22:3-5

• "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
• And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
• And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money."

The same is true for the church after the Cross. Christ has called many—just like Judas—into the church. But they are merely external believers. They are professed Christians, false prophets, and false christs. Only a few are chosen—the true believers, who have the Spirit of Christ and walk in Truth.

Both groups remain side by side within the church until the end—until the many fall like stars, and the few remain with Christ.

Where did Jesus describe Judas as a church or member thereof?

Book, chapter, verse please.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Where did Jesus describe Judas as a church or member thereof?

Book, chapter, verse please.

No, Jesus did not describe Judas himself as "the church." In the New Testament, the "church" refers to the body of believers who are truly saved and faithful to Christ. Judas, by his own actions and Jesus' Words, was not one of them, even though he was among them physically as an external believer who was not truly saved.

Joh 6:70-71
(70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
(71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus distinguished Judas from the others, even while he was still among them. Likewise, like Judas, the professed Christians are physically still among us, the Elect...in the church, since the Cross. Building together as the wheat and tares. The professed christians have the spirit of the devils. You know what happens in the end.

 

[Davy]

Davy, in Zechariah 14, Jerusalem is not made desolate, unlike Luke 21:20-23. Zechariah 14 is end times. Differently, Luke 21:20-23 was 70ad.

Jesus in verse 4 stands on the Mt. of Olives, His return.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

The very FIRST VERSE of Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord". At the 6th Vial timing, Jesus warns that He comes "as a thief", which is a direct reference to His metaphor of His future coming being like a thief breaking in at midnight. And... it is what Apostles Paul and Peter also declared with their saying the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

So the only way to NOT understand the Zechariah 14:1-7 events happen on the 'day' of Christ's future coming, is to flat DENY it as written in favor of what men's doctrines say, which involves a lot of PLANTED FALSE DOCTRINE BY THE DEVIL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The two witnesses leave this earth on day 1263.5. An earthquake takes place. And then the seventh trumpet sounds.

The seventh trumpet sounding...

1. announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 8:13 - Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing he has but a short time left. A time/times/half time. Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 12:14.

2. announces the days when the mystery of God will be fulfilled. Revelation 10:7

3. brings rejoicing to those in heaven, knowing that Satan's power over the nations is being ended (the mystery of God). The bema judgement seat of Christ in heaven begins, rewards given to the saints. While on earth, the 7 vials of God's wrath are being poured out on earth (for approximately 600 days). Revelation 11:15-18.

Revelation 11:15-18 does not describe what you are describing. It does not allow for 600 more days to occur after that. It signals that it's time for those who destroy the earth to be destroyed and for the dead to be judged right then. Not 600 days later. You are twisting Revelation 11:15-18 and many other scriptures to fit your doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Dumbest.

Nowhere in Scripture are those who have forsaken the truth described as a church or as members of a church.

Exactly right. Like most on this forum, @TribulationSigns gets his doctrine from his imagination and not from scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See, you are still obsessed with Satan, whom you don't fully understand without listening to the discussion on Judea.

Obviously, you do not know, cannot understand, will not believe, and are spiritually blind to what God has not revealed to you. Enough said.

Says the spiritually blind man. I do agree with one thing you said here, which is "Enough said". You have definitely said enough and should not speak anymore. Let those who are not spiritually blind speak instead.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11:15-18 does not describe what you are describing. It does not allow for 600 more days to occur after that. It signals that it's time for those who destroy the earth to be destroyed and for the dead to be judged right then. Not 600 days later. You are twisting Revelation 11:15-18 and many other scriptures to fit your doctrine.

In Revelation 11:16-17, are the twenty four elders rejoicing or not ?

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Now go to Revelation 12:12. Satan cast down to earth is reason for them in heaven to rejoice (the twenty four elders in Revelation 11:16-17 are rejoicing that Satan's power over the nations is soon to end).

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The short time that Satan will have left is the time/times/half time of Revelation 12:14. An expression for approximately 1260 days. The vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:18 "and thy wrath is come") lasting approximately 600 days fits within the time/times/half time (approximately 1260 days) that Satan will have left.

 

[Douggg]

The very FIRST VERSE of Zechariah 14 reveals Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord". At the 6th Vial timing, Jesus warns that He comes "as a thief", which is a direct reference to His metaphor of His future coming being like a thief breaking in at midnight. And... it is what Apostles Paul and Peter also declared with their saying the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

So the only way to NOT understand the Zechariah 14:1-7 events happen on the 'day' of Christ's future coming, is to flat DENY it as written in favor of what men's doctrines say, which involves a lot of PLANTED FALSE DOCTRINE BY THE DEVIL.

Davy, you are post-trib, right ?

So you believe that the rapture is the day that Jesus returns.

So counting from the day that the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years, 7 years later on that same day Jesus returns. How is that like "as a thief in the night" ? As a post-trib believer, you know the day that Jesus returns once the covenant is confirmed by the Antichrist.

 

[Davidpt]

Davy, you are post-trib, right ?

So you believe that the rapture is the day that Jesus returns.

So counting from the day that the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years, 7 years later on that same day Jesus returns. How is that like "as a thief in the night" ? As a post-trib believer, you know the day that Jesus returns once the covenant is confirmed by the Antichrist.

There is no such thing in Scripture anywhere where Christ initially returns as a thief in the night, thus a day and hour which no man knows, then returns yet again later, this time not as a thief in the night nor on a day which no man knows, but this time on a day which all men know. The latter then contradicting that no man knows the day nor hour of His return.

You might argue, well let's take a Pretrib rapture out of the equation then. You still end up with everyone knowing the day and hour of His return since they can simply start counting down from the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast. True. But only if it literally involves 42 literal months. What if it doesn't? What then? How can anyone know when the 42 months end if it isn't even meaning 42 literal months?

Any interpretation that implies one can know the day and hour of His return could not possibly be the correct interpretation. Even Pretrib implies this since one can simply start counting from when Pretribbers left the planet to deduce when He returns. That assuming it's meaning 42 literal months, for example.

 

[Douggg]

There is no such thing in Scripture anywhere where Christ initially returns as a thief in the night, thus a day and hour which no man knows, then returns yet again later, this time not as a thief in the night nor on a day which no man knows, but this time on a day which all men know. The latter then contradicting that no man knows the day nor hour of His return.

You might argue, well let's take a Pretrib rapture out of the equation then. You still end up with everyone knowing the day and hour of His return since they can simply start counting down from the beginning of the 42 month reign of the beast. True. But only if it literally involves 42 literal months. What if it doesn't? What then? How can anyone know when the 42 months end if it isn't even meaning 42 literal months?

Any interpretation that implies one can know the day and hour of His return could not possibly be the correct interpretation. Even Pretrib implies this since one can simply start counting from when Pretribbers left the planet to deduce when He returns. That assuming it's meaning 42 literal months, for example.

Davidpt, Revelation 16:15 Jesus coming like a thief in the night - is referring to the people on earth seeing Jesus's unexpected sudden appearance in the sixth seal event. In reaction, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16:16 to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army of heaven, Revelation 19:19.

 

[Davy]

Davy, you are post-trib, right ?

Isn't that what Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul taught, that Christ's future 2nd coming will be after the tribulation?? (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 1 Thess.4:13-17; 2 Thess.2).

So you believe that the rapture is the day that Jesus returns.

As you well know by now, as I have explained, I don't use that term 'rapture' which is NOT written in God's Word, not in the KJV nor in the Greek NT. The translated phrase is "caught up" by Paul in 1 Thess.4:17. The word rapture comes from a LATIN TRANSLATION of Greek harpazo.

ANOTHER REASON I do not use that word 'rapture' is because of how it is ABUSED by man's false Pre-trib Rapture school. They often use that term 'rapture' by itself as a ploy to get you to believe it always means the Church being gathered PRIOR to the tribulation. God's Word does not teach that though.

The "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17 happens when the future resurrection does, and that... is what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:16-17.

So counting from the day that the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years, 7 years later on that same day Jesus returns. How is that like "as a thief in the night" ? As a post-trib believer, you know the day that Jesus returns once the covenant is confirmed by the Antichrist.

No amount of your attempting to twist words to fit 'your' personal ideas is going to work against the simplicity of the written Bible Scripture.

I have already shown you from the Book of Daniel that the Antichrist at the middle of that 7 year period will end sacrifices in Jerusalem, and instead setup the "abomination of desolation" idol in a new stone temple there built by the deceived Jews.

And when that AOD is setup after the 1st Half of that 7 year period, at THAT point, after the 1st HALF of 1260 days, is when the "great tribulation" will start. That is what the Scriptures reveal, both in the Book of Daniel and in the Book of Revelation.

That must... mean then, that the 1st HALF of 1260 days will involve the Jew's building of their future 3rd stone temple in Jerusalem, and starting up old covenant worship again with animal sacrifices. (Orthodox ultra-religious Jews in Jerusalem have already been sacrificing animals on their Passover on a hill overlooking the temple mount for decades now.)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Revelation 11:16-17, are the twenty four elders rejoicing or not ?

Yes. So? What is your point? Stop being vague.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

His wrath will come at the seventh trumpet and it will then be time for Him to "destroy them which destroy the earth". He will do that on the day He returns (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

The seventh trumpet also signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". The dead are judged AFTER the thousand years. Your Premil doctrine does not hold up to scrutiny.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now go to Revelation 12:12. Satan cast down to earth is reason for them in heaven to rejoice (the twenty four elders in Revelation 11:16-17 are rejoicing that Satan's power over the nations is soon to end).

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The short time that Satan will have left is the time/times/half time of Revelation 12:14. An expression for approximately 1260 days. The vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:18 "and thy wrath is come") lasting approximately 600 days fits within the time/times/half time (approximately 1260 days) that Satan will have left.

Satan was cast out of heaven long ago, as I've told you several times. That's why no one, including Satan, has been able to accuse God's chosen since Christ's resurrection and ascension (Romans 8:31-35).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Davy, you are post-trib, right ?

So you believe that the rapture is the day that Jesus returns.

So counting from the day that the Antichrist confirms the covenant for 7 years, 7 years later on that same day Jesus returns. How is that like "as a thief in the night" ? As a post-trib believer, you know the day that Jesus returns once the covenant is confirmed by the Antichrist.

Douggg, you know that not everyone believes that the 70th week is not fulfilled and that it has anything to do with an Antichrist confirming a covenent, right? Why do you assume that any post-trib believes that nonsense?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Davidpt, Revelation 16:15 Jesus coming like a thief in the night - is referring to the people on earth seeing Jesus's unexpected sudden appearance in the sixth seal event. In reaction, the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon in Revelation 16:16 to prepare to make war on Jesus and his army of heaven, Revelation 19:19.

What are you talking about? For one thing, Revelation 16:15 is the sixth vial, not the sixth seal. And it also doesn't say anything about Jesus appearing at that time. It's Jesus reminding everyone that He will be coming as a thief some time soon after the sixth vial is poured out.

 

[Douggg]

Satan was cast out of heaven long ago, as I've told you several times. That's why no one, including Satan, has been able to accuse God's chosen since Christ's resurrection and ascension (Romans 8:31-35).

Revelation 12:7-9, the war is in the second heaven. Satan was cast out of the third heaven long ago.

In Revelation 12:12, Satan cast down to earth will have great wrath knowing that his time is short. The time/times/half time of Revelation 12:14.

 

[amigo de christo]

Exactly right. Like most on this forum, @TribulationSigns gets his doctrine from his imagination and not from scripture.

Correct my friend . the wheat is the church , the tares are of the world .
Many twist things to fit the doctrines of men .
Now sadly it is true that many tares now sit in many churches and worse many tares now lead
many churches . But the sheep dont heed those .
The field is THE WORLD . JESUS never said it was the church . ITS the WORLD .
this simply means that there are believers and unbelievers in the world
Some folks try and say the field is the church . NOPE . JESUS said WORLD .