The Wonders in the Heavens

[guysmith]

Revelation 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Many years ago, when I first read this I was under the impression that a destructive event would occur that would put large amounts of debris into the atmosphere, so much so that it would block out the light of the sun and the moon. From the beginning I never felt comfortable with that assessment. The problem was that if there was enough debris in the atmosphere to totally block out the sun, then the moon would be blocked out completely also.

I have since changed my assessment and today instead of one event I believe it is possible that it is a combination of two events that accounts for this phenomena.

1. The first is a destructive event that upheaves enough debris into the atmosphere to reduce the light of the moon.
2. The second event is where something large enough to completely eclipse the suns light from the earth will be positioned in front of the sun but outside the orbit of the moon.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

 

[daq]

Revelation 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Many years ago, when I first read this I was under the impression that a destructive event would occur that would put large amounts of debris into the atmosphere, so much so that it would block out the light of the sun and the moon. From the beginning I never felt comfortable with that assessment. The problem was that if there was enough debris in the atmosphere to totally block out the sun, then the moon would be blocked out completely also.

I have since changed my assessment and today instead of one event I believe it is possible that it is a combination of two events that accounts for this phenomena.

1. The first is a destructive event that upheaves enough debris into the atmosphere to reduce the light of the moon.
2. The second event is where something large enough to completely eclipse the suns light from the earth will be positioned in front of the sun but outside the orbit of the moon.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

The sixth seal passage consists of much more than the single verse you have quoted:

Revelation 6:12-17 KJV
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [Isaiah 34:4]
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; [Isaiah 34:4] and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In addition the passage above is quoting directly from Isaiah the prophet:

Isaiah 34:1-7 KJV
1. Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2. For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [Revelation 6:13-14]
5. For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6. The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Now therefore if you say that what you have quoted will be seen literally with the eyes of the flesh by all the world at a single event, (or two back-to-back, consecutive, or coinciding events) then you must faithfully follow through with your interpretation and apply the same standards to the rest of the information available from the passage context and in addition the context of the quote which the author has quoted from, (if one truly desires to stay in context). This means that you should be expecting to witness, at the same time, all of the following events with your physical eyes as they occur in the heavens for all to see:

1) Both solar and lunar anomalies whether one event or two simultaneous events.
2) The sword of the heavenly Father bathed in blood and bathed in heaven.
3) The mountains melted with blood.
4) The heavens coiling or uncoiling like a scroll.
5) All the host of heaven dissolved.
6) All the stars of heaven falling to the earth.
7) Every mountain and island moved out from their places.
8) Aurochs-"unicorns", bullocks, and bulls, coming down to earth with the falling stars.

Is this what you believe? :)

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Revelation 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Many years ago, when I first read this I was under the impression that a destructive event would occur that would put large amounts of debris into the atmosphere, so much so that it would block out the light of the sun and the moon. From the beginning I never felt comfortable with that assessment. The problem was that if there was enough debris in the atmosphere to totally block out the sun, then the moon would be blocked out completely also.

I have since changed my assessment and today instead of one event I believe it is possible that it is a combination of two events that accounts for this phenomena.

1. The first is a destructive event that upheaves enough debris into the atmosphere to reduce the light of the moon.
2. The second event is where something large enough to completely eclipse the suns light from the earth will be positioned in front of the sun but outside the orbit of the moon.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Guy,

At the time of the sixth seal the heavens will roll up as a scroll.

Fire in the Sky

Jeremiah 25:15-17,
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

[SIZE=16pt] (((God cause man to fight man by nuclear war)))[/SIZE]
31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.



[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:10[/SIZE]–15 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 6:12[/SIZE]–14 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 34:1[/SIZE]–8 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Another Old Testament prophet, Isaiah, also foresaw the nuclear war and he prophesied that the heavens will burn and roll up as a scroll. Apparently, all of the airplanes and nuclear missiles will fall from the sky during the war when the atmosphere burns. This judgment will be on all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 51:5[/SIZE]–11 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 25:1[/SIZE]–7 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In Isaiah 30:25[/SIZE]–26, it says that the sun will become seven times stronger in the day of great slaughter. The day of great slaughter happens when the nuclear war takes place and the ozone layer is burned up as a scroll. Malachi 4:1 says that the earth will burn as an oven. In looking to the encyclopedia to see what parts of the atmosphere can burn, you will discover that the ozone is a triple oxygen molecule.
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone layer and the hydrogen layer are next to each other in the atmosphere above the earth. The chemical reaction when they burn is as follows:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heat + oxygen + hydrogen = H2O (water) + greater heat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone and hydrogen layers will be set on fire over Israel by an atomic blast, and then they will burn like the Hindenburg blimp. When the ozone and hydrogen burn, it will form hot water vapor that will condense into water droplets that will then become rain, which will form great hailstones that will fall to the earth along with torrential rain. When the atmosphere burns, the heavens will roll up as a scroll all the way around the earth, over every nation.[/SIZE]

 

[guysmith]

Now therefore if you say that what you have quoted will be seen literally with the eyes of the flesh by all the world at a single event, (or two back-to-back, consecutive, or coinciding events) then you must faithfully follow through with your interpretation and apply the same standards to the rest of the information available from the passage context and in addition the context of the quote which the author has quoted from, (if one truly desires to stay in context). This means that you should be expecting to witness, at the same time, all of the following events with your physical eyes as they occur in the heavens for all to see:

1) Both solar and lunar anomalies whether one event or two simultaneous events.
2) The sword of the heavenly Father bathed in blood and bathed in heaven.
3) The mountains melted with blood.
4) The heavens coiling or uncoiling like a scroll.
5) All the host of heaven dissolved.
6) All the stars of heaven falling to the earth.
7) Every mountain and island moved out from their places.
8) Aurochs-"unicorns", bullocks, and bulls, coming down to earth with the falling stars.

Is this what you believe? :)

Yes, I believe that these events have a literal explanation. You might not agree with the explanation, however, these particular passages are describing physical (not spiritual) events.

 

[daq]

Yes, I believe that these events have a literal explanation. You might not agree with the explanation, however, these particular passages are describing physical (not spiritual) events.

Are you saying that all the literal stars along with literal bullocks and bulls will fall from the heavens and/or sky to the earth?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, daq.

Are you saying that all the literal stars along with literal bullocks and bulls will fall from the heavens and/or sky to the earth?

Yes, bro', literal "shooting stars" or "falling stars" or "meteors" fall, and if they strike the earth, we call them "meteorites." And, since "heavens" (ouranoi or shaamayim) means "skies," yes, they fall from the skies.

And, you've mistaken the Hebrew to read that the "unicorns," the bullocks, and the bulls fall with them! Consider these two versions:


Isaiah 34:1-17
1 Come near, you nations, and listen;
pay attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
the world, and all that comes out of it!
2 The Lord is angry with all nations;
his wrath is upon all their armies.
He will totally destroy them,
he will give them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
their dead bodies will send up a stench;
the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
4 All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved
and the sky rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

5 My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
see, it descends in judgment on Edom,
the people I have totally destroyed.
6 The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood,
it is covered with fat — the blood of lambs and goats,
fat from the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
and a great slaughter in Edom.
7 And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
9 Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.
12 Her nobles will have nothing there to be called a kingdom,
all her princes will vanish away.
13 Thorns will overrun her citadels,
nettles and brambles her strongholds.
She will become a haunt for jackals,
a home for owls.
14 Desert creatures will meet with hyenas,
and wild goats will bleat to each other;
there the night creatures will also repose
and find for themselves places of rest.
15 The owl will nest there and lay eggs,
she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings;
there also the falcons will gather,
each with its mate.

16 Look in the scroll of the Lord and read:

None of these will be missing,
not one will lack her mate.
For it is his mouth that has given the order,
and his Spirit will gather them together.
17 He allots their portions;
his hand distributes them by measure.
They will possess it forever
and dwell there from generation to generation.
NIV

and

Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) 34:1-17
34:1 Come close, you nations, and listen!
Pay close attention, you peoples!
Let the earth hear, and everything in it;
the world, with all it produces.
2 For Adonai is angry at every nation,
furious with all their armies;
he has completely destroyed them,
handed them over to slaughter.
3 Their slain will be thrown out,
the stench will rise from their corpses,
the mountains will flow with their blood.
4 The whole host of heaven will decompose,
the heavens themselves be rolled up like a scroll;
all their array will wither away
like a withering grape-leaf that falls from a vine
or a withered fig from a fig tree.

5 “For my sword has drunk its fill in heaven;
now it descends on Edom to judge them,
the people I have doomed to destruction.”
6 There is a sword that belongs to Adonai.
It is filled with blood, gorged with fat,
filled with the blood of lambs and goats,
gorged with the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For Adonai has a sacrifice in Botzrah,
a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen will fall with them,
the young bulls with the strong, mature ones.
Their land will be drunk with blood
and their dust made greasy with fat.
8 For Adonai has a day of vengeance,
a year of requital for fighting with Tziyon.
9 Its streams will be changed to tar,
its dust to sulfur, its land burning tar
10 that will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
In all generations it will lie waste;
no one will pass through it ever again.
11 Horned owl and hawk will possess it,
screech owl and raven will live there;
he will stretch over it the measuring line of confusion
and the plumbline of the empty void.
12 Of its nobles, none will be called to be king,
and all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will overgrow its palaces,
nettles and thistles its fortresses;
it will become a lair for jackals,
an enclosure for ostriches.
14 Wildcats and hyenas will meet there;
and billy-goats call to each other;
Lilit [the night monster] will lurk there
and find herself a place to rest.
15 There the hoot owl will nest, lay her eggs,
hatch and gather her young in its shade.
There the vultures will assemble,
every one with its mate.
16 Consult the book of Adonai and read it:
not one of these will be missing,
none will be lacking a mate.
For by his own mouth he gave the order,
and by his Spirit he brought them together.
17 It is he who cast the lot for them,
his hand measured out their shares.
They will possess it forever,
and live there through all generations.
CJB

It's not that they "fall out of the sky with the stars"; it's that they "fall with their owners," the Idumeans!

One doesn't have to "spiritualize" this passage or explain it away with some sort of allegorical speculation. All one has to do is understand the gist of the passage, learn what the various unfamiliar nouns mean, and trust to the sense of the author and the Author! They are going to relate what they are talking about in a coherent manner that will make sense to whomever reads the passage!

 

[daq]

Shabbat shalom, daq.
Yes, bro', literal "shooting stars" or "falling stars" or "meteors" fall, and if they strike the earth, we call them "meteorites." And, since "heavens" (ouranoi or shaamayim) means "skies," yes, they fall from the skies.

Who gave you the right to change kowkabim-stars into 'ebenim-stones?
They are not the same things in the Scripture:

Joshua 10:10-12 KJV with Strong's Definitions
10:10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.
10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.
10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Guysmith do you agree with Retrobyter? :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Who gave you the right to change kowkabim-stars into 'ebenim-stones?
They are not the same things in the Scripture:

Joshua 10:10-12 KJV with Strong's Definitions
10:10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.
10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.
10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Guysmith do you agree with Retrobyter? :)

Who gave you the right to reject the obvious? Kokhaviym simply means "round objects"; that's all, and frankly it applied to ANYTHING that was seen in the sky, whether stars, asteroids, planets, or meteors! It's also possible that the LORD'S "sword" is a comet, since that is the shape the tail takes on from earth's vantage point!

Hail stones are just that - HAIL STONES! Balls of ice that are formed in tall thunderclouds! So, who's mixing up what?

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.

Who gave you the right to reject the obvious? Kokhaviym simply means "round objects"; that's all, and frankly it applied to ANYTHING that was seen in the sky, whether stars, asteroids, planets, or meteors! It's also possible that the LORD'S "sword" is a comet, since that is the shape the tail takes on from earth's vantage point!

Hail stones are just that - HAIL STONES! Balls of ice that are formed in tall thunderclouds! So, who's mixing up what?

Kowkab does not only mean "round objects" according to the contextual usages of it found in Scripture:

Genesis 15:1-6
1. After these things the Word of YHWH came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2. And Abram said, 'Adonay YHWH, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3. And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4. And, behold, the Word of YHWH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6. And he believed in The YHWH; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The seed of Abram would be as the telling of the stars for number.

Genesis 22:15-18
15. And the Mal'ak of YHWH called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16. And said, By myself have I sworn, saith YHWH, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The seed of Abraham as the stars and as the sand of the seashore.

Genesis 26:3-6
3. Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4. And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

And the seed of Isaac would be as the stars of heaven.

Genesis 32:24-30
24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with 'Elohiym and with men, and hast prevailed.
29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen 'Elohiym face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jacob was blessed by God and his name was changed to ISRAEL.

Genesis 37:9-11
9. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11. And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

The twelve stars in the dream of Joseph are himself and his eleven brothers: The twelve stars are the twelve sons of Jacob. Jacob already interprets the dream for us revealing himself to be the SUN and Rachel to be the MOON (Rachel was the mother of Joseph). Although Jacob rebukes Joseph over the dream the Scripture explicitly states that Jacob "OBSERVED THE SAYING".

Yacob is the man surnamed "Yisra'el"

ISRAEL = THE SUN
RACHEL = THE MOON
TWELVE TRIBAL HEADS = TWELVE STARS

From here the foundation is laid for all Scripture typology concerning the "Stars of Heaven" and therefore the stars of heaven are PEOPLE. Specifically the Stars of Heaven are the sons of Jacob, the children of Israel, the Twelve Tribes, even the Saints, (there be also the "wandering stars" as mentioned in Jude 1:13).

The Song of Deborah and Barak

Judges 5:14-20
14. Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.
15. And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.
16. Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.
17. Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.
18. Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
19. The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
20. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Sisera was a Canaanite king defeated at Megiddo.
The typology of Sisera is haSatan, the devil, and the red dragon.
The stars fought from heaven and the stars are the Twelve Tribes.
The stars of Israel jeoparded their lives in "the high places of the field".
The stars loved not their lives unto the death ~ Revelation 12:11

Psalms 147:2-4
2. YHWH doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel.
3. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.
4. He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

All of these above Scripture references to "stars" employ the same Hebrew word "kowkab" concerning the people of God.

Original Strong's Ref. #3556
Romanized kowkab
Pronounced ko-kawb'
probably from the same as HSN3522 (in the sense of rolling) or HSN3554 (in the sense of blazing); a star (as round or as shining); figuratively, a prince:
KJV--star([-gazer]).

In Daniel 8 we read of "the stars of heaven" being trampled by a little horn.
There is a war between the little horn and the Sar-Prince of the tsaba'-army of heaven.

Daniel 8:8-11a KJV
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Tsebiy].
10. And it waxed great, even to the host [HSN#6635 tsaba'] of heaven; and it cast down some of the host [HSN#6635 tsaba'] and of the stars [HSN#3556 kowkab] to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11a. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince [HSN#8269 sar] of the host,[HSN#6635 tsaba']

Original Strong's Ref. #6635
Romanized tsaba'
Pronounced tsaw-baw'
or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from HSN6633; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship):
KJV--appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

Original Strong's Ref. #8269
Romanized sar
Pronounced sar
from HSN8323; a head person (of any rank or class):
KJV--captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-])master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward.

Daniel 8:8-11a
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the Tsebiy-beautiful land.
10. And it waxed great, even to the army of heaven; and it cast down some of the army and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11a. Yea, he magnified himself even to the Sar of the army . . .

The interpretation given in Daniel 8:25 tells us who "the Sar" is.
He is the "Sar-sariym" which is translated "Prince of princes" . . .

Daniel 8:25 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Hebrew Bible)
25. W`al- siklow whitsliyach mirmahbyadow. Uwbilbabow yagdiyl. Uwbshalwah yashchiyt rabiym.W`al- Sar- sariym ya`mod. Uwb'epec yad yishaber.

Daniel 8:23-25 KJV
23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The Prince or "Captain of the host" is thus clarified to Daniel:

Joshua 5:13-15
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Captain [HSN#8269 sar] of the host [HSN#6635 tsaba'] of YHWH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15. And the Captain of the host of YHWH [Sar- tsba' YHWH] said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Joshua 5:15 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
15. Wayo'mer sar- tsba' YHWH 'el- Yhowshua`, Shal-na`alka me`al ragleka kiy hamaqowm 'sher 'atah `omed`alayw qodesh! Huw' waya`as Yhowshua` ken.

The Sar of the army of the Stars of Heaven is Miyka'el haSar haGadol ~

Daniel 10:21 KJV
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince [HSN#8269 sar].

Daniel 12:1-3 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [ha-Sar ha-Gadowl] which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars [HSN#3556 kowkab] for ever and ever.

JACOB = ISRAEL
ISRAEL = THE SUN
Stars of Heaven = Army of Heaven - The Tribes - The Saints
Sar-sariym = Prince of princes - Captain of the Army of Heaven
Miyka'el ~ Standing for the children of the people of Daniel
Miyka'el ~ The Great Prince ~ "ha-Sar ha-Gadowl"

In addition to these things the book of the Revelation of Yeshua contains other clear statements concerning "stars" which clearly reveal that they concern much more than simply shining orbs in the heavens. Stars are either angelic messengers, (whether for the good or the evil) or else they may concern people and specifically the people of God:

Revelation 9:1-2 KJV
1. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 12:3-4 KJV
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: [Daniel 8:10] and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Who gave you the right to change the Scripture concerning the stars of heaven and people of God?
Who told you that you have the right to teach the machinations of your own vain imagination as truth?
Who whispered in your ear to water down the Word so as to insert your own fleshly perverse mindset into it? :lol:

Get yourself the backbone of a true disciple and let the Word interpret the Word! :)

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

GuySmith ..... some random thoughts

---it says the sun and moon "turn" different colors ... it may not be because of something tossed into the atmosphere

--- I also have a hard time with all the stars in the sky falling to earth .... to me it is impossible .

--- same as the sky rolling up

--- yet parts sound literal .... men hiding under rocks and in caves.

I have always wondered why prophecy is so convoluted ... it serves no purpose

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

Kowkab does not only mean "round objects" according to the contextual usages of it found in Scripture:

Genesis 15:1-6
1. After these things the Word of YHWH came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2. And Abram said, 'Adonay YHWH, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3. And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4. And, behold, the Word of YHWH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5. And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6. And he believed in The YHWH; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The seed of Abram would be as the telling of the stars for number.

Genesis 22:15-18
15. And the Mal'ak of YHWH called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16. And said, By myself have I sworn, saith YHWH, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17. That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18. And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The seed of Abraham as the stars and as the sand of the seashore.

Genesis 26:3-6
3. Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4. And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

And the seed of Isaac would be as the stars of heaven.

Genesis 32:24-30
24. And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with 'Elohiym and with men, and hast prevailed.
29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen 'Elohiym face to face, and my life is preserved.

Jacob was blessed by God and his name was changed to ISRAEL.

Genesis 37:9-11
9. And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11. And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

The twelve stars in the dream of Joseph are himself and his eleven brothers: The twelve stars are the twelve sons of Jacob. Jacob already interprets the dream for us revealing himself to be the SUN and Rachel to be the MOON (Rachel was the mother of Joseph). Although Jacob rebukes Joseph over the dream the Scripture explicitly states that Jacob "OBSERVED THE SAYING".

Yacob is the man surnamed "Yisra'el"

ISRAEL = THE SUN
RACHEL = THE MOON
TWELVE TRIBAL HEADS = TWELVE STARS

From here the foundation is laid for all Scripture typology concerning the "Stars of Heaven" and therefore the stars of heaven are PEOPLE. Specifically the Stars of Heaven are the sons of Jacob, the children of Israel, the Twelve Tribes, even the Saints, (there be also the "wandering stars" as mentioned in Jude 1:13).

The Song of Deborah and Barak

Judges 5:14-20
14. Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.
15. And the princes of Issachar were with Deborah; even Issachar, and also Barak: he was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great thoughts of heart.
16. Why abodest thou among the sheepfolds, to hear the bleatings of the flocks? For the divisions of Reuben there were great searchings of heart.
17. Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches.
18. Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that jeoparded their lives unto the death in the high places of the field.
19. The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.
20. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Sisera was a Canaanite king defeated at Megiddo.
The typology of Sisera is haSatan, the devil, and the red dragon.
The stars fought from heaven and the stars are the Twelve Tribes.
The stars of Israel jeoparded their lives in "the high places of the field".
The stars loved not their lives unto the death ~ Revelation 12:11

Psalms 147:2-4
2. YHWH doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel.
3. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.
4. He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

All of these above Scripture references to "stars" employ the same Hebrew word "kowkab" concerning the people of God.

Original Strong's Ref. #3556
Romanized kowkab
Pronounced ko-kawb'
probably from the same as HSN3522 (in the sense of rolling) or HSN3554 (in the sense of blazing); a star (as round or as shining); figuratively, a prince:
KJV--star([-gazer]).

In Daniel 8 we read of "the stars of heaven" being trampled by a little horn.
There is a war between the little horn and the Sar-Prince of the tsaba'-army of heaven.

Daniel 8:8-11a KJV
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Tsebiy].
10. And it waxed great, even to the host [HSN#6635 tsaba'] of heaven; and it cast down some of the host [HSN#6635 tsaba'] and of the stars [HSN#3556 kowkab] to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11a. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince [HSN#8269 sar] of the host,[HSN#6635 tsaba']

Original Strong's Ref. #6635
Romanized tsaba'
Pronounced tsaw-baw'
or (feminine) tsbadah {tseb-aw-aw'}; from HSN6633; a mass of persons (or figuratively, things), especially reg. organized for war (an army); by implication, a campaign, literally or figuratively (specifically, hardship, worship):
KJV--appointed time, (+) army, (+) battle, company, host, service, soldiers, waiting upon, war(-fare).

Original Strong's Ref. #8269
Romanized sar
Pronounced sar
from HSN8323; a head person (of any rank or class):
KJV--captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-])master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward.

Daniel 8:8-11a
8. Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the Tsebiy-beautiful land.
10. And it waxed great, even to the army of heaven; and it cast down some of the army and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11a. Yea, he magnified himself even to the Sar of the army . . .

The interpretation given in Daniel 8:25 tells us who "the Sar" is.
He is the "Sar-sariym" which is translated "Prince of princes" . . .

Daniel 8:25 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Hebrew Bible)
25. W`al- siklow whitsliyach mirmahbyadow. Uwbilbabow yagdiyl. Uwbshalwah yashchiyt rabiym.W`al- Sar- sariym ya`mod. Uwb'epec yad yishaber.

Daniel 8:23-25 KJV
23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The Prince or "Captain of the host" is thus clarified to Daniel:

Joshua 5:13-15
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Captain [HSN#8269 sar] of the host [HSN#6635 tsaba'] of YHWH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15. And the Captain of the host of YHWH [Sar- tsba' YHWH] said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Joshua 5:15 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented)
15. Wayo'mer sar- tsba' YHWH 'el- Yhowshua`, Shal-na`alka me`al ragleka kiy hamaqowm 'sher 'atah `omed`alayw qodesh! Huw' waya`as Yhowshua` ken.

The Sar of the army of the Stars of Heaven is Miyka'el haSar haGadol ~

Daniel 10:21 KJV
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince [HSN#8269 sar].

Daniel 12:1-3 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [ha-Sar ha-Gadowl] which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars [HSN#3556 kowkab] for ever and ever.

JACOB = ISRAEL
ISRAEL = THE SUN
Stars of Heaven = Army of Heaven - The Tribes - The Saints
Sar-sariym = Prince of princes - Captain of the Army of Heaven
Miyka'el ~ Standing for the children of the people of Daniel
Miyka'el ~ The Great Prince ~ "ha-Sar ha-Gadowl"

In addition to these things the book of the Revelation of Yeshua contains other clear statements concerning "stars" which clearly reveal that they concern much more than simply shining orbs in the heavens. Stars are either angelic messengers, (whether for the good or the evil) or else they may concern people and specifically the people of God:

Revelation 9:1-2 KJV
1. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Revelation 12:3-4 KJV
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: [Daniel 8:10] and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Who gave you the right to change the Scripture concerning the stars of heaven and people of God?
Who told you that you have the right to teach the machinations of your own vain imagination as truth?
Who whispered in your ear to water down the Word so as to insert your own fleshly perverse mindset into it? :lol:

Get yourself the backbone of a true disciple and let the Word interpret the Word! :)

Who gave you the right to take an analogy out of its context and apply it willy-nilly everywhere and anywhere you please?!

Really? The stars of heaven represent the "Army of Heaven - The Tribes - The Saints"? So, is that what they mean here?

Job 38:1-7

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
KJV

You have a few minor errors that have escalated to a major one. First of all, the mother mentioned in Genesis 37:9-11 (the dream that Yowceef-Joseph had and shared with his family), represented by the moon, was Lee'aah-Leah, not Raacheel-Rachel! This dream happened when Yowceef was already 17 years old (Genesis 37:2), and Raacheel died in childbirth with Binyamiyn-Benjamin (Genesis 35:18), probably when Yowceef was less that 5 years old. The only mother - the wife of his father - that he knew at the time was Lee'aah!

Lee'aah was the only stepmother Yowceef had who would know that he ascended to the throne of Pharaoh in Egypt!

Furthermore, the prophecy found within this dream was FULFILLED in Yowceef's lifetime! The word meaning "to bow down (as to royalty)" is "shaataah," used in Genesis 37:9 and 10. The word is also found in Genesis 42:6 and 43:26 and 28:

Genesis 42:6-9

6 And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.
7 And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself strange unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, Whence come ye? And they said, From the land of Canaan to buy food.
8 And Joseph knew his brethren, but they knew not him.
9 And Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said unto them, Ye are spies; to see the nakedness of the land ye are come.
KJV


Genesis 43:15-30
15 And the men took that present, and they took double money in their hand, and Benjamin; and rose up, and went down to Egypt, and stood before Joseph.
16 And when Joseph saw Benjamin with them, he said to the ruler of his house, Bring these men home, and slay, and make ready; for these men shall dine with me at noon.
17 And the man did as Joseph bade; and the man brought the men into Joseph's house.
18 And the men were afraid, because they were brought into Joseph's house; and they said, Because of the money that was returned in our sacks at the first time are we brought in; that he may seek occasion against us, and fall upon us, and take us for bondmen, and our asses.
19 And they came near to the steward of Joseph's house, and they communed with him at the door of the house,
20 And said, O sir, we came indeed down at the first time to buy food:
21 And it came to pass, when we came to the inn, that we opened our sacks, and, behold, every man's money was in the mouth of his sack, our money in full weight: and we have brought it again in our hand.
22 And other money have we brought down in our hands to buy food: we cannot tell who put our money in our sacks.
23 And he said, Peace be to you, fear not: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money. And he brought Simeon out unto them.
24 And the man brought the men into Joseph's house, and gave them water, and they washed their feet; and he gave their asses provender.
25 And they made ready the present against Joseph came at noon: for they heard that they should eat bread there.
26 And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed themselves to him to the earth.
27 And he asked them of their welfare, and said, Is your father well, the old man of whom ye spake? Is he yet alive?
28 And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.
29 And he lifted up his eyes, and saw his brother Benjamin, his mother's son, and said, Is this your younger brother, of whom ye spake unto me? And he said, God be gracious unto thee, my son.
30 And Joseph made haste; for his bowels did yearn upon his brother: and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.
KJV

The word is used again in Genesis 47:27-31:

Genesis 47:27-31

27 And Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions therein, and grew, and multiplied exceedingly.
28 And Jacob lived in the land of Egypt seventeen years: so the whole age of Jacob was an hundred forty and seven years.
29 And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:
30 But I will lie with my fathers, and thou shalt carry me out of Egypt, and bury me in their buryingplace. And he said, I will do as thou hast said.
31 And he said, Swear unto me. And he sware unto him. And Israel bowed himself upon the bed's head.
KJV


And, if Yisra'eel-Isra'el bowed himself to Yowceef, you can be sure that Lee'aah did as well. Everyone, with the exception of the Pharaoh and perhaps his heirs, would have bowed to Yowceef in Mizraim-Egypt as Pharaoh's second in command.

Thus, the prophecy was FULFILLED!

It is wrong, therefore, to YANK the analogy OUT OF ITS CONTEXT and try to apply it anywhere else! The ONLY other context in which it would be applicable are those contexts that quote the first context, whether directly or indirectly. An example would be Revelation 12:1ff:

Revelation 12:1-2

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
KJV

This appears to be an indirect reference to this dream/prophecy of Yowceef, suggesting that the woman appears to represent the children of Isra'el as a nation. (Of course, it could also be a DIRECT reference to the constellation Virgo, also representing Isra'el, in the Mazzaarowt (the Zodiac, Job 38:32), giving the precise time of the year and month by where the sun and the moon appear in the constellation. (She's pictured "wearing the sun" as clothes and having "the moon under her feet.")

No one has "changed the Scripture concerning the stars of heaven and the people of God." Who do you think you are to insert your own far-fetched interpretations into the Scriptures to make them unintelligible and change their simple meaning? In Genesis 15:1-6; 22:15-18; and 26:3-6, all that was meant by the saying is, "You're not going to be able to count your children any better than you can count the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore!" And, Genesis 32:24-30 simply passed this promise on to Yitschaq, Avraham's son.

Today, it is estimated that there are between 13 and 14 MILLION Jews in the world, but that's just those who CAN safely report their populations and may not include all of those who are descendants from the other tribes. Furthermore, new pockets of Jewish populations are found each year in some of the most unlikely places!

Then, you asked, "Who told you that you have the right to teach the machinations of your own vain imagination as truth?" And, I say, "Right back at ya', buddy!" Who told you that YOU have the right to teach the nonsense of YOUR own vain imagination as truth?!

To your question, "Who whispered in your ear to water down the Word so as to insert your own fleshly perverse mindset into it?" I answer this: I'm not "watering down the Word"; I'm washing the filth of your teachings OFF of God's pure Word! JUST READ! Let it sink INTO you; quit trying to OVERLAY YOUR thoughts on His Word, passing them off as though they were a part of His Word!

Jeremiah 23:29-32

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord ; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
KJV

Job 19:21-27
21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV


Acts 4:33
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
KJV

Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Philippians 3:8-14
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
KJV

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

1 Corinthians 15:1-58
1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them — yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I die every day — I mean that, brothers — just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,for tomorrow we die."
33 Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God — I say this to your shame.
35 But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

"Death has been swallowed up in victory."

55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
NIV

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Looks like Daq and Retro are writing another book

 

[Eric E Stahl]

GuySmith ..... some random thoughts

---it says the sun and moon "turn" different colors ... it may not be because of something tossed into the atmosphere

--- I also have a hard time with all the stars in the sky falling to earth .... to me it is impossible .

--- same as the sky rolling up

--- yet parts sound literal .... men hiding under rocks and in caves.

I have always wondered why prophecy is so convoluted ... it serves no purpose

Fire in the Sky 2

Arnie,

God will cause man to fight a nuclear war, which will destroy and thin the atmosphere and let more meteors impact the earth.

Jeremiah 25:15-17,
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

[SIZE=16pt] (((God cause man to fight man by nuclear war)))[/SIZE]
31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.



[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:10[/SIZE]–15 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 6:12[/SIZE]–14 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 34:1[/SIZE]–8 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Another Old Testament prophet, Isaiah, also foresaw the nuclear war and he prophesied that the heavens will burn and roll up as a scroll. Apparently, all of the airplanes and nuclear missiles will fall from the sky during the war when the atmosphere burns. This judgment will be on all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 51:5[/SIZE]–11 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 25:1[/SIZE]–7 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In Isaiah 30:25[/SIZE]–26, it says that the sun will become seven times stronger in the day of great slaughter. The day of great slaughter happens when the nuclear war takes place and the ozone layer is burned up as a scroll. Malachi 4:1 says that the earth will burn as an oven. In looking to the encyclopedia to see what parts of the atmosphere can burn, you will discover that the ozone is a triple oxygen molecule.
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone layer and the hydrogen layer are next to each other in the atmosphere above the earth. The chemical reaction when they burn is as follows:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Heat + oxygen + hydrogen = H2O (water) + greater heat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone and hydrogen layers will be set on fire over Israel by an atomic blast, and then they will burn like the Hindenburg blimp. When the ozone and hydrogen burn, it will form hot water vapor that will condense into water droplets that will then become rain, which will form great hailstones that will fall to the earth along with torrential rain. When the atmosphere burns, the heavens will roll up as a scroll all the way around the earth, over every nation.[/SIZE]

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq.

Who gave you the right to take an analogy out of its context and apply it willy-nilly everywhere and anywhere you please?!

Really? The stars of heaven represent the "Army of Heaven - The Tribes - The Saints"? So, is that what they mean here?

You have a few minor errors that have escalated to a major one. First of all, the mother mentioned in Genesis 37:9-11 (the dream that Yowceef-Joseph had and shared with his family), represented by the moon, was Lee'aah-Leah, not Raacheel-Rachel! This dream happened when Yowceef was already 17 years old (Genesis 37:2), and Raacheel died in childbirth with Binyamiyn-Benjamin (Genesis 35:18), probably when Yowceef was less that 5 years old. The only mother - the wife of his father - that he knew at the time was Lee'aah!

Lee'aah was the only stepmother Yowceef had who would know that he ascended to the throne of Pharaoh in Egypt!

Furthermore, the prophecy found within this dream was FULFILLED in Yowceef's lifetime! The word meaning "to bow down (as to royalty)" is "shaataah," used in Genesis 37:9 and 10. The word is also found in Genesis 42:6 and 43:26 and 28:

The word is used again in Genesis 47:27-31:

And, if Yisra'eel-Isra'el bowed himself to Yowceef, you can be sure that Lee'aah did as well. Everyone, with the exception of the Pharaoh and perhaps his heirs, would have bowed to Yowceef in Mizraim-Egypt as Pharaoh's second in command.

Thus, the prophecy was FULFILLED!

It is wrong, therefore, to YANK the analogy OUT OF ITS CONTEXT and try to apply it anywhere else! The ONLY other context in which it would be applicable are those contexts that quote the first context, whether directly or indirectly. An example would be Revelation 12:1ff:

This appears to be an indirect reference to this dream/prophecy of Yowceef, suggesting that the woman appears to represent the children of Isra'el as a nation. (Of course, it could also be a DIRECT reference to the constellation Virgo, also representing Isra'el, in the Mazzaarowt (the Zodiac, Job 38:32), giving the precise time of the year and month by where the sun and the moon appear in the constellation. (She's pictured "wearing the sun" as clothes and having "the moon under her feet.")

No one has "changed the Scripture concerning the stars of heaven and the people of God." Who do you think you are to insert your own far-fetched interpretations into the Scriptures to make them unintelligible and change their simple meaning? In Genesis 15:1-6; 22:15-18; and 26:3-6, all that was meant by the saying is, "You're not going to be able to count your children any better than you can count the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore!" And, Genesis 32:24-30 simply passed this promise on to Yitschaq, Avraham's son.

Today, it is estimated that there are between 13 and 14 MILLION Jews in the world, but that's just those who CAN safely report their populations and may not include all of those who are descendants from the other tribes. Furthermore, new pockets of Jewish populations are found each year in some of the most unlikely places!

Then, you asked, "Who told you that you have the right to teach the machinations of your own vain imagination as truth?" And, I say, "Right back at ya', buddy!" Who told you that YOU have the right to teach the nonsense of YOUR own vain imagination as truth?!

To your question, "Who whispered in your ear to water down the Word so as to insert your own fleshly perverse mindset into it?" I answer this: I'm not "watering down the Word"; I'm washing the filth of your teachings OFF of God's pure Word! JUST READ! Let it sink INTO you; quit trying to OVERLAY YOUR thoughts on His Word, passing them off as though they were a part of His Word!

Looks like Daq and Retro are writing another book

Arnie your buddy Retro is the one running around bragging about writing his new book which surely will be available soon at a discount for all the forum members here that by chance might be willing to eat food sacrificed to his idols. :)

So Retro I guess this means that in Retro-world if your mother dies while you are still young she is not you mother anymore? In addition you might want to read Genesis again because Jacob served Laban for twenty years and six of those years were for the cattle after Joseph was born. Joseph was six or seven years old even before Jacob returned to Canaan from Aram-Syria. Moreover it appears you care nothing about the prophetic implications for the New Covenant when you butcher and slash anything that gets in the way of your pet theories:

Jeremiah 31:15-18
15. Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16. Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17. And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

Matthew 2:17-19
17. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18. In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

I suppose according to the Retro theory this is yet another instance where the Scripture is simply misunderstood by the rest of us because, according to the Retro theory, there is no possible way Rachel could have been weeping for her children in the days of Herod when she was already dead so long before that. In fact, according to the Retro theory, it must have been Leah who was weeping over the children of Rachel! :lol: BUFFOONERY!

It's also possible that the LORD'S "sword" is a comet, since that is the shape the tail takes on from earth's vantage point!

From all of the different Scripture passages that speak of the sword of the Lord you come up with a literal comet which in those days would have been called a star? Perhaps the truth is that it is simply more convenient for you to believe such a thing just so that you may continue to believe and teach others that the signs in the heavens are all literal and physical. However, it is not surprising that you would come up with such an answer seeing how your fathers did the same thing because they also served the mind of the flesh, the belly of the flesh, and all things physical.

ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ 7:43 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἀνελάβετε τὴν σκηνὴν τοῦ Μολόχ καὶ τὸ ἄστρον τοῦ θεοῦ Ῥομφά, τοὺς τύπους οὓς ἐποιήσατε προσκυνεῖν αὐτοῖς. καὶ μετοικιῶ ὑμᾶς ἐπέκεινα Βαβυλῶνος.
http://biblehub.com/text/acts/7-43.htm

Acts 7:43
43. And you took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of the god Rhompha, forged-images which ye made to bow to them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

GSN#4501a Ῥομφά - Rhompha
http://biblehub.com/topical/r/rephan.htm

GSN#4501 Ῥομφαίᾳ - Rhomphaia
http://biblesuite.com/greek/4501.htm

http://www.timesofisrael.com/dutch-govt-planning-decree-to-regulate-ritual-slaughter/

Keep that star shiny and sharp Retro!

They say it is "inhumane" to murder your bloody steak if the edge of your mirror-blade has any flaws or nicks in it when you do your deeds. This was surely the most "kosher" file I could find to post here as the rest were so bloody and gruesome I would not even think to post them in a forum such as this. :)

[SIZE=10pt]Revelation 6:12[/SIZE]–14 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 And [/SIZE]the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;[SIZE=10pt] and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 34:1[/SIZE]–8 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]4 And [/SIZE]all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: [SIZE=10pt]and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Another Old Testament prophet, Isaiah, also foresaw the nuclear war and he prophesied that the heavens will burn and roll up as a scroll. Apparently, all of the airplanes and nuclear missiles will fall from the sky during the war when the atmosphere burns. This judgment will be on all nations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Isaiah 51:5[/SIZE]–11 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, [/SIZE]and the earth shall wax old like a garment,[SIZE=10pt] and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Heat + oxygen + hydrogen = H2O (water) + greater heat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]The ozone and hydrogen layers will be set on fire over Israel by an atomic blast, and then they will burn like the Hindenburg blimp. When the ozone and hydrogen burn, it will form hot water vapor that will condense into water droplets that will then become rain, which will form great hailstones that will fall to the earth along with torrential rain. When the atmosphere burns, the heavens will roll up as a scroll all the way around the earth, over every nation.[/SIZE]

Is there anyone here willing to hear what the Scripture might have to say about this or is it only an all out nuclear war?

Anyone?

Revelation 6:14 KJV
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; [GSN#1507 heilisso] and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Original Strong's Ref. #1507
Romanized heilisso
Pronounced hi-lis'-so
a prolonged form of a primary but defective verb heilo (of the same meaning); to coil or wrap:
KJV--roll together. See also GSN1667.

Psalms 102:18-28 KJV
18. This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord.
19. For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20. To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
21. To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
22. When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord.
23. He Weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24. I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27. But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28. The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

Hebrews 1:9-13 KJV
9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12. And as a vesture shalt thou fold [GSN#1667 helisso] them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Original Strong's Ref. #1667
Romanized helisso
Pronounced hel-is'-so
a form of GSN1507; to coil or wrap:
KJV--fold up.

John 20:3-8 KJV
3. Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5. And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6. Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7. And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together [GSN#1794 entelisso] in a place by itself ["eis hena topon" ~ "into one place"].
8. Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

Original Strong's Ref. #1794
Romanized entulisso
Pronounced en-too-lis'-so
from GSN1722 and tulisso (to twist; probably akin to GSN1507); to entwine, i.e. wind up in:
KJV--wrap in (together).

Ya'll ur 'bout two thousand-year-days late, a tsebiy-gazelle shy of the truth, and WWIII will rightly be blamed upon yourselves.
You and all your wise prophecy teachers have taught your world leaders that they can have their war and blame it on my Father.

 

[guysmith]

GuySmith ..... some random thoughts

---it says the sun and moon "turn" different colors ... it may not be because of something tossed into the atmosphere

--- I also have a hard time with all the stars in the sky falling to earth .... to me it is impossible .

Hello Arnie,

To me, the stars falling to earth are asteroids. When Christ comes, He comes with the tabernacle of God (Rev 21). When the tabernacle passes through the asteroid belt, it probably will nudge a few asteroids our way.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Arnie your buddy Retro is the one running around bragging about writing his new book which surely will be available soon at a discount for all the forum members here that by chance might be willing to eat food sacrificed to his idols. :)

So Retro I guess this means that in Retro-world if your mother dies while you are still young she is not you mother anymore? In addition you might want to read Genesis again because Jacob served Laban for twenty years and six of those years were for the cattle after Joseph was born. Joseph was six or seven years old even before Jacob returned to Canaan from Aram-Syria. Moreover it appears you care nothing about the prophetic implications for the New Covenant when you butcher and slash anything that gets in the way of your pet theories:

Jeremiah 31:15-18
15. Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16. Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17. And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

Matthew 2:17-19
17. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18. In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19. But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

I suppose according to the Retro theory this is yet another instance where the Scripture is simply misunderstood by the rest of us because, according to the Retro theory, there is no possible way Rachel could have been weeping for her children in the days of Herod when she was already dead so long before that. In fact, according to the Retro theory, it must have been Leah who was weeping over the children of Rachel! :lol: BUFFOONERY!


From all of the different Scripture passages that speak of the sword of the Lord you come up with a literal comet which in those days would have been called a star? Perhaps the truth is that it is simply more convenient for you to believe such a thing just so that you may continue to believe and teach others that the signs in the heavens are all literal and physical. However, it is not surprising that you would come up with such an answer seeing how your fathers did the same thing because they also served the mind of the flesh, the belly of the flesh, and all things physical.

ΠΡΑΞΕΙΣ 7:43 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἀνελάβετε τὴν σκηνὴν τοῦ Μολόχ καὶ τὸ ἄστρον τοῦ θεοῦ Ῥομφά, τοὺς τύπους οὓς ἐποιήσατε προσκυνεῖν αὐτοῖς. καὶ μετοικιῶ ὑμᾶς ἐπέκεινα Βαβυλῶνος.
http://biblehub.com/text/acts/7-43.htm

Acts 7:43
43. And you took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of the god Rhompha, forged-images which ye made to bow to them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

GSN#4501a Ῥομφά - Rhompha
http://biblehub.com/topical/r/rephan.htm

GSN#4501 Ῥομφαίᾳ - Rhomphaia
http://biblesuite.com/greek/4501.htm

http://www.timesofisrael.com/dutch-govt-planning-decree-to-regulate-ritual-slaughter/

Keep that star shiny and sharp Retro!

They say it is "inhumane" to murder your bloody steak if the edge of your mirror-blade has any flaws or nicks in it when you do your deeds. This was surely the most "kosher" file I could find to post here as the rest were so bloody and gruesome I would not even think to post them in a forum such as this. :)


Is there anyone here willing to hear what the Scripture might have to say about this or is it only an all out nuclear war?

Anyone?

Revelation 6:14 KJV
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; [GSN#1507 heilisso] and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Original Strong's Ref. #1507
Romanized heilisso
Pronounced hi-lis'-so
a prolonged form of a primary but defective verb heilo (of the same meaning); to coil or wrap:
KJV--roll together. See also GSN1667.

Psalms 102:18-28 KJV
18. This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord.
19. For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20. To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
21. To declare the name of the Lord in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
22. When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the Lord.
23. He Weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
24. I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27. But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28. The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

Hebrews 1:9-13 KJV
9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11. They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12. And as a vesture shalt thou fold [GSN#1667 helisso] them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Original Strong's Ref. #1667
Romanized helisso
Pronounced hel-is'-so
a form of GSN1507; to coil or wrap:
KJV--fold up.

John 20:3-8 KJV
3. Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5. And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6. Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7. And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together [GSN#1794 entelisso] in a place by itself ["eis hena topon" ~ "into one place"].
8. Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

Original Strong's Ref. #1794
Romanized entulisso
Pronounced en-too-lis'-so
from GSN1722 and tulisso (to twist; probably akin to GSN1507); to entwine, i.e. wind up in:
KJV--wrap in (together).

Ya'll ur 'bout two thousand-year-days late, a tsebiy-gazelle shy of the truth, and WWIII will rightly be blamed upon yourselves.
You and all your wise prophecy teachers have taught your world leaders that they can have their war and blame it on my Father.

Daq,

You missed some of my post.

God will cause man to fight a nuclear war, which will destroy and thin the atmosphere and let more meteors impact the earth.

Jeremiah 25:15-17,
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

[SIZE=16pt] (((God cause man to fight man by nuclear war)))[/SIZE]
31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

If you read it Daq, you will see that it will be God that sends out the cup of judgment that causes men to send evil whirlwinds from nation to nation. I f I was you I wouldn't take the credit from God to give it to prophecy teachers.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hello Arnie,

To me, the stars falling to earth are asteroids. When Christ comes, He comes with the tabernacle of God (Rev 21). When the tabernacle passes through the asteroid belt, it probably will nudge a few asteroids our way.

Guy

I have considered that as well (and tend to agree) .... I have a meteorite collection ,,,,, they are asteroids that have made it to earth without completely burning up in the atmosphere. I take great interest in such things. (hobbyist)

But set that aside for a minute Guy .... I know you are a deep thinker .... do you think maybe this whole revelation 6:12 thing is the reverse of Genesis (creation)

For example God made the earth , sun , planets , stars , and then ... "stretched them out to the heavens'' .... in rev 6 does He ... "roll it all back up again " ??

Maybe when God "returns" he will reverse the procedure .... eg: ... roll up the sky .... bring the stars all back real close .... bring Himself real close as well (return to earth)

I have given a rather convoluted theory .... but knowing you , you will catch my drift.

My thoughts venture out into those considerations , because the typical reading of revelation tends to sound improbable

I appreciate your rare and intriguing questions and thoughts

Arnie M

 

[guysmith]

... do you think maybe this whole revelation 6:12 thing is the reverse of Genesis (creation)

For example God made the earth , sun , planets , stars , and then ... "stretched them out to the heavens'' .... in rev 6 does He ... "roll it all back up again " ??

Maybe when God "returns" he will reverse the procedure .... eg: ... roll up the sky .... bring the stars all back real close .... bring Himself real close as well (return to earth)

I have given a rather convoluted theory .... but knowing you , you will catch my drift.

Hi Arnie,

This is one possibility. There are a few possible explanations and this is one of those things that we probably won't get an answer too until Christ's advent. However, your observations are about events which take place on TDOL. The wonders in the heavens (sun black / moon red) takes place before the TDOL.

Joel 2:31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

I know you spend time pondering these things. Do you have any ideas on what may cause the light of the sun to be blocked out?

Guy

 

[daq]

Daq,

You missed some of my post.

God will cause man to fight a nuclear war, which will destroy and thin the atmosphere and let more meteors impact the earth.

Jeremiah 25:15-17,
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

[SIZE=16pt] (((God cause man to fight man by nuclear war)))[/SIZE]
31A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

If you read it Daq, you will see that it will be God that sends out the cup of judgment that causes men to send evil whirlwinds from nation to nation. I f I was you I wouldn't take the credit from God to give it to prophecy teachers.

Believe it or not I actually did read all of your post but simply did not quote all of it. So tell me what do you think actually happened at the Cross of Messiah at Golgotha? There was darkness over all the earth from the sixth hour to the ninth hour and the Scripture clearly foretells by the mouth of David that many strong bulls, bulls of Bashan, ravening lions, and dogs were present at the crucifixion of Yeshua; even the same word from Isaiah 34, r'emiym, ("unicorns" KJV) is in the passage:

Psalms 22:11-31 KJV
11. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28. For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Likewise the following Acts 4 passage clearly proclaims that Psalm 2 is also fulfilled:

Acts 4:23-28 KJV
23. And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25. Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28. For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Psalms 2:1-12 KJV
1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2. The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3. Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.
8. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. [Re: Revelation 2:27 KJV]
10. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Likewise in Acts 2 at Shavuot-Pentecost Peter proclaims that the Joel prophecy quoted above my post herein was already fulfilled and even quotes the portion with the sun being turned into darkness and the moon being turned into blood. The crowd does not deny that these things had happened because they all saw them when Yeshua was crucified. The crowd therefore is cut to the heart and many repented:

Acts 2:15-38 KJV
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What then happened at Golgotha according to your understanding of "the sun having been darkened", (darkness over all the earth from the sixth hour to the ninth hour of the crucifixion) and "the moon having been turned into blood" Circa 30AD? Was that also an "all out nuclear war" in the first fulfillment of 30AD according to the clear statements of the Holy Spirit through Peter in Acts 2, which clearly quotes the same passage from Joel 2, and from where likewise Revelation 6:12 is obviously taken? Or do you suppose that both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, the Chief Priests and Sadducees, the Pharisees, Elders, Scribes, and the people of Israel were all gathered together to plant a "suitcase mini-nuke" at Skull Hill? :lol:

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Arnie.

Looks like Daq and Retro are writing another book

Sorry about the lengthy interchange between Daq and myself. He just needs to know that it's not "his way or the highway." There are other opinions JUST AS VALID AS HIS ARE, and in my opinion, MORE valid! I think more of your opinion and that of Guysmith and Eric because I feel that your words are closer to the Scriptures as written than are his. I've been trying to remember to comment without so much quoting, but it's hard.

Shalom, guysmith.

Hello Arnie,

To me, the stars falling to earth are asteroids. When Christ comes, He comes with the tabernacle of God (Rev 21). When the tabernacle passes through the asteroid belt, it probably will nudge a few asteroids our way.

Whether the tail of a comet, asteroids, or some other such space junk, you're right about "the stars falling" being this debris. However, don't forget the timing. There is still a Millennium to come, falsely called by some the "Millennial Kingdom." While Yeshua` DOES reign during that time period, it is actually the "Millennium of haSatan's Lockdown." It merely HAPPENS to coincide with the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign. Don't forget, though, that His reign is eternal:

Luke 1:30-33

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
KJV

Revelation 20:1-8

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

Although for a part of the time (the Millennium) He will reign on God the Father's behalf, the rest of the time (for eternity) He will reign subserviently to the Father:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

THAT'S what makes the difference between the Kingdom DURING the Millennium and the Kingdom AFTER the Millennium. (It's also a good reason not to forget the Trinity!)