The Wonders in the Heavens

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, Guestman.

Sorry, I'm not buying what you're trying to sell. Here's the Greek of Revelation 1:1-2:


Apokalupsis 1:1
1 Apokalupsis Ieesou Christou heen edooken autoo ho Theos deixai tois doulois autou ha dei genesthai en tachei, kai eseemanen aposteilas dia tou aggelou autou too douloo autou Iooannee,
2 hos emartureesen ton logon tou Theou kai teen marturian Ieesou Christou hosa eiden.
Greek New Testament

1 Apokalupsis = 1 A-revelation
Ieesou = of-Yeshua`
Christou = Messiah
heen = which
edooken = he-gave
autoo = to-him
ho = the
Theos = God
deixai = to-show
tois = to-the
doulois = slaves
autou = of-him/his
ha = things-which
dei = must
genesthai = come-to-pass/happen
en = in
tachei, = a-short-time,
kai = and
eseemanen = he-signified/indicated
aposteilas = he-singled-out-(for a mission)
dia = through
tou = the
aggelou = messenger
autou = of-him/his
too = to-the
douloo = slave
autou = of-him/his
Iooannee, = Yochanan/John,
2 hos = 2 who
emartureesen = testified
ton = of-the
logon = word
tou = of-the
Theou = God
kai = and
teen = of-the
marturian = testimony
Ieesou = of-Yeshua`
Christou = Messiah
hosa = of-all-things
eiden. = he-saw.

1 A-revelation of-Yeshua` Messiah which he-gave to-him the God to-show to-the slaves of-him/his things-which must come-to-pass/happen in a-short-time, and he-signified/indicated he-singled-out-(for a mission) through the messenger of-him/his to-the slave of-him/his Yochanan/John,
2 who testified of-the word of-the God and of-the testimony of-Yeshua` Messiah of-all-things he-saw.

1 A revelation of Messiah Yeshua` which God gave to Him to show to his slaves things which must come to pass in a short time, and He indicated through His messenger He singled out (for a mission) to His slave Yochanan,
2 who testified of God's word and of the testimony of Messiah Yeshua` of all things he saw.

NT:4591 seemainoo (say-mah'-ee-no); from seema (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate:
KJV - signify.

NT:4592 seemeion (say-mi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:
KJV - miracle, sign, token, wonder.

NT:4593 seemeio-oo (say-mi-o'-o); from NT:4592; to distinguish, i.e. mark (for avoidance):
KJV - note.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It does NOT mean that it was "presented in signs!" Those are YOUR words (or the words of the translator upon whom you're relying) and are NOT what the Greek is saying AT ALL!

You're FISHING for anything that might lend authenticity to your argument. Try again.
 

Guestman

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Retrobyter

I am not trying to "sell" anything to you, but am following in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) to provide accurate Scriptural information that teaches others what the Bible really says. Regardless of whether you accept or reject it, has no bearing on what is presented. That is why Jesus quoted from Isaiah 6 concerning the Jews, though he was the promised Messiah.

The vast majority never "got the sense" of the kingdom, what it is, who and how many are the ones involved, for what purpose was it created. Isaiah was told by Jehovah God in his day (his prophetic work covered from about 778-732 B.C.E.): "Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get (spiritual) healing for themselves.”(Isa 6:9, 10)


Through the illustration of the "sower" at Matthew 13:3-8, Jesus explained that the "kingdom seed" would be scattered everywhere, but those whose heart is represented by "the rocky places" would be "scorched" (tribulation or persecution, Matt 13:21) because of having no real Scriptural depth, just as the "kingdom seed" falling among the "thorns" (anxiety and deceptive power of riches, Matt 13:22) would be choked it before it could get a real foothold.


Jesus identified that only the heart condition that is the "fine seed" would bear "fruit". Hence, Jesus concluded with the words: "Let him that ears listen."(Matt 13:9) Few applied this by listening carefully so as to "get the sense of it"(Greek syniemi)


And quoting the Greek is not a teaching "tool", since almost all cannot read literal Greek. Jesus did not go around quoting a language that his audience did not understand, but rather used illustrations that showed his capableness as a teacher.


On the other hand, explaining key Hebrew or Greek words helps individuals to grasp what what is meant by a particular Scripture. And words are part of a sentence that must be understood as a group, with the context needing to be seriously considered.


It is as Jesus said of the Jews, especially of the Jewish religious leaders: "Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel !"(Matt 23:24) These missed the meaning of the Law, in fact adding to it that was not there, such as increasing Sabbath restrictions to 39, along with innumerable lesser restrictions, that when compiled, filled two large volumes, in which catching a flea was forbidden as hunting.


Hence, most lack the proper understanding of the Bible, often going in circles, just as the Jews did from Isaiah's time down till today, thinking that the Mosaic Law is still in operation.(see Gal 3:23-25; Heb 8:13)
 

dragonfly

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Hi Guestman,

In response to your closing comment about the law of Moses, what was Paul referring to here, in your understanding?

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Which law to God, and which law to Christ?
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Guestman.

Guestman said:
Retrobyter

I am not trying to "sell" anything to you, but am following in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) to provide accurate Scriptural information that teaches others what the Bible really says. Regardless of whether you accept or reject it, has no bearing on what is presented. That is why Jesus quoted from Isaiah 6 concerning the Jews, though he was the promised Messiah.

The vast majority never "got the sense" of the kingdom, what it is, who and how many are the ones involved, for what purpose was it created. Isaiah was told by Jehovah God in his day (his prophetic work covered from about 778-732 B.C.E.): "Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get (spiritual) healing for themselves.”(Isa 6:9, 10)

Through the illustration of the "sower" at Matthew 13:3-8, Jesus explained that the "kingdom seed" would be scattered everywhere, but those whose heart is represented by "the rocky places" would be "scorched" (tribulation or persecution, Matt 13:21) because of having no real Scriptural depth, just as the "kingdom seed" falling among the "thorns" (anxiety and deceptive power of riches, Matt 13:22) would be choked it before it could get a real foothold.

Jesus identified that only the heart condition that is the "fine seed" would bear "fruit". Hence, Jesus concluded with the words: "Let him that ears listen."(Matt 13:9) Few applied this by listening carefully so as to "get the sense of it"(Greek syniemi)

And quoting the Greek is not a teaching "tool", since almost all cannot read literal Greek. Jesus did not go around quoting a language that his audience did not understand, but rather used illustrations that showed his capableness as a teacher.

On the other hand, explaining key Hebrew or Greek words helps individuals to grasp what what is meant by a particular Scripture. And words are part of a sentence that must be understood as a group, with the context needing to be seriously considered.

It is as Jesus said of the Jews, especially of the Jewish religious leaders: "Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel !"(Matt 23:24) These missed the meaning of the Law, in fact adding to it that was not there, such as increasing Sabbath restrictions to 39, along with innumerable lesser restrictions, that when compiled, filled two large volumes, in which catching a flea was forbidden as hunting.

Hence, most lack the proper understanding of the Bible, often going in circles, just as the Jews did from Isaiah's time down till today, thinking that the Mosaic Law is still in operation.(see Gal 3:23-25; Heb 8:13)
Name dropper! You don't know how many times that old "hide me behind the pulpit" garbage has been the "magic fall-back" for millions of Bible "expositors!" "Following in Jesus' footsteps," indeed. Many down through the years have killed MILLIONS of Jews and believers "following in Jesus' footsteps!" Stand up and be a man!

You DON'T know what you're talking about! The "Mosaic" Law IS still in operation, and I'm GLAD it is!

Both you and dragonfly need to understand that the word "without" in the English versions (particularly the KJV) comes from the Greek word,...


NT:5565 chooris (kho-rece'); adverb from NT:5561; at a space, i.e. separately or apart from (often as preposition):
KJV - beside, by itself, without.

NT:5561 choora (kho'-rah); feminine of a derivative of the base of NT:5490 through the idea of empty expanse; room, i.e. a space of territory (more or less extensive; often including its inhabitants):
KJV - coast, county, fields, ground, land, region. Compare NT:5117.

NT:5490 chasma (khas'-mah); from a form of an obsolete prim chaoo (to "gape" or "yawn"); a "chasm" or vacancy (impassable interval):
KJV - gulf.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

We would use the word "outside" instead of the old King's English word "without," today. Thus, "without the Law" means "separated from the Law" or "outside the Law," whether unwillingly, as the Gentiles of old, or willingly, as the "lawless one" will. It does NOT mean or imply an abolishing of the Law!

That's different from the word,...

NT:460 anomoos (an-om'-oce); adverb from NT:459; lawlessly, i.e. (specially) not amenable to (the Jewish) law:
KJV - without law.


NT:459 anomos (an'-om-os); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and NT:3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:
KJV - without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

NT:1 a (al'-fah); of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet; figuratively, only (from its use as a numeral) the first:
KJV - Alpha. Often used (usually an, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from NT:427) in the sense of privation; so, in many words, beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of NT:260).

NT:3551 nomos (nom'-os); from a primary nemoo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):
KJV - law.


NT:427 aneu (an'-yoo); a primary particle; without:
KJV - without. Compare NT:1.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

One must know the difference between these words and where they are used:

Strong's Greek number 459 (anomos) is found in Mark 15:28; Luke 22:37; Acts 2:23; 1 Corinthians 9:21 (4 times); 2 Thessalonians 2:8; 1 Timothy 1:9; and 2 Peter 2:8, a total of 10 times.

Strong's Greek number 460 (anomoos) is found twice in Romans 2:12.

Strong's Greek number 5565 (chooris) is found 41 times in Matthew 13:34; 14:21; 15:38; Mark 4:34; Luke 6:49; John 1:3; 15:5; 20:7; Romans 3:21, 28; 4:6; 7:8, 9; 10:14; 1 Corinthians 4:8; 11:11 (twice); 2 Corinthians 11:28; 12:3; Ephesians 2:12; Philippians 2:14; 1 Timothy 2:8; 5:21; Philemon 14; Hebrews 4:15; 7:7, 20, 21; 9:7, 18, 22, 28; 10:28; 11:6, 40; 12:8, 14; James 2:18, 20, and 26 (twice).


Romans 3:19-4:8
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ (the Messiah) unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`):
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus (Yeshua`).
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without (outside) the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on (trusts in) him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without (outside of) works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
KJV

Galatians 2:11-4:11

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (the Messiah), even we have believed in Jesus Christ (the Messiah), that we might be justified by the faith of Christ (a trust of a Messiah), and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ (the Messiah), we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ (the Messiah): nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ (the Messiah) liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ (the Messiah) is dead in vain.
3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ (the Messiah) hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth (serves) to you the Spirit, and worketh (works) miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel (announced prior to the good news) unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident (obvious): for, The just shall live by faith. (a quote from Chavaqquwq's prophecy, Hab. 2:4: and-a-justified in-his-security/confidence shall-live.)
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (Lev. 18:5: Adam/the-whole-human-race shall-live/revive in-them.)
13 Christ (the Messiah) hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah); that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ (the Messiah).
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ (the Messiah), the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture (the law) hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster (teacher) to bring us unto Christ (the Messiah), that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ (the Messiah) Jesus (Yeshua`).
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`).
29 And if ye be Christ's (of the Messiah), then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba (Daddy), Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ (the Messiah).
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
KJV


We may be freed from the CONSEQUENCES of the Law from God's perspective, but would you really WANT to be free from the LAW?! Just look at our society in the USA today! Do you WANT people to be free from "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not steal?" Can you imagine the ANARCHY?! It's bad enough that we've lost the importance of "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Honor thy father and mother" and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's things!"

-----

Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.


dragonfly said:
Hi Guestman,

In response to your closing comment about the law of Moses, what was Paul referring to here, in your understanding?

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Which law to God, and which law to Christ?


Currently, the U.S. Government is shut down. Technically, then, we are not "under the law" of the United States of America as a one-nation unity; although we ARE "under the law" of each individual, independent, autonomous state! (Of course, that is not completely true; I'm sure that the FBI, the CIA, Homeland Security, and the essentials of the military branches are going on, as usual. We can't survive TOTAL anarchy. Only the lesser aspects, like national parks, of the Government are truly "shut down.")

God ruled as King over Isra'el for a time until the people demanded a king like the other nations surrounding them had. God installed a king and a dynasty that came from a "man after God's own heart," David. From Him came the promised Messiah, the culmination of the promise to Avraham. And, Yeshua` the Messiah said,...


John 5:19-30
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV


God's Law (the one given to Mosheh or Moses) consisted of 613 commandments. Yeshua`s Law - the SAME as God's Law - was reduced to 2 commandments! God's Law was written on tables of stone; Yeshua`s Law will be written on the hearts of His people, on tables of flesh.

One day, Yeshua` will come again and will indeed be in charge of this Earth as a King of kings, a World Emperor, and people will LITERALLY bow the knee to Him as their King and Emperor, just as Isra'el did bow to His Father in the wilderness! It was foretold and it WILL come to pass.
 

Guestman

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In order to gain insight into Revelation 6:12, it is necessary to start from the beginning, at Revelation 6:1 and grasp what occurs in a chronological order. After Jesus gives corrective counsel "to the seven congregations" (Rev 1:11; chps 2 and 3), the time frame now shifts from the 1st century to "the Lord's day".(Rev 1:10)

At Revelation 6:1, 2, the opening of the 1st seal is seen, in which the "four living creatures" (cherubs, Eze 1:5; 10:15, 16) calls forth for a rider on "a white horse" who has "a bow" and "a crown was given him", whereby he goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest." Who is this rider on "a white horse" ? Jesus Christ, who was crowned as king of God's kingdom in 1914, riding a "white horse" that stands for righteous warfare.(see Prov 21:31; Rev 19:11, 13)

Having " a bow" (symbol of warfare, 2 Chron 26:14, 15), he now uses it to conquer and "complete his conquest." This conquest of his enemies began in 1914 with the ouster of Satan and his demons from heaven down to the earth (Rev 12:7-9), causing great "woe" for the earth (Rev 12:12), with the second seal immediately being opened next, in which a rider upon "a fiery-colored horse" comes forth. This rider is "granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him."(Rev 6:3, 4)

This is the first time in human history for "peace to be taken away from the earth", with the outbreak of World War I, that began on July 28, 1914. They indeed slaughtered one another with "a great sword", for almost 9 million died and 21 million wounded, eventually involving some 93 percent of the world's population.

This resulted in famine, for with the opening of the third seal, the rider on a "black horse" comes forth, carrying "a pair of scales". Hence, from the time of Jesus being enthroned as king, food shortages would be a common occurrence, with food prices taking much of a person's wages in many lands.(Rev 6:3, 4)

Of course, war brings casualties or death, for with the opening of the fourth seal, the next rider upon "a pale horse", Death (with Hades or the grave closely following), was given authority "over a fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and deadly plague and by the wild beast of the earth."(Rev 6:7, 8)

The slaughter was on, and there was no limits on how many were to be taken in death or by what means, for mankind was in the throes of savage warfare, with new technological means being developed to massacre people down till right now, as well other means of death.

During the 20th century, it has been estimated that over 100 million people died from warfare and another 50 to perhaps 100 million died as a result of the Spanish Influenza of 1918-20.(Note: In the "State of the World 1999", the Worldwatch Institute (April 29, 1999) said that :"Three times as many people--110 million--fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899 ” )

With the opening of the 5th seal, because of nationalism rearing it head with the outbreak of WWI and onward, those who remained neutral with regard to the political governments, those who strictly adhered to Jesus words to be "no part of the world" (John 15:19), were at times put to death.

As a result, underneath "the altar" were the "souls of those slaughtered because of (obedience to ) the word of God and because of the witness work (Rev 6:9-11, of teaching people about Jehovah God and his kingdom government from "house to house", Matt 10:11-13) These righteous ones were each given "a white robe", standing for their righteous acts of being "no part of the world", standing separate and their obedience to Jesus command at Matthew 28:19, 20.

Now, the 6th seal is opened, so that "a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the entire moon became as blood."(Rev 6:12) The grand work of making disciples has now come to an end, for Jesus said that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."(Matt 24:14)

With a symbolic "great earthquake" happening and in which the ' sun becomes black as black hair and moon becoming as blood ', this forebodes death for all not on Jehovah's side and the beginning of "the war of the great day of God Almighty", called Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16) John further sees that "the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind casts its unripe fruits."(Rev 6:13)

This symbolically happened to ancient Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. when Babylon conquered the land. Jeremiah 4:28 says that "on this account the land will mourn, and the heavens above will certainly become dark." The land became a "desolate waste" in which Jehovah carried "out a sheer extermination".(Jer 4:27)

Almost 70 years later, Babylon was now the one that would become "dark", "for the very stars of the heavens and their constellations of Kesil will not flash forth their light; the sun will actually grow dark at its going forth, and the moon itself will not cause its light to shine" (Isa 13:10) when Medo-Persia took her down on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E. All that she looked to for security failed.

Likewise at Armageddon, chaos will now reign, with the economic and political systems collapsing.(The false religious "harlot", called Babylon the Great [Rev 17:1, 2, 5], will already have been destroyed, Matt 24:15; Rev 18:8) It will as if the "sun" became black, with no light emanating from it and the "moon became as blood". What people of the nations looked to for "salvation", from governmental to scientific to economic organizations, will fail on them.

Both the economic and political governments and organizations that are thought of as "mountains" or as a "rock-masses" will be looked to for protection, with even "the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders" as well all others crying out to the "mountains and...the rock-masses" to "Fall over us."(see Luke 23:28-31)

But it is to late, for Jesus has judged "the nations" and separated the "sheep" from the "goats" (Matt 25:31-33), those who failed to assist Jesus "brothers" (Matt 25:41-46, who are joint-heirs as rulers with Jesus in heaven, Rom 8:17) in their God-given assignment of making known "the good news of the kingdom".(Matt 24:14)

In giving what his invisible "presence" (Matt 24:3) would entail at the end, Jesus said that "immediately after the tribulation of those days (after the total annihilation of false religion, Babylon the Great, at the hands of the United Nations ["scarlet-colored wild beast", Rev 17:3] directing the "ten horns" or all the political governments on the earth to "burn it completely with fire" [starting with Christendom], Rev 17:12, 16, 17) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."(Matt 24:29, 30)

The "world" or Satan's entire system of things will come crashing down (1 John 2:17) in a 2 part series (Babylon the Great 1st at the beginning of the "great tribulation" at the hands of the "disgusting thing" [United Nations], Matt 24:15, 21) Then, the remaining greedy commerce ("traveling merchants", Rev 18:11, 15) and political system ("the wild beast", Rev 13: 1, 2), as well anything else left over in opposition to Jehovah God (see Matt 12:30), with "the Son of man", Jesus Christ, leading his angelic armies against them (Rev 19:11-15) and completely wiping them off the face of the earth.(Rev 19:19-21) Only a "great crowd" of loyal servants of Jehovah will then remain.(Rev 7:9, 14)

dragonfly said:
Hi Guestman,

In response to your closing comment about the law of Moses, what was Paul referring to here, in your understanding?

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

Which law to God, and which law to Christ?
At 1 Corinthians 9:21, you actually answered your own question, for the account speaks of "the law to Christ". Paul, in writing to the Galatians, said to "go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ."(Gal 6:2) This is not the Mosaic Law that the nation of Israel was to carefully follow. Paul established that we are "not without law to God, but under the law to Christ".

Back a few chapters in Galatians, Paul says the Mosaic Law "was added to make transgressions manifest until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made".(Gal 3:19) He adds that the "law", by means of Scripture, "delivered up all things to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith."(Gal 3:21, 22) The Mosaic Law pointed toward and led up to Jesus Christ.

Now Paul says that "before the faith arrived, we (the Jews) were being guarded under (the Mosaic) law.....looking for the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the (Mosaic) Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith (and not by the Mosaic Law, which just showed everyone as a sinner, in need of a redeemer)."(Gal 3:23, 24)

Paul completes this, saying that "now that the faith (through Jesus Christ) has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor (the Mosaic Law)."(Gal 3:25; see also Col 2:14) In writing to the Hebrews, Paul told them: "In his saying "a new covenant" (see Jer 31:31), he has made the former one (the Mosaic Law) obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away."(Heb 8:13; see also Heb 8:7)

A "new covenant" replaced the old "Law" covenant that was never intended to remain forever, for "by (the Mosaic) law no one is declared righteous with God."(Gal 3:11) Remaining under the Mosaic Law only showed us as sinners and led to death, for no provision was available to permanently remove sin.(see Heb 9:13)

And, the "law of the Christ" is the principles and guidelines through Jesus Christ for us to follow when he walked the earth. He established that we are to "love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment."(Matt 22:37, 38)

He further says: "The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”(Matt 22:39, 40) Obeying these two commandments to the best of our ability means we are adhering to "the law of the Christ", and that we are "not without law to God."
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Guestman.

What I've said to the Full Preterists and Amillennialists, I say to you also: If Yeshua` began His reign in 1914, then His Kingdom is the weakest, most ineffectual kingdom in the world!

I think it would be a DISGRACE for Him to admit that His Kingdom currently exists! The world is DEGENERATING, not getting better! We're seeing evidence of haSatan's influence worldwide! Watchtowerites need to come back to the Bible and forget their silly, "spiritual" (falsely so called) interpretations OF the Bible!

Watchtowerites (a.k.a. "Jehovah's Witnesses," although I don't see ANY evidence of their "witness" for YHWH) have NOT replaced the children of Isra'el in prophecy anymore than any other group of "Christians" have! And they, too, must explain away a TON of Scripture to suggest otherwise!

For instance, how to you handle Zechariah 12-14? or Isaiah 10-66? How do you explain Joel 2-4? or ANY of the major Messianic prophecies that foretell His rescue of the nation Isra'el? Sorry, but your explanation of Revelation 6:1ff is WAY off!
 

Guestman

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Retrobyter

Jesus does not rule over the "world", which are those alienated from God, but over his loyal disciples (Col 1:13), for he told his apostles, to "go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations.....teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look ! I am with you (referring to all who loyally proclaim and teach "the good news of the kingdom") all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."(Matt 28:19, 20)


The apostle John wrote that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one (Satan)."(1 John 5:19) Hence, the "world" of mankind is degenerating, with more moral corruption and divisiveness than any time in history. This is a result of Satan's invisible rulership over the earth, for John, in the book of Revelation, wrote down that he is "misleading the entire inhabited earth."(Rev 12:9)


Since 1914, Jesus has "went out conquering and to complete his conquest."(Rev 6:2) He sat at Jehovah's "right hand" till 1914, having to wait for God to "place your enemies as a stool for your feet", and at which time he was told: "Go subduing (Heb. radah, literally meaning to "subjugate") in the midst of your enemies."(Ps 110:1, 2; see also Gen 1:28 where radah is used)


Jesus has 'subdued ' many by means of the preaching and teaching work, with these leaving the "world" and coming under his rulership as his loyal disciples. As a result, "your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force (or while "subduing" from 1914 till the end of the "world" in the near future, Matt 24:3)."(Ps 110:3)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Guestman.

Then you have an even BIGGER problem!


Revelation 20:1-8
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
KJV

Yeshua` is said to reign for His first 1000 years while haSatan is locked away in the abussos. How can the "whole world be lying in the power of the wicked one (Satan)"?